COVID MOA 2

[Daniel Cooper]

I don't understand why they opened voting before the Q and A. I assume they weren't planning to have one but when 30% voted no they scrambled to educate the masses. After the Q and A the things everyone were freaking out about kind of seen like a nothing burger. If the MOA fails that's on ACPA for not explaining it before opening voting.

[TheStig]

I'm going swim against the current here, I think this vote is an easy yes and I've been 50/50 over the years. The pandemic has been devastating to the industry and Canadian carriers are faced dealing with zero government assistance and some of the most restrictive passenger movement regulations. There haven't been any indications that the near future looks any better.

63 hours a month is a decent improvement over 55 and certainly beats WJ's 58. For all the talk about how ACPA always 'eats its young' 75 hours and 194 less surplus pilots' certainly seems like a win. I don't want to be a fear monger but I don't want to find out what the alternative is should the MOA be voted down, recall TA1 vs FOS if you need a frame of reference.

I don't know what to suggest to anyone who doesn't trust ACPA or AC? ACPA's rollout has been sloppy because they probably didn't foresee the need for 2 webinars and 3 separate Q&A pages after negotiating an agreement they felt addressed the memberships major concerns (pay increases, 75 hours for years 1-4, 80 hours MPU credits, layoff mitigation).

[Hangry]

The MOA will pass. I doubt anyone at ACPA Hq is sweating it.

[snowcone]

Can ACPA see the Yes/No vote numbers prior to vote closing?

[green_guy]

This deal is as good as it's going to get. Increase in hours (above what WJ is getting), stops furloughs and buys another 6 months so the industry can hopefully recover. The company has lost 90% of its revenue (for 6 months and counting) and we might only lay off 600. Not to minimize the impact on the 600 but that's a reasonable outcome, IMO. Voted yes. I hope those laid off are back asap!

[planebored]

Can ACPA see the Yes/No vote numbers prior to vote closing?

No. They can only see the total turnout so far like everyone else. The vote is run by the VCC.

[planebored]

The MOA will pass. I doubt anyone at ACPA Hq is sweating it.

I agree it will likely pass. I disagree regarding HQ sweating. They may not be anymore, but they probably were. Otherwise we wouldn't have seen such an in depth second webinar.

[Tolip410]

Question for you all...why do pilots (MEC) always think they are smarter than the company and their panel of high priced help? If we say yes to this agreement which as usual seems open to lots of interpretation,(you know which way we always end up on that front), what kind of a future are the pilots who are already laid off going to be coming back to? I know these are scary times but jesus...will we ever learn?

[RippleRock]

This deal is as good as it's going to get. Increase in hours (above what WJ is getting), stops furloughs and buys another 6 months so the industry can hopefully recover. The company has lost 90% of its revenue (for 6 months and counting) and we might only lay off 600. Not to minimize the impact on the 600 but that's a reasonable outcome, IMO. Voted yes. I hope those laid off are back asap!

It seems people don't understand what Article 1 is, or what it has meant to the profession. It doesn't matter now though.

This MOA will pass, and we will be one step closer to pilot career redundancy. Since 1937 Air Canada pilots have worked together united, to build what we have, only to have it flushed down the toilet by those not interested in educating themselves of the history and the reason behind their achievement.

It's really sad.



Enjoy your 75 hours though. Management will never respect you for pushing through a "$hit sandwich" on the first vote. Never expect better than garbage, cuz they won't offer it.

[Counterpoint]

Educating themselves of the history and the reason behind ? Let me help you understand the YES vote.

The first union drive for TCA pilots started after WWII, it never made good till the 50’s and then “united” a few air line pilots across the country as part of CALPA. There was no scope back then, all pilots were in-status pay, and your schedule was “given” to you.

Of course all that changed, but all this rah-rah about Air Canada pilots being united has never been my experience. So, spare the sound bites and practice a little EMCON.

Did you have the pleasure of attending the scope webie - where all was explained in pretty pictures. You would notice that after the ACPA did that, all the conspiracies dried up on this thread. Then, all of a sudden the “vote No” crowd say that it’ll “pass” because those of us that took a little time to “understand what Article 1 is” waited to vote after “educating themselves”.

What you and your conspiracy phanatiques did was crap on the ACPA for raising pay (during a force majeure), maintain scope parameters that make sense during a complete loss of revenue period, save pilot jobs that would have been laid off. You voted against all that.

600 on the streets and 194 (if your side “wins” the vote) about to join them, why don’t you give them your name, instead of your opinion.

Ça va faire Rippie, calme toi.

