Layoffs

[PostmasterGeneral]

I would hate to see it, but we could easily shed all pilots on flat pay with little $$$ impact downline. If the layoff is less than 24 months, only a 'short course' would be required. Pilots wont be going anywhere, that's for certain.

The giant problem with that theory, is that the flat pay pilots hardly cost the company anything... If they're looking to save capital, letting the 20+ year guys off the high paying WB CA spots is the way to save huge amounts of capital while minimizing the impact overall to the pilot group. Laying off out of seniority isn't likely, think more in terms of forced early retirements.

[Fanblade]

I would hate to see it, but we could easily shed all pilots on flat pay with little $$$ impact downline. If the layoff is less than 24 months, only a 'short course' would be required. Pilots wont be going anywhere, that's for certain.

The giant problem with that theory, is that the flat pay pilots hardly cost the company anything... If they're looking to save capital, letting the 20+ year guys off the high paying WB CA spots is the way to save huge amounts of capital while minimizing the impact overall to the pilot group. Laying off out of seniority isn't likely, think more in terms of forced early retirements.

Your right in that you have identified the conundrum wrt laying off those on flat salary. But you can’t violate people’s human rights. You can however incentivize 60+ pilots out the door.

Incentive 1, better chance of not becoming a statistic of the pandemic.
Incentive 2, get rid of having to give notice to avoid SERP penalty.
Incentive 3, get rid of pension penalty for those that do not have 25 YOS at age 60.
Incentive 4, early retirement packages for those under 60.

ACPA is still negotiating. If the 737 grounding was any indication of why we are still talking, expect the company will be seeking to suspend large portions of the contract as they ramp back up. This would be in exchange for any quid we get now on the lay-off front.

[rudder]

Are the regionals included in the 175 fins?

Jazz has identified immediate surpluses for pilots and FA’s on the order of 40%.

[Fanblade]

Are the regionals included in the 175 fins?

Jazz has identified immediate surpluses for pilots and FA’s on the order of 40%.

Any mitigation strategies being considered?

[rudder]

Are the regionals included in the 175 fins?

Jazz has identified immediate surpluses for pilots and FA’s on the order of 40%.

Any mitigation strategies being considered?

Yes but discussions are ongoing.

Pilots bought a little breathing room until the end of April by cancelling April schedules and putting every pilot on a RSV line to be called out to cover planned flying. 400 Jazz FA’s identified as surplus. FA schedules being rebid for April based on adjusted flying.

Still entirely possible that some pilot layoff notices will go out April 01st effective May 01st. 40% is a big number. And nobody knows how long this crisis will go on.

[TalkingPie]

As someone who has read posts on the FA social pages, it perplexes me the amount of negativity towards colleagues that is being displayed. There's definitely an atmosphere of "crabs in a bucket" where they want to make sure no one gets away without suffering. As is often the case, pilots are a target of their ire (especially the idled 737 guys/girls), as well as low-level managers who make little more money (for much more work) than they do. Crisis invariably brings out the worst in people, and we already know how many Canadians load themselves up with debt to the point that one missed paycheck causes panic.

Incidentally, AC is currently having difficulty finding FAs to work the remaining flights, due to many not wanting to expose themselves to the current conditions. Some are scared, some don't want to deal with the crappy blocks, some have childcare issues with kids at home, and others are legitimately feeling cold-like symptoms. This is before any layoff notices have even gone out.

As for AC pilots, I totally get that circumstances are a little different. Layoffs would potentially trigger retraining costs as pilots bump from one machine to another (if training facilities are even available), and at least up until now, there's been the worry of a future pilot shortage. It makes sense to me that management doesn't want to wade into the potential costs associated with layoffs until they have a clearer picture of how long this fiasco is going on for. Much like waiting to delay a flight departure until long after it's obvious that the inbound aircraft is an hour late, I think management is still holding out hope that the pandemic won't affect operations for more than a month or two. Once it does become apparent that business won't be returning to normal anytime soon, I think there'll be no choice but to expect pilot layoffs.

[RippleRock]

Math is off...erased.

[shimmydampner]

Isn't this the time to protect us with our cash reserves set aside? If they're not there to protect employees that make the sacrifice daily to make the wheels turn, then what are they for?

I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.

[RippleRock]

The shareholders all buggered off...….figuratively.

[RippleRock]

.

[L39Guy]

Isn't this the time to protect us with our cash reserves set aside? If they're not there to protect employees that make the sacrifice daily to make the wheels turn, then what are they for?

I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.

The cash reserves protect the employees and the shareholders - they exist to insure that the organization does not become insolvent so it may continue operations sometime in the future, which is to the benefit of both the shareholders and the employees.

[tsgas]

Isn't this the time to protect us with our cash reserves set aside? If they're not there to protect employees that make the sacrifice daily to make the wheels turn, then what are they for?

I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.

The cash reserves protect the employees and the shareholders - they exist to insure that the organization does not become insolvent so it may continue operations sometime in the future, which is to the benefit of both the shareholders and the employees.

Very well put. So many simple minded people don't realize that a win-win is the best outcome for everyone.

[RILEY]

I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.

The cash reserves protect the employees and the shareholders - they exist to insure that the organization does not become insolvent so it may continue operations sometime in the future, which is to the benefit of both the shareholders and the employees.

