ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

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Fanblade
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ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by Fanblade » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:33 pm

As announced by ACPA today. They have called off merger discussions.

ACPA’s letter to pilots, lends one to believe this is ALPA’s fault. I doubt it if we heard both sides. Either way it looks like unity is dead. Just as expected mind you.

We at Air Canada will get a single shot at ridding ourselves of ACPA during the upcoming certification vote. It won’t happen otherwise.
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by FL-280 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:28 pm

Reality probably hit hard for the “doh gang” at Transat.... i say Alpa blowed of Acpa
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by altiplano » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:27 pm

Sounds like ALPA put a pause on ACPA with their leadership change, then ACPA did the same back... now there's too much on the table to revisit it at this point.

No way I'm voting ALPA without guaranteed Group A and roll call voting at the Canada Board post:merger. ALPA would be wise to make it clear that the previously negotiated terms will stand if a vote comes.
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by pilotbzh » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:40 pm

ACPA will look at ALPA after the aquisition of transat and the integration of the pilots.... DOH won't work for ACPA as virtually no AC pilot has a true DOH....
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by FL320 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:35 pm

Pardon my ignorance, but how is your seniority defined? From your Collective agreement 4.01.01 it looks like it is based on the date of employment (and before Nov 2010 it’s from date of remuneration). A merge DOH could work I guess?

On a side note, during the last days at the employee buses some senior AC Captains came to shake my hand to « welcome me aboard ». Real gentlemen, whatever the outcome that kind of positive attitude is very appreciated!
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by Ratherbe » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:26 pm

Altiplano
I agree with you on this one big time.
ALPAc has a long history of underestimating the will and solidarity of ACPA pilots when it gets down to the nitty gritty.
Obviously, they have pressured ALPA HQ to kill the efforts of a peer based merger with ALPA.
Bring on the vote! Lots of disillusioned former Jazz and WJ pilots on our list now that are not impressed with ALPA's recent performance in Canada.
If we vote overwhelming to stay with ACPA then when the whole merger is over we can talk again with the yanks about a seat at the big table.
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FL-280
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by FL-280 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:02 pm

FL320 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:35 pm
Pardon my ignorance, but how is your seniority defined? From your Collective agreement 4.01.01 it looks like it is based on the date of employment (and before Nov 2010 it’s from date of remuneration). A merge DOH could work I guess?

On a side note, during the last days at the employee buses some senior AC Captains came to shake my hand to « welcome me aboard ». Real gentlemen, whatever the outcome that kind of positive attitude is very appreciated!
4.01.02 Also states that seniority will commence no earlier than the date of sale of business or common employer status. AKA bottom of the list
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by Duke Point » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:32 pm

FL-280 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:02 pm
FL320 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:35 pm
Pardon my ignorance, but how is your seniority defined? From your Collective agreement 4.01.01 it looks like it is based on the date of employment (and before Nov 2010 it’s from date of remuneration). A merge DOH could work I guess?

On a side note, during the last days at the employee buses some senior AC Captains came to shake my hand to « welcome me aboard ». Real gentlemen, whatever the outcome that kind of positive attitude is very appreciated!
4.01.02 Also states that seniority will commence no earlier than the date of sale of business or common employer status. AKA bottom of the list

Is that a "Not joke "....cuz you forgot the "Not"...…..

Our amazing negotiators at ACPA put the cherry that is 4.01.02 in the Collective Agreement, knowing full well (or not at all) that it didn't hold a drop of water in a merger situation. Do you want a list of all the contractual clauses in the "brilliant" Collective Agreement that don't mean a darn thing??? Hint......it's really long.

DP.
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by L39Guy » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:50 pm

FL320 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:35 pm
Pardon my ignorance, but how is your seniority defined? From your Collective agreement 4.01.01 it looks like it is based on the date of employment (and before Nov 2010 it’s from date of remuneration). A merge DOH could work I guess?

On a side note, during the last days at the employee buses some senior AC Captains came to shake my hand to « welcome me aboard ». Real gentlemen, whatever the outcome that kind of positive attitude is very appreciated!
ACPA can write whatever it wants in a collective agreement. It carries no weight whatsoever in labour law nor in an arbitration.
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yycflyguy
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by yycflyguy » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:00 pm

Duke Point wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:32 pm
FL-280 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:02 pm
FL320 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:35 pm
Pardon my ignorance, but how is your seniority defined? From your Collective agreement 4.01.01 it looks like it is based on the date of employment (and before Nov 2010 it’s from date of remuneration). A merge DOH could work I guess?