CP

[Fanblade]

This deal is as good as it's going to get. Increase in hours (above what WJ is getting), stops furloughs and buys another 6 months so the industry can hopefully recover. The company has lost 90% of its revenue (for 6 months and counting) and we might only lay off 600. Not to minimize the impact on the 600 but that's a reasonable outcome, IMO. Voted yes. I hope those laid off are back asap!

It seems people don't understand what Article 1 is, or what it has meant to the profession. It doesn't matter now though.

This MOA will pass, and we will be one step closer to pilot career redundancy. Since 1937 Air Canada pilots have worked together united, to build what we have, only to have it flushed down the toilet by those not interested in educating themselves of the history and the reason behind their achievement.

It's really sad.



Enjoy your 75 hours though. Management will never respect you for pushing through a "$hit sandwich" on the first vote. Never expect better than garbage, cuz they won't offer it.

Ripple,

The scope language that has been put into a temporary pause, isn’t an issue. The language is without prejudice. Meaning it is in full force and affect when the MOA expires. Moreover we have the companies agreement that is so. The company has in affect re validated these contractual obligations, while putting them on pause.

The CPA scope language that is being violated without agreement is outside the MOA. That is the issue we should be concerned about. Anytime article 1 language is heading toward arbitration we should be concerned. The fact that an agreement was not reached inside the MOA means the company may want arbitration. Might. We don’t know. And yes history has taught us that when the company wants an article 1 arbitration we usually lose jobs. History has repeatedly show this.

Those are the two issues. One immediate. One future. ACPA has chosen to keep the issues separate and deal with them separately. Some would like the issues intertwined. I get that. That certainly would be the best option. We might come to regret our choice. But it is not an option we were given.

I voted based on what was put in front of me.

My suggestion is that a lot of pressure be put on ACPA to resolve the article 1 infraction. Don’t accept the “we feel confident in our chances,” rebuttal. That historically has been sheep to slaughter.

Counterpoint,

We haven’t lost jobs in every article one grievance. But I don’t think we are even 50/50. If you add up all 75 seat jet jobs that were lost in arbitration, even though our article 1 language said it had to be done at mainline, you will understand the historical concern.

What if the company does want arbitration? What would they want? One of two things. More or larger jets at CPA carriers. Historically it is the result of crisis that we lose jobs in arbitration. Here we are in a crisis once again. And yet again another article 1 grievance. Up until very recently AC had a large fleet of 75-90 seat jets. They are gone. What pray tell do you think the company may want to replace them with?

Many of us have watched this movie multiple times. Every time ACPA says we like our chances. Every time ACPA breaks up the issues into pieces. Every time we work with the company while they are actively stealing our lunch. Some people have had enough. I get it. It has even spilled over into a desire for some to quit ACPA and join a ALPA.

The problem is arbitration is not free from political interference. Notice the Governments recent focus on regional routes.

My guess is the company has decided they don’t like the fin ratio in the article 1 language, now that the E190/E175 is gone. The Covid crisis has provided an opportunity. Unless we change our strategy my guess is we lose more jobs before everyone is recalled.

Both of you have very valid concerns

[planebored]

What you and your conspiracy phanatiques did was crap on the ACPA for raising pay (during a force majeure), maintain scope parameters that make sense during a complete loss of revenue period, save pilot jobs that would have been laid off. You voted against all that.

600 on the streets and 194 (if your side “wins” the vote) about to join them, why don’t you give them your name, instead of your opinion.

Ça va faire Rippie, calme toi.

CP

Technically they didn't raise pay.

It's more than the undemocratic MOA1, but less than the collective agreement which would have been reverted to October 1.

If you think the company was going to stop paying everyone October 1 you're high. Maybe put down the crack pipe.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

I hate to disappoint the conspiracy theorists, but this vote will pass by a wide margin.

The scope conspiracy is dead in the water...you have a very sad individual trying to beat that drum but that person has all sorts of other issues...

The fact is that ever since there have been social media bulletin boards, there has been a small and loud minority of pilots who vote NO for every vote...fortunately they represent 5-10% of the membership. They try and make it sound like there is a grassroots support for their theories for voting no, but they never deliver the votes. The say things like "I have never voted yes for any deal ACPA has presented in the past XX years". And yet the votes pass.

For some reason, they claim in their words and attitudes that they know more than the all of the MEC, Negots Committee, the professional staff of ACPA and all the external consultants that ACPA hires. They make vaguely worded accusations about trust, conspiracy, conflicts of interest...but can never point out a specific charge. Some people might call this arrogance.

I'm willing to admit that there are a lot of people who know a lot more about union contracts, labour law, negotiating etc.

Sadly the HARD NO group doesn't' even entertain the fact that they don't know what they are talking about.

