Layoffs

[Hangry]

Very good outcome. Could have been so much worse.

Sorry it wasn’t as bad as some of you would have liked. The jealousy and bitterness is palpable.

Hopefully the layoffs are short lived for everyone everywhere.

Fly safe.

[rudder]

500 ERIP eligible pilots.

How many will sign up?

[RVR6000]

500 ERIP eligible pilots.

How many will sign up?

Less than 50 is my guess.

[Hangry]

500 ERIP eligible pilots.

How many will sign up?

Less than 50 is my guess.

I bet it’ll be a lot more than that. Especially given what’s going on right now. Will be interesting to see for sure.

[tallyho]

I agree this outcome is quite reasonable for everyone, however 55 hour block month for flat payers isn't a lot of money. factor in commuting and I suspect EI would be a much better option for many pilots at AC.

[Sharklasers]

On the one hand 55 hour blocks are pretty close to what the DB pension plan guys would be drawing per month after income splitting and other tax mitigation. All these pensions will land between $9500-$12000 per month. On the other I have always been suspicious of the guys you fly with who say ‘oh I’d go today if they just got rid of early retirement penalty’. These guys seem to love it the most, I’ve only ever met 1 pilot who admitted to me that they would wheel his lifeless corpse out of the cockpit if they let him.
Time to see what guys are made of.

[Old fella]

People need to look at what is happening around the World.

85-100% fleet groundings with the same percentage of lay-offs.

Borders are closing around the World - then there will be a lockdown preventing domestic travel.

It's an entirely New World and we will all have to adapt to the new reality.

I am not of the airline mold and never have been but just reading the news indicates heavy turbulence ahead no doubt about it. Yes, we are keenly aware what’s happening globally and deeply concerned as we(Canada) are not isolated from events, you can be certain of that. Airlines and airline travel is how the global economy moves- there is no other way and is a permanent part of that structure. It’s essential. I don’t know your personal situation , expat with a family perhaps but no doubt a quality person like yourself with knowledge, experience, background will land on your feet- they always do. Just wishing you the very best transitioning the choppy air going forward

OF

[RVR6000]

I agree this outcome is quite reasonable for everyone, however 55 hour block month for flat payers isn't a lot of money. factor in commuting and I suspect EI would be a much better option for many pilots at AC.

Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.

[RippleRock]

I agree this outcome is quite reasonable for everyone, however 55 hour block month for flat payers isn't a lot of money. factor in commuting and I suspect EI would be a much better option for many pilots at AC.

Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.

How do you read a 25-30% increase for Rouge? Both the R767 and R320 are narrow-body positions are they not? They would be folded into Mainline as such, no?

The interesting thing to watch will be the April CMSC bid. If Rouge positions are eliminated, and rolled into Mainline, you can be guaranteed the merger with Transat is going ahead.

[PostmasterGeneral]

For those on flat pay, their salaries are based on a “flat pay” (as the name implies) and not an hourly rate. Hourly rate only comes into effect once over 75(?) hours. So, will the flat pay really be cut to match a 55 hour block? Or will it remain the same? The email from ACPA wasn’t clear.

[bob99]

I agree this outcome is quite reasonable for everyone, however 55 hour block month for flat payers isn't a lot of money. factor in commuting and I suspect EI would be a much better option for many pilots at AC.

Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.

How do you read a 25-30% increase for Rouge? Both the R767 and R320 are narrow-body positions are they not? They would be folded into Mainline as such, no?

The interesting thing to watch will be the April CMSC bid. If Rouge positions are eliminated, and rolled into Mainline, you can be guaranteed the merger with Transat is going ahead.

I can't answer your question about NB rates, but, just comparing mainline 320 vs Rouge 320... Crewsware shows a $30-40 difference per hour at years 3-6. I don't understand how we're laying off some guys yet giving others a large hourly pay increase. These Captains won't even be flying.

[RVR6000]

I agree this outcome is quite reasonable for everyone, however 55 hour block month for flat payers isn't a lot of money. factor in commuting and I suspect EI would be a much better option for many pilots at AC.

Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.

