Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

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FISH-FLY
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Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by FISH-FLY »

Just wondering what brought about the socialized bidding at Rouge at it's inception, seeing as how Mainline has long been a seniority based airline in all respects?

Although vacation bidding is now seniority based at Rouge, the monthly schedule remains socialized. If Rouge eventually gets rolled back into Mainline, as rumoured, to be replaced by Transat as the leisure segment, any thoughts on the appetite for any continued socialization at AC? Transat, from what I understand, is also seniority based for scheduling (?).

Personally, I believe that a seniority system works well at an airline with the size and fleet/route diversity that Air Canada has. Not to mention, it is a final career stop for most, which allows one to enjoy all aspects of the seniority system at different points in their careers.
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FL-280
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by FL-280 »

Who cares want Transat wants or has in that regards. At 7 to 1 if AC pilots want the socialized bidding in the vacation airline thats what will happen.
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Eddietheeagle
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by Eddietheeagle »

My personal hope is that socialized bidding never makes its way to ML....I’m pretty Jr. and I still prefer seniority based bidding. I have options that give me a choice as to what it is I want in life. If One wants a good lifestyle go RP, bid Senior F/O on the junior aircraft. If one doesn’t care about lifestyle bid to the bottom left seat or WB F/O. Lots of options.
If we go socialized bidding everyone ends up working max days with no light at the end of the tunnel. Look at the WJ guys, they all work flat out....
Also on another note, those junior guys wanting to bid to the bottom of a left seat list will no longer be able, if it’s social, guys are gonna bid max pay, sked will be same regardless.
Being junior sucks, but these days it’s short lived.
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FighterPilot
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by FighterPilot »

As a junior pilot at AC I'm enjoying the socialized bidding at Rouge. My first year at the company and I got Xmas and New Years off. I had a "crappy" rest of my block but I was expecting and prepared for that. So far I've got practically all the days off I needed even during the summer. I'm a commuter and don't expect to get every weekend off nor do I want them all off as I don't want to be commuting 6+ times a month. That being said, I want ML to stay seniority based as it's something to look forward to and a reward for your years of service. My biggest worry about the TS/AC merger is that it's going to screw with my quality of life, but hopefully by the time the Rouge/TS thing is figured out I'll be able to slid onto something at ML where I can hold a decent block under seniority.
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FISH-FLY
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by FISH-FLY »

Yeah, I echo some of the above. Personally I'd like to see socialization gone entirely. One of the reasons for quick upgrade availability, and a wide choice of aircraft types, is the fact that seniority exists, and some choose lifestyle well above money (freeing up others to do the opposite). If Rouge gets amalgamated back into Mainline, and TS takes over the leisure side, I'd hope that system-wide seniority prevails. There's something for everyone in an airline the size of AC, and seniority bidding ensures that.

Just not sure of the general sentiment system-wide at AC, with so many new hires of late, and retirements continuing en masse.
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ahramin
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by ahramin »

In principle, I agree with the idea of socialized bidding. I really don't feel good about having an amazing schedule on the backs of the junior pilots. In practice though it's as Eddie says, everyone ends up with a crappy schedule and there no option to choose a lesser paid position in order to get a better schedule.

Having one segment that has socialized bidding seems fine, more options for people to choose from, but I hope socialized bidding doesn't get considered at mainline.
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Hangry
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by Hangry »

ML will NEVER have socialized bidding. No need to worry.
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rudder
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by rudder »

Hangry wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:07 pm
ML will NEVER have socialized bidding. No need to worry.
When the provision for maximum monthly work days on the NB fleet was added (14/15/16), did it not have the effect of partially socializing pilot scheduling by forcing the sharing of efficient pairings with more junior pilots?
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Hangry
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by Hangry »

rudder wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:11 pm
Hangry wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:07 pm
ML will NEVER have socialized bidding. No need to worry.
When the provision for maximum monthly work days on the NB fleet was added (14/15/16), did it not have the effect of partially socializing pilot scheduling by forcing the sharing of efficient pairings with more junior pilots?
yes. It's the exact same thing.
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fish4life
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by fish4life »

Lots of narrow body WJ guys working 8-10 days a month it all depends what you want to bid for.
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Eddietheeagle
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by Eddietheeagle »

fish4life wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:26 pm
Lots of narrow body WJ guys working 8-10 days a month it all depends what you want to bid for.
Not going to argue with that, but I know for a fact there are at least 3-5 brand new 37 Capt’s (what’s that like 5-7 year wait) who would leave tomorrow for a new hire job at AC because they work every month 16 days....they are burnt out and can not get this 8-10 u speak of....I know this because I was drinking beer with them a couple of weeks ago and listened as they vented.
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by '97 Tercel »

:smt017
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fish4life
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by fish4life »