On a side note, during the last days at the employee buses some senior AC Captains came to shake my hand to « welcome me aboard ». Real gentlemen, whatever the outcome that kind of positive attitude is very appreciated!
4.01.02 Also states that seniority will commence no earlier than the date of sale of business or common employer status. AKA bottom of the list

Is that a "Not joke "....cuz you forgot the "Not"...…..

Our amazing negotiators at ACPA put the cherry that is 4.01.02 in the Collective Agreement, knowing full well (or not at all) that it didn't hold a drop of water in a merger situation. Do you want a list of all the contractual clauses in the "brilliant" Collective Agreement that don't mean a darn thing??? Hint......it's really long.

DP.
Yes, I'd like to see your list
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by Fanblade » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:55 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:27 pm
ALPA would be wise to make it clear that the previously negotiated terms will stand if a vote comes.
Agreed. And I hope they do. In fact if they do I can see ALPA taking the representation vote.

But I’m not sure what ALPA will do. They run the risk of a union raid appearance if they come out hard on the sell to ACPA pilots. That could have long lasting consequences if they lose the vote. As such they may sit on the sidelines.

I will be voting ALPA regardless. Simply because no matter the rationalizations or justifications ACPA makes to delay integration?

I believe very strongly this will be the one and only opportunity. That ACPA will never give us a say. We squander the opportunity and we will regret it.
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by Warden » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:52 pm

Coincidence that this email goes out making ALPA Intl look like the bad guy just before we may go to a representation vote?

Doubt it.

The "merger" policy that everyone is up in arms about is not legally binding it's a guideline/policy. And regardless, the government will step in regardless and force some form of DOH/relative seniority merge regardless of what we do so it's a moot point and a big fat red herring. Roll call voting in ALPA-C was already given, as was a seat at the big table in the states. ACPA are the ones who backed out after getting a lot of what they asked for. Who knows why? Maybe because fiscal oversight would now be done by ALPA? Because ACPA would end up having to let go of a lot of highly paid people/friends that would no longer be needed? One can only wonder.

At the end of the day remember the union are the people (pilots) you vote to represent you not an organization in Virginia. ALPA is just there as back end support and unity. I for one would be happy to see some experienced ALPA American negotiators come and assist at the table. I know it would sting a few people but there are some pretty experienced negotiators at Jazz as well who I know would be happy to lend their expertise with no strings attached.

Get some United and FedEx negotiators up here to help. THAT IS WHAT A UNION DOES. They have each others backs and assist where they can. ACPA trying to go it alone in this industry makes no sense.

If we go to a vote, I am voting ALPA.
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Last edited by Warden on Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by Warden » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:07 pm

Fanblade wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:55 pm
altiplano wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:27 pm
ALPA would be wise to make it clear that the previously negotiated terms will stand if a vote comes.
Agreed. And I hope they do. In fact if they do I can see ALPA taking the representation vote.

But I’m not sure what ALPA will do. They run the risk of a union raid appearance if they come out hard on the sell to ACPA pilots. That could have long lasting consequences if they lose the vote. As such they may sit on the sidelines.

I will be voting ALPA regardless. Simply because no matter the rationalizations or justifications ACPA makes to delay integration?

I believe very strongly this will be the one and only opportunity. That ACPA will never give us a say. We squander the opportunity and we will regret it.
Spread the word. There are more out there than people think. I know a number of very senior Captains who are all pro ALPA. They just keep it on the DL since it's still not the most popular opinion out there.
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by Warden » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:11 pm

L39Guy wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:50 pm
FL320 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:35 pm
Pardon my ignorance, but how is your seniority defined? From your Collective agreement 4.01.01 it looks like it is based on the date of employment (and before Nov 2010 it’s from date of remuneration). A merge DOH could work I guess?

On a side note, during the last days at the employee buses some senior AC Captains came to shake my hand to « welcome me aboard ». Real gentlemen, whatever the outcome that kind of positive attitude is very appreciated!
ACPA can write whatever it wants in a collective agreement. It carries no weight whatsoever in labour law nor in an arbitration.
I'm surprised that whatever labour lawyer they had on staff during negotiations didn't tell them they were wasting their time with that tidbit? I hope nothing was given up in order to have that piece put in.
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by sportingrifle » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:06 am

Fanblade, Warden, et all.

