Interim bid out

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Warden
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Interim bid out

Post by Warden »

This interim bid is telling. And really highlights the problems we have with pay at AC.

I'm sure it will change multiple times by the time it closes. But I doubt there are 100+ people on flat pay willing to give up their schedule for a WB FO job.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

I think I know more people now applying there than I did 5 years ago when the original openings finally popped up.

Everyone's hungry for the 5% chance they get to burn a bid to go left seat in 3 years.

ACPA ain't coming to the new hires rescue any time soon.

S.
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JoeyBarton
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by JoeyBarton »

Moa coming up with acpa releasing fo's in their 3rd year willing to go WB fo from the fixed rate into formula pay?
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Warden
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by Warden »

JoeyBarton wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:30 pm
Moa coming up with acpa releasing fo's in their 3rd year willing to go WB fo from the fixed rate into formula pay?
If they do that, they should just make it 2 years across the board. Play hardball. Company needs to fill WB FO seats and wants to remove flat pay? That's leverage right there, even if it's them "giving" us something.

Looks how many FO positions are open too but people are sticking in RP jobs because of schedule for the same pay.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by Daniel Cooper »

If you want off flat pay bid NB Capt. It will probably change but right now it's going to first years. Avoid WB FO if you can until they do something about the ridiculous flat pay.
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Warden
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by Warden »

Daniel Cooper wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:38 pm
If you want off flat pay bid NB Capt. It will probably change but right now it's going to first years. Avoid WB FO if you can until they do something about the ridiculous flat pay.
I'm going to personally wait a little longer before bidding left seat. I think doing it just for the money is a bad reason, and I want to have a bit more time under my belt at the company before making that jump.

I would however, be more than happy to be a 777/787 FO. Just not at the same pay I make now.
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Hangry
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by Hangry »

They won't change anything. They'll just assign the unbid WB FO positions to new hires.
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Warden
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by Warden »

Hangry wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:54 pm
They won't change anything. They'll just assign the unbid WB FO positions to new hires.
Perhaps.

WB FO positions have been open here and there for a while now, yet they haven't been assigning them to new hires.

I'd be pretty choked if I was a new hire and forced to use my one WB FO course right to sit reserve for the next 5 years.

That's a whole other issue in itself, I for one feel like your initial new hire course shouldn't count towards any of your course rights.

I can see in now. A new hire from YVR starts at AC. Gets put on the 787 as an FO in YYZ and can't bid out west unless they burn a course, and now for the rest of their career no longer have a WB FO course right. Phenomenal system we have.
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Redwine
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by Redwine »

JoeyBarton wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:30 pm
Moa coming up with acpa releasing fo's in their 3rd year willing to go WB fo from the fixed rate into formula pay?
That is wishful thinking. Those seats will be filled, one way or another.
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yvrflyguy
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by yvrflyguy »

Let's not forget there are 500 guys who are still on their new hire freeze, guarantee the company will unfreeze them to fill these positions....they did last time around
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altiplano
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by altiplano »

CRs are bullshit.

Be sure to thank your Conservative MP candidate and Lisa Ratt in October.

Tough to plan your career and budget your moves with an ever changing landscape.

But if you want to make a move bad enough that's life - or at least the contract we live under - and that's what a UR CR is for down the way... and again in 15 years, and 25 years...

I'm saving mine for when we announce unexpectedly the 74-8s we're getting from Lufthansa...
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sanjet
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by sanjet »

altiplano wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:11 am

I'm saving mine for when we announce unexpectedly the 74-8s we're getting from Lufthansa...
Air France is giving up their A380’s + no expansion in YYZ for next 100 years due to environmental studies. I’m thinking bigger :smt040
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Last edited by sanjet on Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

Jimmy_Hoffa
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by Jimmy_Hoffa »

10 days later not much has changed.. still 136 FO spots on the 777/787/330.
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Stan Darsh
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by Stan Darsh »

Who the hell wants to waste a WBFO CR on flat pay?
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North Shore
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by North Shore »

Can someone please explain this for those of us not in the know?

Is WB FO a lousy job? Or are you at the botl, and have a crappy schedule? Why would it be so bad on flat pay? Four years from now you and your peers will go to formula, and everyone's equal again, no?
:? :?:
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by C-GGGQ »

Basically as I understand it, flat pay is much lower than any other WBFO. You can only get off flat pay early by bidding to captain ~2 years currently, and with course rights you can't get back to WBFO.
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altiplano
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by altiplano »

North Shore wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:27 pm
Can someone please explain this for those of us not in the know?