Eddietheeagle wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:49 pm
fish4life wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:26 pm
Lots of narrow body WJ guys working 8-10 days a month it all depends what you want to bid for.
Not going to argue with that, but I know for a fact there are at least 3-5 brand new 37 Capt’s (what’s that like 5-7 year wait) who would leave tomorrow for a new hire job at AC because they work every month 16 days....they are burnt out and can not get this 8-10 u speak of....I know this because I was drinking beer with them a couple of weeks ago and listened as they vented.
I would tell them they are bidding something wrong, if you want weekends off you are going to get them but you won’t get every weekend and 10 days of work. If you bid certain check in and out times and layovers you will probably work more days as well but on the flip side how senior do you need to be to work 10 days and no weekends at AC? Top 5%?
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by jpilot77 »

ahramin wrote:
everyone ends up with a crappy schedule and there no option to choose a lesser paid position in order to get a better schedule
I’d say pretty much everyone likes they’re schedule at Rouge. It’s definitely not everything is crapp. You might get the odd month where your satisfaction is down but mostly it’s pretty good.
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by RVR6000 »

jpilot77 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:08 pm
ahramin wrote:
everyone ends up with a crappy schedule and there no option to choose a lesser paid position in order to get a better schedule
I’d say pretty much everyone likes they’re schedule at Rouge. It’s definitely not everything is crapp. You might get the odd month where your satisfaction is down but mostly it’s pretty good.
The flying use to be all productive single day turn thats why the satisfaction was high. With the introduction of regional routes, unproductive 3 day pairings I think the glory days are behind.
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by jpilot77 »

Well perhaps on the 319 but not on the 767.
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

What’s going to happen when Rouge gets reserve this year? Will it be everyone working 3-4 days a month of reserve, or will everyone have to take a turn with a block month of reserve each once a year or something to sort of spread it around? I’m surprised ACPA hasn’t released a member survey yet to see what guys prefer.
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by ZBBYLW »

As of right now Rouge does already have reserve. It's voluntary and only when the corp needs it, but the reserve rules are significantly better than ML. To just get ML reserve would be a huge concession. We are not in a recession and there is no reason why we should negotiate a concession. Management has been telling new hires reserve is coming to Rouge because they want it. That's dirty negotiating. Frankly I'd vote no to any Rouge reserve included in any contract, short of maybe a greater use of our current VR, say VR preassigned for holidays etc.
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by altiplano »

We already have Reserve in our contract. Tear up the division and LOU74 and there you go.

The corporation wants to have their cake and eat it too.

But no crisis will go unwasted, just wait to hear how bad they have it in 2020 with the new res system, new duty rules, B737 relaunch, A220 introduction, the transat buy, the 800 new hires and the training crisis.

It's not our job to fix their problems, it's ACPA's job and our responsibility to advance our contract and without concessions.
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by jpilot77 »

Don’t forget the new SARS or Corona outbreak...
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by altiplano »

Yeah, forgot that one, thanks...
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by sstaurus »

Personally I think you'd be crazy to want to lose socialized bidding at Rouge. When do those critical holidays and days off you need matter the most; when you're young, possibly with a young family, and can enjoy it? Or when you're too old and have less commitments anyway? I find it pretty easy to get the days and schedule you want at WJ. I've been in a seniority system before, just because things are moving now... I certainly don't want to have to wait until my knees are bad and I'm nearly divorced to get a sweet sched. Just IMO... I guess it's all what you're used to.
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by rudder »

Any migration towards or away from a seniority based bidding system to replace an existing bidding system is a zero sum game. Some will win. And some will lose.

It is difficult to impossible to change status quo without acknowledging this reality.
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by iflyroads »

rudder wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:26 am
Some will win. And some will lose.


And some are bound to singggg the blueees

(Sorry couldn't resist)
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Re: Socialized Bidding (Rouge)

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

altiplano wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:59 am
We already have Reserve in our contract. Tear up the division and LOU74 and there you go.

The corporation wants to have their cake and eat it too.

But no crisis will go unwasted, just wait to hear how bad they have it in 2020 with the new res system, new duty rules, B737 relaunch, A220 introduction, the transat buy, the 800 new hires and the training crisis.

It's not our job to fix their problems, it's ACPA's job and our responsibility to advance our contract and without concessions.
They’re going to need much more extensive reserve coverage once the new duty regs go into effect.

I agree staffing is a company problem, but ACPA seems content to solve all the company’s problems while netting almost nothing for the pilots.

ACPA gave the 737 pilots a raise. Are you fucking kidding me??! They haven’t flown in a year, but let’s “ensure their wages are protected.” Meanwhile our flat pay colleagues are hung out to dry, especially those on the 320. Even though that’s the fleet picking up all the slack.

We’re in a big staffing shortage right now. We should have all the power, but ACPA is so tied up solving the company’s issues that the membership’s needs get tossed aside.
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