Layoffs

[Sharklasers]

On the one hand 55 hour blocks are pretty close to what the DB pension plan guys would be drawing per month after income splitting and other tax mitigation. All these pensions will land between $9500-$12000 per month. On the other I have always been suspicious of the guys you fly with who say ‘oh I’d go today if they just got rid of early retirement penalty’. These guys seem to love it the most, I’ve only ever met 1 pilot who admitted to me that they would wheel his lifeless corpse out of the cockpit if they let him.
Time to see what guys are made of.

[Old fella]

People need to look at what is happening around the World.

85-100% fleet groundings with the same percentage of lay-offs.

Borders are closing around the World - then there will be a lockdown preventing domestic travel.

It's an entirely New World and we will all have to adapt to the new reality.

I am not of the airline mold and never have been but just reading the news indicates heavy turbulence ahead no doubt about it. Yes, we are keenly aware what’s happening globally and deeply concerned as we(Canada) are not isolated from events, you can be certain of that. Airlines and airline travel is how the global economy moves- there is no other way and is a permanent part of that structure. It’s essential. I don’t know your personal situation , expat with a family perhaps but no doubt a quality person like yourself with knowledge, experience, background will land on your feet- they always do. Just wishing you the very best transitioning the choppy air going forward

OF

[RVR6000]

I agree this outcome is quite reasonable for everyone, however 55 hour block month for flat payers isn't a lot of money. factor in commuting and I suspect EI would be a much better option for many pilots at AC.

Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.

[RippleRock]

I agree this outcome is quite reasonable for everyone, however 55 hour block month for flat payers isn't a lot of money. factor in commuting and I suspect EI would be a much better option for many pilots at AC.

Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.

How do you read a 25-30% increase for Rouge? Both the R767 and R320 are narrow-body positions are they not? They would be folded into Mainline as such, no?

The interesting thing to watch will be the April CMSC bid. If Rouge positions are eliminated, and rolled into Mainline, you can be guaranteed the merger with Transat is going ahead.

[PostmasterGeneral]

For those on flat pay, their salaries are based on a “flat pay” (as the name implies) and not an hourly rate. Hourly rate only comes into effect once over 75(?) hours. So, will the flat pay really be cut to match a 55 hour block? Or will it remain the same? The email from ACPA wasn’t clear.

[bob99]

I agree this outcome is quite reasonable for everyone, however 55 hour block month for flat payers isn't a lot of money. factor in commuting and I suspect EI would be a much better option for many pilots at AC.

Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.

How do you read a 25-30% increase for Rouge? Both the R767 and R320 are narrow-body positions are they not? They would be folded into Mainline as such, no?

The interesting thing to watch will be the April CMSC bid. If Rouge positions are eliminated, and rolled into Mainline, you can be guaranteed the merger with Transat is going ahead.

I can't answer your question about NB rates, but, just comparing mainline 320 vs Rouge 320... Crewsware shows a $30-40 difference per hour at years 3-6. I don't understand how we're laying off some guys yet giving others a large hourly pay increase. These Captains won't even be flying.

[RVR6000]

I agree this outcome is quite reasonable for everyone, however 55 hour block month for flat payers isn't a lot of money. factor in commuting and I suspect EI would be a much better option for many pilots at AC.

Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.

How do you read a 25-30% increase for Rouge? Both the R767 and R320 are narrow-body positions are they not? They would be folded into Mainline as such, no?

The interesting thing to watch will be the April CMSC bid. If Rouge positions are eliminated, and rolled into Mainline, you can be guaranteed the merger with Transat is going ahead.

The way I read it R767 becomes mainline 767 and R320 to mainline 320. Not only higher rates but Nav/overseas pay as well.

I think this was in the makings anyways with the re-opener and new duty/rest regs. Roll it back but still keep the brand, have one list with reserve and seniority blocks.

We’ll see if rouge return after this pandemic.

[RippleRock]

Are you using the "blended rates"? Day / night?

It doesn't look that significant, maybe my math is off but a 767 Skip year 12 at Rouge would make nearly identical pay to a 320 12 year Skip at Mainline.

I'm just wondering if the repatriation of Rouge qualifies 767 flow to 767 Mainline pay, or it will be considered a "narrowbody" like it was for bidding and course right purposes.

[Jean-Pierre]

Has anyone calculated what monthly take home pay will be after taxes and all deductions for years 1,2,3,4?