Is WB FO a lousy job? Or are you at the botl, and have a crappy schedule? Why would it be so bad on flat pay? Four years from now you and your peers will go to formula, and everyone's equal again, no?
:? :?:
WB FO, even junior isn't bad at all. But a new hire at the bottom would move up that list very slow as senior guys drop in.

Might as well put the little seniority a new guy has somewhere he can use it. For the same hourly pay guys can sit more senior on a NB, get better holidays, more days off, and actually move up the list.. Or if you're going to be happy to be junior, bid NB CA and take a big raise.

WB FO in the top half of the list is an excellent job. Four man trips, half the time spent in the bunk, 9 days or less, good expenses, lots of good destinations. Junior WB, generally more days, less augmented flying, difficult to control your schedule.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by goingnowherefast »

I'd imagine it's also a bit embarrassing being among the worst paid WB FOs in the world.

RP would give less of an issue with junior seniority, same flat pay and same type of flying. Basically use the higher relative seniority to bid better pairings and pay is the same.
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altiplano
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by altiplano »

C-GGGQ wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:25 pm
Basically as I understand it, flat pay is much lower than any other WBFO. You can only get off flat pay early by bidding to captain ~2 years currently, and with course rights you can't get back to WBFO.
Sure you can get back to WBFO depending on what Course Rights you spent.

You are given 6 Course Rights when you're hired. WBCA, NBCA, WBFO, NBFO, WBRP, & UR

So for example:
-you get hired as a 787 RP, that one gets burned,
-then you want to fly so you bid 320 FO, that one gets burned,
-then you want to upgrade to 737 CA, so that one gets burned,
-then you want to go back overseas as a 777 FO, so that one gets burned...

At that point you'd still have WBCA and UR Course Rights left. So maybe you decide to go back to a NBCA position with your UR, or maybe in 15 years you bid 330 CA and then 777 CA in your future.

At 15 and 25 years you get additional UR Course Rights too. You can also move for free sometimes, or use only 1/2 a course right and save the other half for later...

Lots of ways to do it, some guys spent their course rights like drunk sailors and now there they are... nowhere to go... other guys strategize it more, or maybe save the UR for an emergency down the road.
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by C-GGGQ »

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It really feels like your initial course should burn a course. Cause you get what you get.
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by Victory »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:40 pm
I'd imagine it's also a bit embarrassing being among the worst paid WB FOs in the world.
I'd imagine it is THE lowest paying WB FO job in the world. There's no where else paying the equivalent of $40k USD on wide-body aircraft including third world countries.
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by mixturerich »

Victory wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:56 pm
goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:40 pm
I'd imagine it's also a bit embarrassing being among the worst paid WB FOs in the world.
I'd imagine it is THE lowest paying WB FO job in the world. There's no where else paying the equivalent of $40k USD on wide-body aircraft including third world countries.
Not all about pay though, you have to think about working conditions, benefits, stability, cost of living, and living in Canada which is arguably one of the best if not the best country in the world.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by goingnowherefast »

You're right Canada is fantastic, flight and duty regs among the worst in the world too...plus our astronaut friend is doing as little as possible to fix it. :rolleyes:

I'd buy the argument for stability, working conditions, cost of living, etc. if the pay was slightly below average, but we're talking several times below average. Vancouver isn't as expensive as Hong Kong, but not buying a Ferrari either like your companions in Dubai.
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

mixturerich wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:24 pm
Victory wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:56 pm
goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:40 pm
I'd imagine it's also a bit embarrassing being among the worst paid WB FOs in the world.
I'd imagine it is THE lowest paying WB FO job in the world. There's no where else paying the equivalent of $40k USD on wide-body aircraft including third world countries.
Not all about pay though, you have to think about working conditions, benefits, stability, cost of living, and living in Canada which is arguably one of the best if not the best country in the world.
Bwahahahahahahaha good one!
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Re: Interim bid out

Post by ZBBYLW »

altiplano wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:28 pm

WB FO, even junior isn't bad at all. But a new hire at the bottom would move up that list very slow as senior guys drop in.
I beg to differ. I think being very junior ML WB FO is one of the worse jobs we have. The only thing that makes it palatable is either formula pay, or SJS (for those select pilots who care about that).

You can plan in 20+ days in the summer. Usually with a red eye outbound. Losing 4-6 nights of sleep a month. Work every weekend and no end in sight as senior guys slide in above you. As an RP yes some of the very junior guys will work a lot (due to a DH one way) but the worst of the flying is isolated to a smaller % of guys.

767 Rouge guys do okay as with socialized bidding and a 16 day cap, you generally will get flying that suits you.

Juniority is a right of passage at AC. Senior guys want to protect their way of life, and its you who gets to pay for that. Many of them want to get ride of rouge, heaven forbid a junior guy gets to spend time with his family.
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