COVID MOA 2

[altiplano]

- still paying extra into an overfunded account while the company takes a holiday and in fact monetizes it with a MER and subsidiary re-insurance scam. remember, when they wind it up, the corp keeps the surplus too!

Ummmm.

Don’t know about the Mars Exploration Rover or auto insurance.

But the pension surplus belongs to the pilots.

Not if the plan is wrapped up. Ask your pension chair what happens to any surplus - who gets it - when there is nobody left for it to pay out.

[altiplano]

I guess you are right Altipaino, you also seem angry.

The ACPA has leverage, and should stop asking the pilots for any changes to the contract. It’ll all be just fine.

Revenue for Q2/2020 was 11% of Q2/2019. Nothing to see here.

AC is on track for a 5+ Billion dollar loss for this year. Just a temporary blip, carry on.

Our timing for contract improvements has never been better. No concessions !

Your « no » vote will show to your colleagues that you feel they are expendable (that makes me angry) and show the company you mean business.

Virus, pandemic and industry pppft not the ACPA’s problem. I feel so silly for even suggesting your logic was wrong.

Lâche pas Alti t’est hotte

CP

Angry? No rational.

Nothing substantive to add from you though... No surprise there... Just the same... "No voters don't care about those getting furloughed" which isn't true. Just push the corporate narrative, insult and make false insinuations.

I never said there weren't problems, but exposing our flank just to kick the can down the road 6 months doesn't benefit anyone.

I'm okay with lower hours to save jobs, certainty is great for us and the corp, but we added so much more to this MOA for a company that is refusing CEWS in favour of letting members go, violating scope because they sent our planes to a CPA, and are a hard no on snap backs... think about that... they won't entertain snapbacks on our concessions.

Do you think the corporation is doing us a favour with this MOA? Do you think there is nothing really in it for them beyond 2 hours mainline MRG savings on a minimum block DBM?

[a220hereicome]

Ummmm.

Don’t know about the Mars Exploration Rover or auto insurance.

But the pension surplus belongs to the pilots.

Not if it is wrapped up. Ask your pension chair what happens to any surplus - who gets it - when there is nobody left for it to pay out.

In 75 years when we’re all dead? The cyborg shareholders can keep it. Who cares.

If it’s wound up next year during the COVID crisis, which is what I thought we were discussing, then the pilots keep it.

TD

[altiplano]

What was the point of the growth/shrink ratio of we are just going to set it aside on the first downturn?

"first downturn" Wow....you really need to get out a little...if that's your read of the situation then no wonder your ideas are so out in left field

Is this not the first downturn since 2017 when we added the LCC growth/shrink?

Why don't you enlighten me then.

We bought and paid for the LCC shrink ratio with negotiating capital to protect mainline flying from being shifted to the LCC. The NC/MEC of the time told us this was an important protection.

Tying Mainline to ACrouge to improve limits and protections

ACPA’s Negotiating Committee (NC) fully recognizes the wrenching changes that have arisen within the pilot group since the LCC was first introduced in TA1 in 2011.

From an operational perspective, there was a significant shift of aircraft and jobs from Mainline to ACrouge. Between 2014 and 2016, the Mainline shrunk from 205 aircraft in 2013 to 168-171 aircraft for a number of reasons. These included the disposal of 15 E175s, and the ramp up of ACrouge to 44 aircraft and 483 pilots (QPOS) by the end of 2016.

Since the introduction of LOU 74, the Company has had a ceiling in terms of rouge limits, but no floor that would limit its ability to shrink Mainline – either in terms of fins or in terms of pilot productivity – in favour of a shift to rouge.

LOU language concerns

As we have operated under the language within LOU 74, which was imposed on ACPA through FOS, it has given rise to concerns. In any discussion about ACrouge, ACPA’s NC has been keen to address some important issues, including:

No downturn protections – While there has been a hard cap of 50 fins at rouge, there is no protection for Mainline pilots in the event of a downturn. As currently written, AC could reduce productivity on Mainline aircraft – including parking them – and increase flying at rouge.

Vague route protections – Language specifying which routes ACrouge can be deployed is less specific than we would like. AC has transferred a number of Mainline routes to ACrouge -- including Victoria, Bogota and many others. While we have grieved the Bogota route transfer, the language in LOU 74 is challenging:

L74.01.01 The mandate of the LCC will be limited to the market segment seeking low-cost air travel. The LCC is not intended to replace Mainline routes the Company considers financially viable. The LCC’s success and viability depend on the parties’ ability to fulfill this mandate on a competitive basis.