Very well put. So many simple minded people don't realize that a win-win is the best outcome for everyone.

BINGO - collaboration not coercion everyone

[shimmydampner]

Isn't this the time to protect us with our cash reserves set aside? If they're not there to protect employees that make the sacrifice daily to make the wheels turn, then what are they for?

I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.

The cash reserves protect the employees and the shareholders - they exist to insure that the organization does not become insolvent so it may continue operations sometime in the future, which is to the benefit of both the shareholders and the employees.

Fair enough. But if you think that the intention is the benefit of employees, you're being naive. As an employee you may well benefit from it, but don't kid yourself; it wasn't meant for you. It just so happens that what's good for the shareholders in this scenario, is good for you too. Sorry to break it to you, but the corporation does not care about you.

[Fanblade]

Isn't this the time to protect us with our cash reserves set aside? If they're not there to protect employees that make the sacrifice daily to make the wheels turn, then what are they for?

I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.

The cash reserves protect the employees and the shareholders - they exist to insure that the organization does not become insolvent so it may continue operations sometime in the future, which is to the benefit of both the shareholders and the employees.

True, but only because shareholders need workers. Therefor workers share in the benefit.

The cash reserves belong to the shareholders. Make no mistake about it. The BOD has a fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of shareholders. Any use of money on idle employees must be justifiable.

Anything that looks like waste will be questioned and questioned hard by shareholders. This is why the only way to stave off furlough is to offer cost savings approximating what can be achieved through furlough.

It’s that simple. We either all take a partial hair cut, or a portion take a complete hair cut. If the situation gets bad enough eventually the group will no longer be able to offer savings greater than what can be saved through furlough. At that point layoffs start.

I’m not sure if CUPE was unwilling or unable to offer cost savings that matched the savings from furlough.

But to think employees have any entertainment to liquidity is ludicrous.

[rudder]

I’m not sure if CUPE was unwilling or unable to offer cost savings that matched the savings from furlough.

Using Force Majeure provisions, the lay-off of 50% of the combined AC/Rouge FA workforce creates meaningful immediate quantifiable cost savings with little or no cost to implement.

CUPE would be hard pressed to match those savings via job sharing at reduced monthly guarantees.

Pilot metric is dramatically different. Harder to implement (full scale). Significant associated costs. Hard to reverse. Possible to get a lot of pilots out from the bottom on short notice, however, cost savings lessened via average wage demographic in comparison to remaining pilot workforce.

I am certain that AC is at the table with an ask for ACPA. AC stance via bulletin is hopefully recovery of schedule (in increments) can start in May. That does not demonstrate an interest in dramatic disruptions in flight operations staffing. However, it is assured that the Corp is looking for some short term savings.

[Fanblade]

I’m not sure if CUPE was unwilling or unable to offer cost savings that matched the savings from furlough.

Using Force Majeure provisions, the lay-off of 50% of the combined AC/Rouge FA workforce creates meaningful immediate quantifiable cost savings with little or no cost to implement.

CUPE would be hard pressed to match those savings via job sharing at reduced monthly guarantees.

Pilot metric is dramatically different. Harder to implement (full scale). Significant associated costs. Hard to reverse. Possible to get a lot of pilots out from the bottom on short notice, however, cost savings lessened via average wage demographic in comparison to remaining pilot workforce.

I am certain that AC is at the table with an ask for ACPA. AC stance via bulletin is hopefully recovery of schedule (in increments) can start in May. That does not demonstrate an interest in dramatic disruptions in flight operations staffing. However, it is assured that the Corp is looking for some short term savings.

Absolutely. My unwilling comment was a poor choice of words. Unable is far far more likely.

I was mostly commenting on what looked like an employees sense of entertainment to AC cash reserves. My point was only that the below attitude is not anywhere in the realm of reality. This kind of thinking leads to a feeling of poor me when the pay cuts start to fly.

Isn't this the time to protect us with our cash reserves set aside? If they're not there to protect employees that make the sacrifice daily to make the wheels turn, then what are they for?

[mbav8r]

If already mentioned oh well, cash reserves are to stave off insolvency, which by default will protect shareholders and employees alike, live to fight another day so to speak. Cuts will delay the point in which this happens, simple really.
Many airlines have completely shut down, how they manage employees is all over the place.
Again, whichever method saves the most money and allows the planned continued operations is what will happen, regardless of our opinions.
This is just the first round, in my opinion, there will be another round based on predictions of how long the isolation and distancing will be needed. They’re talking months now, no longer referencing weeks. PM is talking about enforcing the stay at home recommendation, “Enough is Enough” was his message this morning, the feds will be talking to the premiers tonight about them taking action so the feds don’t need to.
Another factor, provinces have started shutting their borders to non residents and non essential travel, I’m currently readying myself for life on EI, hopefully not so long I’m insolvent myself.
Be well John Spartan!

[L39Guy]

I don't think a companies cash reserves are there to protect the employees. I'm pretty sure it's to protect the share holders.

The cash reserves protect the employees and the shareholders - they exist to insure that the organization does not become insolvent so it may continue operations sometime in the future, which is to the benefit of both the shareholders and the employees.

Sorry to break it to you, but the corporation does not care about you.

Thanks for letting me know that. I feel more enlightened today than I did yesterday.

[iflyroads]

Looks like the last 4 Gs at AC getting layoff calls