Obviously, we all have a right to vote how we see fit, but you may want to spend a sober second thought on voting to join ALPA. I have had the "pleasure" of being represented by both CALPA, ALPA, and ACPA.

ACPA has made some blunders and its internal political infighting have cost us at times. But they have got a bunch of stuff right and lately, ALPAc has been screwing it up big time. The WJ/Swoop/Encore debacle is something that they should have learned from the AC/Jazz circus of years ago and is going to hurt them down the road. And what they were thinking in doing a last minute 180 on the cohesive lobbying all the pilot unions were doing with regards to flight duty time regs? It was not only illogical, but counter productive to their members. Don't know what backroom deal brought that on but I am pretty sure there was one.

But the real zinger is that the "Unity" deal fell apart on the issue of roll call voting. One pilot, one vote. They didn't want the largest airline, that will soon have over 5000 pilots, to have a ruling majority in its affairs. Which is exactly the situation that caused the formation of ACPA 30 years ago. I suspect that many of the ALPAc people weren't around then and are now trying to repeat history. Is that the sort of representation that you are both anxiously waiting to embrace?

ACPA isn't perfect but at least I have some limited say in how things work. More than I ever had with CAPLA and ALPA. And I would suspect ALPAc and ALPA are starting to get a little worried. If it doesn;'t play out the way they want, ACPA is about to get 600 members larger, and ALPAc is about to get 600 members smaller. They might want to re-think what their idea of "unity" looks like.

Just my $0.02.

Cheers Sportingrifle.
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by rudder » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:19 am

Self determination is a right and the AC pilots have the right to choose whomever they want as their certified bargaining agent.

Lots of rhetoric and misinformation out there about ALPA and previous merger discussions.

Regardless of the outcome, ALPA will be just fine. Hope that is also the case for the AC pilots.
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by L39Guy » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:03 pm

sportingrifle wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:06 am
But the real zinger is that the "Unity" deal fell apart on the issue of roll call voting. One pilot, one vote. They didn't want the largest airline, that will soon have over 5000 pilots, to have a ruling majority in its affairs. Which is exactly the situation that caused the formation of ACPA 30 years ago. I suspect that many of the ALPAc people weren't around then and are now trying to repeat history. Is that the sort of representation that you are both anxiously waiting to embrace?
You are right, that is what caused CALPA to blow up and ultimately ACPA to be formed. And that is why we have no professional airline pilot unity in this country.

Roll call voting simply does not work in the CALPA/ACPA/ALPA-C context. With one organization, Air Canada pilots, being able to carry a majority on every vote by virtue of outnumbering everyone else combined, the organization simply becomes a union for Air Canada pilots with the other pilot groups as mere observers. This does not work in a union environment nor in other democratic institutions - the House of Parliament does not work that way as some MP's represent ridings with small populations while others represent ridings with large populations yet they each have the same vote in the House of Commons. In fact, CALPA or ALPA-C would make this issue more acute as there would be 10 or so votes (member airlines) whereas the real House of Commons has over 300 MP's and no single MP would have the majority of a roll call vote, i.e. represent 18 million people.

With a representation structure that was not roll call voting but with each MEC having one or more votes at the BOD, CALPA actually worked quite well in managing the expectations of airlines from the smallest (Calm Air) to the largest (Air Canada). It was the AC pilots balking at the Picher Award that was the downfall of CALPA, not anything to do with roll call voting.
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by Fanblade » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:07 am

L39Guy wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:03 pm
sportingrifle wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:06 am
But the real zinger is that the "Unity" deal fell apart on the issue of roll call voting. One pilot, one vote. They didn't want the largest airline, that will soon have over 5000 pilots, to have a ruling majority in its affairs. Which is exactly the situation that caused the formation of ACPA 30 years ago. I suspect that many of the ALPAc people weren't around then and are now trying to repeat history. Is that the sort of representation that you are both anxiously waiting to embrace?
You are right, that is what caused CALPA to blow up and ultimately ACPA to be formed. And that is why we have no professional airline pilot unity in this country.

Roll call voting simply does not work in the CALPA/ACPA/ALPA-C context. With one organization, Air Canada pilots, being able to carry a majority on every vote by virtue of outnumbering everyone else combined, the organization simply becomes a union for Air Canada pilots with the other pilot groups as mere observers. This does not work in a union environment nor in other democratic institutions - the House of Parliament does not work that way as some MP's represent ridings with small populations while others represent ridings with large populations yet they each have the same vote in the House of Commons. In fact, CALPA or ALPA-C would make this issue more acute as there would be 10 or so votes (member airlines) whereas the real House of Commons has over 300 MP's and no single MP would have the majority of a roll call vote, i.e. represent 18 million people.