L74.01.02 Notwithstanding the above, operations on any other routes will be subject to mutual agreement between the Company and ACPA.

Of course nobody ever thought we'd shrink 3 years ago, but here we are... First opportunity to give up this important protection we do...

Don't take my word for it, here's Jalmer explaining it:

https://acpa.ca/members/internal-archiv ... emati.aspx

Maybe you should get out and understand the contract and protections and why they are there a little more.

[altiplano]

Ummmm.

Don’t know about the Mars Exploration Rover or auto insurance.

But the pension surplus belongs to the pilots.

Not if it is wrapped up. Ask your pension chair what happens to any surplus - who gets it - when there is nobody left for it to pay out.

In 75 years when we’re all dead? The cyborg shareholders can keep it. Who cares.

If it’s wound up next year during the COVID crisis, which is what I thought we were discussing, then the pilots keep it.

TD

Talk to your Pension Chair. There are scenarios where the company winds it up sooner and the pilots don't get the surplus.

Even if it was when we're all dead, why did we continue to pay 25% extra into a plan that we couldn't get improvements on just for cyborgs to get it in the end. F-that.

[Counterpoint]

Altipiano,

Rational ? Let’s have a look at that. This is a « downturn » there are some « problems » the company isn’t doing us any « favours », the company is « refusing CEWS ».

You want this moa2 voted down, that puts 190+ more pilots on the streets. You can’t separate that, your NO vote has a direct affect on pilots being furloughed. Your rationale is that there is permanent damage to our « job security » must be protected ahead of sending more pilots off the payroll.

Your rational reaction to the « problems » is completely out of touch with what Air Canada can sustain in the next year of losses. It isn’t a downturn or a problem, it is the very worst economic hit to AC ever. It isn’t over, it will affect the size of the airline for years to come.

Your rational look at doing the company any favours is to vote no to a company that needs help. You think this is the last ask from AC ? You really want to stop them from adjusting fleets on routes until revenues come back sometime in the far off future ?

By accepting the CEWS, the company would assume the other HR costs of having employees. Your rational response is to hold that against them, another cost item for more employees than they need ?

You want lower hours ? How low would you go ? They did ask on the ACPA survey, what did you put ? Would you go down to the hours you are flying in October ?

You seem destructive and angry (crack comments, f-bombs etc.) and that probably leads to a mind set of thinking you’re being ripped off, but if the losses accumulate and the ACPA doesn’t make changes you will have put all of us at risk, a risk that we are being compensated for by this moa2 paying us for work we aren’t flying, and allowing the company to react to the pandemic, but more importantly keeping the 190+ Pilots from the unemployment line. Protect those pilots now, consider yourself paid for the time off, accept the scope without prejudice wording. This isn’t a first downturn event Alti this is potentially the last one.

2.75 Billion in losses in two quarters this year, two more quarters to go and after that it isn’t the end of it. Q3 revenues will be be low, Q4 even lower compared to 2019.

I don’t like what you call rational.

Tu pourra faire mieux Alti !

CP

[altiplano]

Why do you keep misspelling altiplano?

A couple times I get... but it's like you're doing it on purpose.

re:cursing, I like bullshitting around and I'm not a Mormon so forgive the expletives.

Anyway, you have one thing right. The company will absolutely come with another ask, looking for more <<help>>, they always will, especially since you are willing to be leveraged. But ultimately it won't matter, kick the can down the road, the layoffs will come as soon as 50%+1 pilots are no longer interested in being gutted.

Hours, 55, 63, if it saves jobs by spreading the pain, I can take it. I'm not happy about it, but it is what it is, and we are helping our members. Although I think that ultimately the jobs won't be saved for long, as soon as the company gets a better view of its plan they will right size.

How much are you willing to give in the next ask? Where do you stop? Should we move the whole airline to the LCC? Should we send the A220 to Jazz? How about Cargo? They will come...

re:CEWS they could do a pay your own benefits situation, or there could be solutions allowing them to access it at low to no cost, seems other airlines/unions found solutions, but the corp wasn't interested in that, non-starter.

Speak of non-starters how do you reconcile that they wouldn't entertain snap backs?

Also why do you only shill for votes on avcanada? your have posted on nothing else. Are you an Air Canada Pilot even or company social media manager?

[planebored]

Not if it is wrapped up. Ask your pension chair what happens to any surplus - who gets it - when there is nobody left for it to pay out.

