79 Airplanes Retired

[CanadianPilotQc]

Whats roughly ~ date of hire of number 3704?

[jpilot77]

August 2018

[L39Guy]

Last bid was 4900+, now down to 3300 and change. That's about 1/3 of positions gone

Correct me if I’m wrong, 4900 included the 800 vacancies that were not filled.

Yes, it appears that most of the reductions were unfilled jobs including those penciled in for the new FDR. Although I have not heard anything official, others on this forum claim that the air carriers have been given 18 months of relief on those. And that was about 500 to 700 positions.

With a 17% reduction in positions, in theory a 17% reduction in flying (about 14 hours/month) would keep everyone on the property or a 9% (7 hours per month) would keep 300 hundred pilots on the property. This would result in a 68 hour or 75 hour block month, respectively.

Inquiring minds would like to know if ACPA is pursuing such a work sharing arrangement. This has been done in the past to reduce the layoff numbers. I would submit that this is no ordinary recession but a unique situation in which everyone, not just the junior pilots, feel some pain. This will be interesting to watch.

[altiplano]

Last bid was 4900+, now down to 3300 and change. That's about 1/3 of positions gone

Correct me if I’m wrong, 4900 included the 800 vacancies that were not filled.

Right.

But lots of those positions that are gone are Captain seats... lots bumping down, losing left seat, lost activation dates, etc.

[mbav8r]

[quote=mbav8r post_id=<a href="tel:1115642">1115642</a> time=<a href="tel:1588726528">1588726528</a> user_id=8159]
[quote=altiplano post_id=<a href="tel:1115630">1115630</a> time=<a href="tel:1588719906">1588719906</a> user_id=3052]
Last bid was 4900+, now down to 3300 and change. That's about 1/3 of positions gone

Correct me if I’m wrong, 4900 included the 800 vacancies that were not filled.
[/quote]

Right.

But lots of those positions that are gone are Captain seats... lots bumping down, losing left seat, lost activation dates, etc.
[/quote]
Sorry, not trying to minimize it, was trying to get my head wrapped around it. I understand YYZ was hit hardest, this situation is worse than I previously envisioned when it all started.
Trudeau has alluded to some type of airline industry package coming this week, fingers crossed, it saves some jobs.

[landshark]

What’s the difference between the required pilots being 3327 and the surplus starting at 3704?

[iflyroads]

What’s the difference between the required pilots being 3327 and the surplus starting at 3704?

Managers, special leaves, medicals...etc, retirements too if I'm not mistaken

[landshark]

Thanks

[Inverted2]

You guys are fortunate that your company has so many different types and no status pay or I’m sure the layoff numbers would be higher.

[rudder]

For those in the know - what was the rationale behind eliminating all of the LCC 319 and WB RP positions?

Also, why the reductions on the 737?

[JoeyBarton]

You guys are fortunate that your company has so many different types and no status pay or I’m sure the layoff numbers would be higher.

Fortunate? It is why many joined AC and left a leisure carrier and started all over again. When people say ac is more stable or more money, some laugh and forget that at every crisis, AC is the place to be.
Proof again today.

[altiplano]

For those in the know - what was the rationale behind eliminating all of the LCC 319 and WB RP positions?

Also, why the reductions on the 737?

I'm clearly not "in the know" so just speculation, but...

737 reduced because of the slowdown on taking of additional deliveries. We were showing for the 50 aircraft expected, they'll meter those incoming even slower now. Also maybe because there are a bunch of guys getting pay activated as Captain but not yet trained. They mostly will all lose that.

LCC319 gone so guys can't bump down under the pay protection rules in our contract for xfer to the LCC. Also it somewhat limits the number of places to go down for reduced L767 and 737 pilots which would result in course rights returned. They hope those guys go into the mainline 320. Also FO seats in those positions are junior. Easy to layoff immediately without having to train to cover it.

WB RP is mostly a junior seat also, I'm just guessing majority will fall into this layoff, they can eliminate them immediately and cover the flying with existing FOs.

I also like to think that someone at the corporation has finally realized that the duplication in these positions is a waste of money. LCC 319, RP, saving pennies on pilot salary only to spend more with more managers, additional training, lost economies of scale, lost flexibility, and inefficient crewing.

They called for ideas for how to save money during this crisis. There you go - those 2 positions in particular screamed to be eliminated.

[rudder]

For those in the know - what was the rationale behind eliminating all of the LCC 319 and WB RP positions?

Also, why the reductions on the 737?

Just speculation, but...

737 reduced because of the slowdown on taking of additional deliveries. We were showing for the 50 aircraft expected, they'll Meyer those even slower now. Also maybe because there are a bunch of guys getting pay activated as Captain but not yet trained. They mostly will all lose that.

LCC319 gone so guys can't bump down under the pay protection rules in our contract for xfer to the LCC. Also it somewhat limits the number of places to go down for reduced L767 and 737 pilots which would result in course rights returned. They hope those guys go into the mainline 320. Also FO seats in those positions are junior. Easy to layoff immediately without having to train to cover it.