With a representation structure that was not roll call voting but with each MEC having one or more votes at the BOD, CALPA actually worked quite well in managing the expectations of airlines from the smallest (Calm Air) to the largest (Air Canada). It was the AC pilots balking at the Picher Award that was the downfall of CALPA, not anything to do with roll call voting.
Nothing to do with the voting structure at CALPA that caused its downfall? I find that a very disappointing statement and I am one of ALPA’s strongest supporters. I don’t want to rehash history with you. My memory, as an AC pilot, is the whole mess started with the CALPA BOD voting for a seniority arbitration, between AC and its feeders, against the wishes of the AC MEC. Hence the 1/4 century issue over a possible reoccurrence. It’s a non starter if not addressed.

I get your issues with representation with the proposed voting system however. A veto might create comfort. What I’m really hoping is that ALPA sees that Canada is too small to structure itself in a democratic fashion. Too much acrimonious history as well. That it offers AC pilots a place within ALPA and dissolves ALPAc altogether. This whole joining ALPAc has always been a Canadian autonomy thing rather that forgetting our nationality and focusing on pilots.

We can always keep a Canadian lobby.

Your current stance, if supported by ALPAc/ALPA will all but guarantee ALPAc has 600 less members in a year out. Is that a prudent course of action? Having 5000 Canadian pilots outside the fold? Turn down 5000 pilots worth of revenue and support for peers?
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by L39Guy » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:09 am

Fanblade wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:07 am

Nothing to do with the voting structure at CALPA that caused its downfall? I find that a very disappointing statement and I am one of ALPA’s strongest supporters. I don’t want to rehash history with you. My memory, as an AC pilot, is the whole mess started with the CALPA BOD voting for a seniority arbitration, between AC and its feeders, against the wishes of the AC MEC. Hence the 1/4 century issue over a possible reoccurrence. It’s a non starter if not addressed.
The history of this whole mess is that during the early 1990's the regionals (Air Nova, Air Ontario, Air BC) were growing, including ABE-146 jets, F28's, etc and taking over traditional Air Canada DC 9 flying. That combined with the 3 seater B727 being replaced by the 2 seater A320 resulted in not only stagnation but even worse, layoffs at the former Crown Corporation - the infamous 243!

It was the Air Canada pilot group and MEC that demanded a merger between AC and its regionals. Using the CALPA constitution, a negotiation was the first step (unsuccessful, surprise, surprise) followed by a mediation process (unsuccessful). It was the Air Canada MEC that invoked binding arbitration, per the CALPA constitution, that resulted in Picher Arbitration and award. Note: it was at the insistence of the Air Canada pilots, not the regionals, that a seniority arbitration was initiated.

The Picher Award was not to the satisfaction of the Air Canada pilots; it was basically DOH to the last 243 then a ratio of those 243 with the regionals. As it was not to the liking of the AC pilots, the AC pilots walked away from the arbitration award (which they insisted upon) and CALPA as well.

Various other "excuses" have been rendered as an attempt to rewrite history - lack of voting representation, paying the majority of CALPA dues, etc. AC pilots were not unhappy with these issues for decades until they were handed a seniority arbitration award they did not like and chose to take their marbles and go home.

It is interesting to note that on a micro scale the issues of role call voting and he (or she) pays the most gets the same say in the affairs of ACPA. Roll call voting is not the norm at the MEC level, higher paid pilots (paying more union dues) have no more say than those that pay fewer dues.

With AC pilots leaving CALPA and CALPA ultimately collapsing, the pilot profession in this country has paid a terrible price, including AC pilots. Without a single voice and a single "industry standard" wages and working conditions that CALPA advocated, lesser WAWCON have evolved and, ironies of ironies, Air Canada pilots have had to bring their WAWCON down instead of raising the others up. Truly sad and ultimately short sighted.
Fanblade wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:07 am
I get your issues with representation with the proposed voting system however. A veto might create comfort. What I’m really hoping is that ALPA sees that Canada is too small to structure itself in a democratic fashion. Too much acrimonious history as well. That it offers AC pilots a place within ALPA and dissolves ALPAc altogether. This whole joining ALPAc has always been a Canadian autonomy thing rather that forgetting our nationality and focusing on pilots.
Fanblade wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:07 am
We can always keep a Canadian lobby.