In 75 years when we’re all dead? The cyborg shareholders can keep it. Who cares.

If it’s wound up next year during the COVID crisis, which is what I thought we were discussing, then the pilots keep it.

TD

Talk to your Pension Chair. There are scenarios where the company winds it up sooner and the pilots don't get the surplus.

Even if it was when we're all dead, why did we continue to pay 25% extra into a plan that we couldn't get improvements on just for cyborgs to get it in the end. F-that.

I don't know much about the DB, but could they for example... wind it up and take any extra "surplus" and throw it into an account to pay for the SERP?

[a220hereicome]

In 75 years when we’re all dead? The cyborg shareholders can keep it. Who cares.

If it’s wound up next year during the COVID crisis, which is what I thought we were discussing, then the pilots keep it.

TD

Talk to your Pension Chair. There are scenarios where the company winds it up sooner and the pilots don't get the surplus.

Even if it was when we're all dead, why did we continue to pay 25% extra into a plan that we couldn't get improvements on just for cyborgs to get it in the end. F-that.

I don't know much about the DB, but could they for example... wind it up and take any extra "surplus" and throw it into an account to pay for the SERP?

That’s exactly what they’re required to do if the Company goes belly up. Which is what I mean when I say the pilots own the surplus.

[Counterpoint]

Altiplano, the barren high plains of South America, got it.

Yes, I am a pilot and like you a member at the ACPA.

I have always trusted the ACPA with my contract and all the NC that have worked on my behalf. I trust them now, I trusted them all my career. My experience changed once in 2006/07 with the wage reopener because I saw for the first time that the NC was trying to make gains that made no sense. My second déception came in 2012 with NC2 also making the same no sense asks.

But all the others from Bob P. to now I’ve found very good. I use CounterPoint because I feel that whenever I read disingenuous posts I thing it important for people to consider the other side of the point of a post. I find your posts wild, I find your point of view jaded by a feeling of not considering what YOU want, versus what WE need. I don’t like swearing, I find it unnecessary, I prefer posts that consider the real world.

I ask how many hours people have flown and how many pay credits they’ve earned. I don’t think this is the time to make contract gains (like dh credits and scheduling rules) because now is not a time we’ve ever seen in our careers. How low I can be leveraged I leave up to the NC, and so far in this crisis, I trust my NC. If the NC saves all the jobs but asks us to vote for all those jobs to be at the LCC (both items in the extreme) I trust them to be right. I listen to the webies and I read their stuff. I’ll say it again, I trust them.

What I don’t understand is. Why don’t you ? I think the answer is because you don’t feel happy with the realities that come our way during our careers. But your feelings don’t have any bearing on a bankruptcy, or CCAA or a pandemic. So, I wonder why you don’t want to save (for six months) 190+ pilots ? It’s six months more, and the NC via the webbie explained all the scope stuff without prejudice language.

I don’t post on other web boards because I’m not a social media manager whatever that is. As for the .. forum, no thanks, same old crazies over and over again. As for the P4C, I got no opinion yet, I’ve read their website but nothing stands out other than the same old.

Let me answer what you really want to know. I trust my NC, my scope chair, my pension chair and so far I think they’ve done a very good job.

C’tu assez clair ?

CP

[altiplano]

Talk to your Pension Chair. There are scenarios where the company winds it up sooner and the pilots don't get the surplus.

Even if it was when we're all dead, why did we continue to pay 25% extra into a plan that we couldn't get improvements on just for cyborgs to get it in the end. F-that.

I don't know much about the DB, but could they for example... wind it up and take any extra "surplus" and throw it into an account to pay for the SERP?

That’s exactly what they’re required to do if the Company goes belly up. Which is what I mean when I say the pilots own the surplus.

Right in a liquidation scenario, AC Pilots DB surplus component is unique among AC DB plans in that, but there are other scenarios to winding up the plan... anyway I digress.

Hour or so to go. Either way I hope we see a good voter turn out in the end, and pay close attention to the results and Corp's response/actions going forward.

[altiplano]

Altiplano, the barren high plains of South America, got it.

Yes, I am a pilot and like you a member at the ACPA.

I have always trusted the ACPA with my contract and all the NC that have worked on my behalf. I trust them now, I trusted them all my career. My experience changed once in 2006/07 with the wage reopener because I saw for the first time that the NC was trying to make gains that made no sense. My second déception came in 2012 with NC2 also making the same no sense asks.