[Counterpoint]

Planebored,

Technically, you told almost 200 of our friends to go and apply for EI. Then you told 600 others to wait a while longer, you’ve got some point you’d like to make with the company.

At 5% passenger load compared to last year ya I think 63 hours is a pay raise all day long. When was the last time you flew 63 hours?

I can see why the MEC didn’t want you to vote on MOA 1, with your Full pay contract by October 1 kind You have no clear understanding of what’s going on in our industry. Force majeure? No revenue period? Parked airplanes in several storage facilities? SARS-Cov-2 scaring governments and passengers? Does any of that in your opinion look like we’re going to go back to a full contract pay for all pilots on October 1?

And your asking me to put the gummie bears away ?

Remember this, you and Rippie voted to Lay more pilots off. Do the furloughed and surplus pilots a favour and please stop telling us how you voted, maybe please stop voting.

Soyons raisonnable planey.

CP

[altiplano]

What does Force Majeure allows them to do in the contract?

Has anyone looked that up?

We aren't getting a raise, all we're doing is making concessions after we've gone 6 years in a concessionary contract, plus hit with FOS 2 years before that...

At least in the good times we should have been making gains, the fact is our contract is already in the sewer and we're giving more!?

If you still believe that we should make more concessions now, then we should share in the wealth when the upswing comes. Raises, scheduling improvements, full pay DH, something at least!

United pilots got 5%, improved DH rules, scheduling improvements, among other tidbits for helping out through these times in their TA.

They don't just give it up... yet here we are... like a crack whore for a dime bag... except we don't even get the dime bag or of the deal...

[Counterpoint]

Altipiano,

Is UA running at 5% revenue ?

You’d rather put more pilots on the streets for some scheduling rules and DH credits ? You think this is the time for that ?

Crack this Crack that, you consPIRACY guys are on a trend.

Réveille toi Alti.

CP

[landshark]

UA has also received a massive bailout from the US Govt

[ACpirate]

I will listen to the second webinar again and very carefully look for the WHY on the Rouge let. There was a clear WHY for the JV let. There is also information from the scope committee that the request for the Rouge let be for a much longer duration....the why is a little more apparent in that context.

Good luck to all of us. Whatever the result we are going to need it.

[planebored]

Pay everyone the same, with the same work rules and one pilot list where you bid for Rouge or ML flying and I could care less how long a "Rouge let" is.

The sooner LOU74 is in the trash bin, the better.

Sorry not sorry Rougies.

[supersoniccble]

What does Force Majeure allows them to do in the contract?

Has anyone looked that up?

We aren't getting a raise, all we're doing is making concessions after we've gone 6 years in a concessionary contract, plus hit with FOS 2 years before that...

At least in the good times we should have been making gains, the fact is our contract is already in the sewer and we're giving more!?

If you still believe that we should make more concessions now, then we should share in the wealth when the upswing comes. Raises, scheduling improvements, full pay DH, something at least!

United pilots got 5%, improved DH rules, scheduling improvements, among other tidbits for helping out through these times in their TA.

They don't just give it up... yet here we are... like a crack whore for a dime bag... except we don't even get the dime bag or of the deal...

OMG You pilots are a bunch of whining fools. I hope the vote passes. Glad we are getting 5 more hours than Westjet. Too bad about the 100 layoffs. Man could be 200 more. Cant believe he have to give concessions. Listen to yourselves. Consider yourselves lucky to even be on the payroll right row. What can the company do with Force Majeure ? Why dont you ask all the other employee groups that dont have jobs. How about the poor guys worried about how they are going to put food on the table all while your one employee group is bankrupting the company.

Some of you havent flown for quite a while(MAX) all still collecting a paycheque. Cant tell me the company needs 4300 pilots on payroll while there is only 10% capacity. Funny how pilots dont want to use the term laid off, but furloughed. How is it the company can layoff thousands in other work groups under the guise of Force Majeure but you guys cant be.....but you whine and complain when 100 get laidoff. You should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you act. The rest of the company should be screaming bloody murder the way we are treated as second class.

There were over 5000 applications for a pilot position at Morningstar for a 757 cojo. A lot of you guys looking for work. Dont think your job is as secure as you think. The company cant keep paying 4000 pilots close to $40 million in salary each month with nothing else coming in. For the past 6 months thats $240 million in salary just for your group. Too bad for the 5000 flight attendants, the 3000 maintenance guys, thousands of rampies and CSAs. Oh sorry forgot to mention the countless management positions that were permanently axed. Oh and lastly the 100 pilots. All because the company used Force Majeure.

So instead of worrying about your stupid concessions your stupid vote and getting a few more hours than Westjet. Take a good hard look in the mirror and say to youselves holy crap we are lucky to have a job because a lot of our colleagues dont.