Your current stance, if supported by ALPAc/ALPA will all but guarantee ALPAc has 600 less members in a year out. Is that a prudent course of action? Having 5000 Canadian pilots outside the fold? Turn down 5000 pilots worth of revenue and support for peers?
This is not about money for a union; this is about fair representation for all carriers and their pilots in a combined pilot association. Every non-Air Canada MEC need not bother to attend any ALPA-C meetings as Air Canada's MEC would simply steamroll over everyone else. That is no way to run a union, a government or any democracy. And, as I pointed out early, on a micro scale that is not have AC's own MEC works either.
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by fruitloops » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:30 am

https://skift.com/2019/08/23/delta-pilo ... n-partners

t your typical U.S. airline, a minor dispute between a labor union and management is not unusual. But Delta has a lot fewer of these skirmishes than its competitors.
— Brian Sumers

Delta Air Lines CEO Ed Bastian likes to say his company’s competitive advantage is its people, but at least one employee group at America’s most profitable airline is unhappy.

It’s the pilots, the only major workgroup represented by a labor union. Last week, Delta’s Master Executive Council of the Air Line Pilots Association wrote to federal regulators to ask them to take a special look at Delta’s joint venture agreements with Air France-KLM, Virgin Atlantic, and Alitalia to ensure they’re fair to labor.

Delta has antitrust immunity with the three European airline companies, and Delta shares costs and revenue with them on transatlantic flights. While the union has supported this arrangement in the past, pilots used the new filing to ask whether Delta wants to leverage the joint ventures so it can fly fewer transatlantic flights and save on labor costs.

By turning over more flying to European airlines, Delta has been engaging in “labor arbitrage,” the union claims. The union said it has “serious concerns ” about what it called “the inequitable allocation of service growth.”

The filing comes as the U.S. Department of Transportation prepares to authorize a new, more cohesive joint venture among the airlines that will replace two older ones. The government has already tentatively approved it, and it is highly unlikely it would reverse its decision because of pilot concerns.

Delta’s pilots doesn’t want it turned down, either. Instead, the union seeks another remedy.

Under the current plan, the government plans to review its anti-trust immunity decision in five years to ensure the airlines provide the benefits for consumers they promised. During that review, the pilots have asked the department “to assess its impact on U.S. aviation jobs and the balance of flying and growth opportunities generated in joint venture markets.”

Here are some of the key issues at stake.

......
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by Fanblade » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:38 am

L39Guy wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:09 am
Fanblade wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:07 am

Nothing to do with the voting structure at CALPA that caused its downfall? I find that a very disappointing statement and I am one of ALPA’s strongest supporters. I don’t want to rehash history with you. My memory, as an AC pilot, is the whole mess started with the CALPA BOD voting for a seniority arbitration, between AC and its feeders, against the wishes of the AC MEC. Hence the 1/4 century issue over a possible reoccurrence. It’s a non starter if not addressed.
The history of this whole mess is that during the early 1990's the regionals (Air Nova, Air Ontario, Air BC) were growing, including ABE-146 jets, F28's, etc and taking over traditional Air Canada DC 9 flying. That combined with the 3 seater B727 being replaced by the 2 seater A320 resulted in not only stagnation but even worse, layoffs at the former Crown Corporation - the infamous 243!

It was the Air Canada pilot group and MEC that demanded a merger between AC and its regionals. Using the CALPA constitution, a negotiation was the first step (unsuccessful, surprise, surprise) followed by a mediation process (unsuccessful). It was the Air Canada MEC that invoked binding arbitration, per the CALPA constitution, that resulted in Picher Arbitration and award. Note: it was at the insistence of the Air Canada pilots, not the regionals, that a seniority arbitration was initiated.

The Picher Award was not to the satisfaction of the Air Canada pilots; it was basically DOH to the last 243 then a ratio of those 243 with the regionals. As it was not to the liking of the AC pilots, the AC pilots walked away from the arbitration award (which they insisted upon) and CALPA as well.

Various other "excuses" have been rendered as an attempt to rewrite history - lack of voting representation, paying the majority of CALPA dues, etc. AC pilots were not unhappy with these issues for decades until they were handed a seniority arbitration award they did not like and chose to take their marbles and go home.