How do you read a 25-30% increase for Rouge? Both the R767 and R320 are narrow-body positions are they not? They would be folded into Mainline as such, no?

The interesting thing to watch will be the April CMSC bid. If Rouge positions are eliminated, and rolled into Mainline, you can be guaranteed the merger with Transat is going ahead.

The way I read it R767 becomes mainline 767 and R320 to mainline 320. Not only higher rates but Nav/overseas pay as well.

I think this was in the makings anyways with the re-opener and new duty/rest regs. Roll it back but still keep the brand, have one list with reserve and seniority blocks.

We’ll see if rouge return after this pandemic.

[RippleRock]

Are you using the "blended rates"? Day / night?

It doesn't look that significant, maybe my math is off but a 767 Skip year 12 at Rouge would make nearly identical pay to a 320 12 year Skip at Mainline.

I'm just wondering if the repatriation of Rouge qualifies 767 flow to 767 Mainline pay, or it will be considered a "narrowbody" like it was for bidding and course right purposes.

[Jean-Pierre]

Has anyone calculated what monthly take home pay will be after taxes and all deductions for years 1,2,3,4?

[RippleRock]

That layoff MOU is a bit of a mess. It doesn't cover much about people on training courses, whether or not an IFR renewal is being offered to furlowed folk and the vacation clause is fuzzy.

The language isn't clear in a lot of areas, the most glaring of which are the repatriatization of the Rouge fleet, and total layoffs. I think the CMSC bid coming in April will clear up a lot.

Still thinking the 162 layoffs are more for optics for laying off other employee groups than any real savings.

[tallyho]

Its gonna be close, depending on your communting circumstances, crashpad plus cost of flights it can easily reach $600+ pm so I suppose the numbers are slightly better to tay at 55 hours. Also with EI the mortgage deferrals etc. can be used and not sure if that is an option with a 20-30% pay reduction.

I am not saying this is a a bad outcome, in fact overall I think its very fair to the pilot group.


Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.
[/quote]

[RVR6000]

Still thinking the 162 layoffs are more for optics for laying off other employee groups than any real savings.

+1

[mbav8r]

Its gonna be close, depending on your communting circumstances, crashpad plus cost of flights it can easily reach $600+ pm so I suppose the numbers are slightly better to tay at 55 hours. Also with EI the mortgage deferrals etc. can be used and not sure if that is an option with a 20-30% pay reduction.

I am not saying this is a a bad outcome, in fact overall I think its very fair to the pilot group.


Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.

[/quote]
Holy @#$!, the world airline industry is fucking collapsing and you fucken guys are complaining about how the Rouge(AIR CANADA) pilots got the best fn deal. Rouge was forced on ACPA pilots, some went for various reasons but you’re all ACPA pilots. You sure eat your own over there. @#$! sakes!

[mbav8r]

Its gonna be close, depending on your communting circumstances, crashpad plus cost of flights it can easily reach $600+ pm so I suppose the numbers are slightly better to tay at 55 hours. Also with EI the mortgage deferrals etc. can be used and not sure if that is an option with a 20-30% pay reduction.

I am not saying this is a a bad outcome, in fact overall I think its very fair to the pilot group.


Are you sure? Year 1 flat pay-rate effective April 2, 2020. $61.26x55hr = $3369.30. Year 2: $3683.90

Max EI in Ontario is about $2100.

I think the union did a great job limiting the damage. Comparing to our peers it could’ve been a lot worse.

Rouge continues to walk-away with the best deal, overnight they got a 25-30% hourly pay bump.

Holy @#$!, the world airline industry is fucking collapsing and you fucken guys are complaining about how the Rouge(AIR CANADA) pilots got the best fn deal. Rouge was forced on ACPA pilots, some went for various reasons but you’re all ACPA pilots. You sure eat your own over there. @#$! sakes!
[/quote]

[Fanblade]

You sure eat your own over there. @#$! sakes!

Individual commentary aside. No we did not. In fact ACPA pilots have a long history of giving when push comes to shove.

The biggest grip people have with ACPA is the constant. I had to do it, so do you mentality.