[RippleRock]

That layoff MOU is a bit of a mess. It doesn't cover much about people on training courses, whether or not an IFR renewal is being offered to furlowed folk and the vacation clause is fuzzy.

The language isn't clear in a lot of areas, the most glaring of which are the repatriatization of the Rouge fleet, and total layoffs. I think the CMSC bid coming in April will clear up a lot.

Still thinking the 162 layoffs are more for optics for laying off other employee groups than any real savings.

[tallyho]

Its gonna be close, depending on your communting circumstances, crashpad plus cost of flights it can easily reach $600+ pm so I suppose the numbers are slightly better to tay at 55 hours. Also with EI the mortgage deferrals etc. can be used and not sure if that is an option with a 20-30% pay reduction.

I am not saying this is a a bad outcome, in fact overall I think its very fair to the pilot group.


Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.
[/quote]

[RVR6000]

Still thinking the 162 layoffs are more for optics for laying off other employee groups than any real savings.

+1

[mbav8r]

Its gonna be close, depending on your communting circumstances, crashpad plus cost of flights it can easily reach $600+ pm so I suppose the numbers are slightly better to tay at 55 hours. Also with EI the mortgage deferrals etc. can be used and not sure if that is an option with a 20-30% pay reduction.

I am not saying this is a a bad outcome, in fact overall I think its very fair to the pilot group.


Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.

[/quote]
Holy @#$!, the world airline industry is fucking collapsing and you fucken guys are complaining about how the Rouge(AIR CANADA) pilots got the best fn deal. Rouge was forced on ACPA pilots, some went for various reasons but you’re all ACPA pilots. You sure eat your own over there. @#$! sakes!

[mbav8r]

Its gonna be close, depending on your communting circumstances, crashpad plus cost of flights it can easily reach $600+ pm so I suppose the numbers are slightly better to tay at 55 hours. Also with EI the mortgage deferrals etc. can be used and not sure if that is an option with a 20-30% pay reduction.

I am not saying this is a a bad outcome, in fact overall I think its very fair to the pilot group.


Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.

Holy @#$!, the world airline industry is fucking collapsing and you fucken guys are complaining about how the Rouge(AIR CANADA) pilots got the best fn deal. Rouge was forced on ACPA pilots, some went for various reasons but you’re all ACPA pilots. You sure eat your own over there. @#$! sakes!
[/quote]

[Fanblade]

You sure eat your own over there. @#$! sakes!

Individual commentary aside. No we did not. In fact ACPA pilots have a long history of giving when push comes to shove.

The biggest grip people have with ACPA is the constant. I had to do it, so do you mentality.

[altiplano]

Out of seniority 767 CAs took the smallest hit here... no surprise, they've been getting the wins since 2014... first 1/2 credit YOS CA in '14, then full credit YOS CA in '17, now mainline rates. I wonder what QPOS the guy doing the negotiating is in?

[Victory]

Why on earth would pilots be negotiating this stuff themselves at all?

[altiplano]

Because they took a course once...

[TheStig]

Sorry to hear about all those hired this year being furloughed, I've always enjoyed reading the biographies and I can imagine how crushing it was to get that phone call. Hope to see you guys and gals all back soon.

I'm curious to hear what some of those who now are contemplating retirement think of that portion of the MOA? I wouldn't be critical of anyone who decides to wait it out, their seniority has earned them that right. I'm sure the decision making process is different for a 59 year old than a 64 year old. To be honest I didn't read the MOA too closely.

Looks like the 777 fleet in YYZ is only being blocked for one YVR turn a day in April and the 787 will be utilized for the 'airbridge' flights, makes sense its trip cost is quite a bit lower.

Unfortunately, I don't think even 500 early retirements will prevent the further 600 layoffs as this virus will keep travel depressed for at least a year and leave the economy in a depression. I think the pilot group as a whole are massive winners at this point, the world has ground to a halt and we still have incomes. This is a 6 month safety net. The April bid will give us a good indication of how bad the airline projects the impact to be, down training can occur pretty rapidly will so many pilots sitting idle and the financial incentive for the airline to reduce salaries.

[TFTMB heavy]

For those on flat pay, their salaries are based on a “flat pay” (as the name implies) and not an hourly rate. Hourly rate only comes into effect once over 75(?) hours. So, will the flat pay really be cut to match a 55 hour block? Or will it remain the same? The email from ACPA wasn’t clear.

15. For the duration of this MOA, all active pilots including pilots on a fixed rate under Article 12.03, will be credited:

a. a MBG of 55 hours DN rates, for the April and May 2020 block months.