It is interesting to note that on a micro scale the issues of role call voting and he (or she) pays the most gets the same say in the affairs of ACPA. Roll call voting is not the norm at the MEC level, higher paid pilots (paying more union dues) have no more say than those that pay fewer dues.

With AC pilots leaving CALPA and CALPA ultimately collapsing, the pilot profession in this country has paid a terrible price, including AC pilots. Without a single voice and a single "industry standard" wages and working conditions that CALPA advocated, lesser WAWCON have evolved and, ironies of ironies, Air Canada pilots have had to bring their WAWCON down instead of raising the others up. Truly sad and ultimately short sighted.
Fanblade wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:07 am
I get your issues with representation with the proposed voting system however. A veto might create comfort. What I’m really hoping is that ALPA sees that Canada is too small to structure itself in a democratic fashion. Too much acrimonious history as well. That it offers AC pilots a place within ALPA and dissolves ALPAc altogether. This whole joining ALPAc has always been a Canadian autonomy thing rather that forgetting our nationality and focusing on pilots.
Fanblade wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:07 am
We can always keep a Canadian lobby.

Your current stance, if supported by ALPAc/ALPA will all but guarantee ALPAc has 600 less members in a year out. Is that a prudent course of action? Having 5000 Canadian pilots outside the fold? Turn down 5000 pilots worth of revenue and support for peers?
This is not about money for a union; this is about fair representation for all carriers and their pilots in a combined pilot association. Every non-Air Canada MEC need not bother to attend any ALPA-C meetings as Air Canada's MEC would simply steamroll over everyone else. That is no way to run a union, a government or any democracy. And, as I pointed out early, on a micro scale that is not have AC's own MEC works either.

I was trying to stay away from rehashing history. Your version of history maybe one sided or completely factual, it really doesn’t matter. It is all rear view mirror stuff. The Picher award demographic is almost all retired now. Yet the concern over that time period is still prevalent within the AC group. It doesn’t matter if that concern is real or perceived based on history. It’s a concern. The ensuing lawsuits from the Air Ontario pilots went on far too long and are actually the centre of how pilots hired after Picher view that whole time period.

But none of that matters.

What matters is moving forward together. That will only happen in an environment where everyone is comfortable.

For AC pilots it means an environment where they can’t be forced into something against their will. If that is not addressed unity will never happen, which is very unfortunate for the entire Canadian pilot profession.

With that said, I agree with your assessment of roll call voting. I will even take it a step further than democracy. The largest issue we have as a profession in Canada is that ACPA doesn’t act for the common good. That isn’t their mandate. It’s responsibly is to its members, and its members only. AC pilots within ALPAc, if given total control, will operate exactly the same way. ALPAc will become all about what AC pilots want to the possible detriment of others. That won’t work. Nor will it improve the profession.

What we need in my opinion is the dissolution of ALPAc. We all just join ALPA. No special rules or status for anyone. Replace ALPAc with a Canadian lobby group. No more big fish in a tiny puddle mentality.

This will require everyone, the pilots at AC, Jazz, WJ, TZ, to relinquish control. You see I realize the control issue isn’t just from the AC side.

I am aware this was one of the options, but control issues from multiple sources nixed it.

Unfortunately it was probably the only viable solution. It needs to be resurrected.
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by cloak » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:27 am

L39Guy, good observation and good points. No point repeating history and not a real solution to give all powers within a union to one group.

Of course there is another option for Canadian airline pilots keeping their dues in the country instead of sending it to Virginia. If true unity is desired among airline pilots, use license numbers and ATPL dates as a real national seniority system with certain fences to make the "transition" more gradual, such as no bumping rights but bid into new positions, etc. This could either be across the country with pilots being able to move within various airlines, or be inside individual airlines with certain level of autonomy, much like provinces and the country as a whole. This may sound radical or crazy, but repeating past experiences while expecting different results is the real "crazy"!

This in time will transform into a real solution with a professional organization which can also hire professionals for negotiations if need be. The current system of unions gives all responsibilities to pilot volunteers who have little experience but takes the money for the unions, under the façade of being in control of one's own life. The real reason may be an attempt to keep the overhead costs down for the unions. True that the mandate should come from the membership, but the actual work of negotiation should come from professionals with membership involvement.
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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by Takeoff OK » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:58 pm

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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by Takeoff OK » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:35 pm

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Re: ALPA blows off ACPA? Or ACPA blows off ALPA?

Post by Takeoff OK » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:11 pm

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