WB RP is mostly a junior seat also, I'm just guessing majority will fall into this layoff, they can eliminate them immediately and cover the flying with existing FOs.

I also like to think that someone at the corporation has finally realized that the duplication in these positions is a waste of money. LCC 319, RP, saving pennies on pilot salary only to spend more with more managers, additional training, lost economies of scale, lost flexibility, and inefficient crewing.

They called for ideas for how to save money during this crisis. There you go - those 2 positions in particular screamed to be eliminated.

Thx.

I think that AC is (was?) the only North American major with an RP qualification.

On the cost saving front - wouldn’t this be the perfect time to get rid of the Rouge operating certificate? Talk about duplication. Keep the brand and paint job but eliminate all of the administrative redundancy as well as staffing mobility restrictions,

[altiplano]

I edited some of my post, strange predictive text.... but your quote beat me...

Yeah, I agree. Get rid of it as far as pilot staff division is concerned. It was always just a wedge for Flight Ops. Everyone knows it costs the corporation more. Same dispatch, same ramp, same agents, same website, more managers, more training, lost productivity and efficiency.

If you want the density, have at 'er, but CARs duty day advantages have evaporated and a couple bucks an hour pilot wage, airport layovers, and socialized bidding don't drive enough savings to justify it. Whatever they tell us...

The trick for ACPA will be to not give to get rid of it when the corporation is going to do it anyway.

[Kapitanov]

For those in the know - what was the rationale behind eliminating all of the LCC 319 and WB RP positions?

Also, why the reductions on the 737?

WB RP is mostly a junior seat also, I'm just guessing majority will fall into this layoff, they can eliminate them immediately and cover the flying with existing FOs.

There are also covering RP flying by increasing all WB positions except obviously the 767 and 777 CA YYZ. Saving a lot of money here by reducing the amount of down training required. Imagine how many training events would a reduced 787 CA create!

In my opinion, it's a very strategic bid made by the company. It really looks like a paper bid so far, pretty sure a lot of the down training won't happen, at least in the short term. They will focus on who they need to down train first that will save them money first.

[rudder]

For those in the know - what was the rationale behind eliminating all of the LCC 319 and WB RP positions?

Also, why the reductions on the 737?

WB RP is mostly a junior seat also, I'm just guessing majority will fall into this layoff, they can eliminate them immediately and cover the flying with existing FOs.

There are also covering RP flying by increasing all WB positions except obviously the 767 and 777 CA YYZ. Saving a lot of money here by reducing the amount of down training required. Imagine how many training events would a reduced 787 CA create!

In my opinion, it's a very strategic bid made by the company. It really looks like a paper bid so far, pretty sure a lot of the down training won't happen, at least in the short term. They will focus on who they need to down train first that will save them money first.

So it wasn’t a coincidence that each Base shows net zero vacancy/reductions?

[altiplano]

This is far from a paper bid... there's always a lot of jigging and massaging on the CMSC, but there will be a ton of moves and training happening right away.

There will be reduced 787/777/330 CAs too. Probably 40 or 50 reduced 767 CAs, and L767 CAs have the seniority to bump in there and I'm sure they will. The company may not move the guys getting bumped out though, at least not right away. Wait to see what the recovery will be, see if more retirements come, etc.

But this definitely gives them the opportunity to balance the rest of the positions out, esp the on the 320 and WB FOs. We'll see those filled and trained quickly from the LCC and junior NB CA reductions.

[Fanblade]

For those in the know - what was the rationale behind eliminating all of the LCC 319 and WB RP positions?

Also, why the reductions on the 737?

A previous bid had all 61 737’s on it. That number has since been reduced to 50.

The L319 rational has a few reasons.

Fleet utilization. They can park the EMJ/319 and older 320 immediately by pulling Rouges 320’s back to mainline.

Keeping pilots on payroll not doing anything would reduce the surplus. CR didn’t sound that optimistic that the type of flying Rouge does would come back very quickly.

Also mentioned this gives AC a chance to simplify its NB fleet. No further explanation as to what this meant. The 320 split between mainline and a Rouge was never the intent. It was supposed to be 737 mainline and 320 Rouge. Does Rouge become a brand only after this? They deploy anything they want (320/737/220) into the market? Do they deploy the Max into Rouge and mainline stays 320? Just speculation.
I’m leaning, no that’s not true my bias is showing. I’m hoping Rouge becomes a brand run from within the same operating certificate.

The RP reduction. While waiting for a rebound FO/CA cover the shortfall. Less courses.

[TheRealPapaK]

I realize the Transat merger is the farfrom everyone's mind, but I wonder if swiping away Rouge is setting up for ACA for an acquisition and to keep the Transat brand as the new "rouge". Pure speculation.

[sanjet]

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