But all the others from Bob P. to now I’ve found very good. I use CounterPoint because I feel that whenever I read disingenuous posts I thing it important for people to consider the other side of the point of a post. I find your posts wild, I find your point of view jaded by a feeling of not considering what YOU want, versus what WE need. I don’t like swearing, I find it unnecessary, I prefer posts that consider the real world.

I ask how many hours people have flown and how many pay credits they’ve earned. I don’t think this is the time to make contract gains (like dh credits and scheduling rules) because now is not a time we’ve ever seen in our careers. How low I can be leveraged I leave up to the NC, and so far in this crisis, I trust my NC. If the NC saves all the jobs but asks us to vote for all those jobs to be at the LCC (both items in the extreme) I trust them to be right. I listen to the webies and I read their stuff. I’ll say it again, I trust them.

What I don’t understand is. Why don’t you ? I think the answer is because you don’t feel happy with the realities that come our way during our careers. But your feelings don’t have any bearing on a bankruptcy, or CCAA or a pandemic. So, I wonder why you don’t want to save (for six months) 190+ pilots ? It’s six months more, and the NC via the webbie explained all the scope stuff without prejudice language.

I don’t post on other web boards because I’m not a social media manager whatever that is. As for the .. forum, no thanks, same old crazies over and over again. As for the P4C, I got no opinion yet, I’ve read their website but nothing stands out other than the same old.

Let me answer what you really want to know. I trust my NC, my scope chair, my pension chair and so far I think they’ve done a very good job.

C’tu assez clair ?

CP

Okay, you're a Yes man. I got it...

You come out of the shadows and pump the concessionary agreements because you trust everyone... that's your MO.

And you go to the same old:
"why don't you want to save 190 jobs for 6 months"
when I've told you that's not the case at all...

I also think it's important to consider the other side of issues. Unfortunately at ACPA, that's not what we get, we get one sided sell jobs and threats along with compressed timelines. We need to see and discuss all sides of the issues we are deciding on.

You only want to consider one side.

You mistake critical discussion, concern, and passion with anger.

[BTD]

...... I’ll say it again, I trust them.

What I don’t understand is. Why don’t you ?.......

I’ll always give some in-depth thought to anything that is presented. The point ACPA really lost my trust was the newsletter June 2017 to the newsletter July 2017.

The about face in that week and a half period and going back on what they themselves said they would do, was very costly in the trust department.

Go back and have a read under newsletters on the ACPA website. Does it mean everything done is a lie... No. Does it mean I’m going to read between the lines and not take anything at face value, you’re damn right.

[RVR6000]

...... I’ll say it again, I trust them.

What I don’t understand is. Why don’t you ?.......

I’ll always give some in-depth thought to anything that is presented. The point ACPA really lost my trust was the newsletter June 2017 to the newsletter July 2017.

The about face in that week and a half period and going back on what they themselves said they would do, was very costly in the trust department.

Go back and have a read under newsletters on the ACPA website. Does it mean everything done is a lie... No. Does it mean I’m going to read between the lines and not take anything at face value, you’re damn right.

+1

The damage that KV did is ever lasting. I’m voting Yes simply for job perseverance, this isn’t the environment for righting the mistakes of the past.

[landshark]

82.5% YES

89% turnout

[Mrbobmarly111]

Yeah wow 82.5% yes to get MOA #2.

And a huge turnout of 89% of eligible voters voting.

Keep that in mind that over 50% of people on Av canada here are perpetually Pis$ed at ACPA and think this is a $Hite deal. But it obviously doesn't reflect the majority of true Air Canada pilots.

For everyone reading what goes on in discussions on this site keep that in mind.

[Dry Guy]

Good. Those boomer conspiracy theorists whipping each other into a frenzy were starting to concern me. Plus the rogue MEC member, whom I'm afraid literally has schizophrenia, egging them on. I can't imagine what the 81 that already had layoff notices for Oct. 1 were feeling. Hopefully they had more sense than me and stopped reading that other forum.

[altiplano]

Lots of fear out there.

I'm glad the fixed rate guys get a bump back to contract guarantee and 180 guys can sleep better tonight. Although with that result the corp no doubt thinks they gave too much.

Anyway, let's hold them to every ounce of it and get ready for the next assault on our contract, it's coming...

[Mrbobmarly111]

Yes now lets hope Air Canada doesn't start painting their planes Transat Blue and we dont start outsourcing flying to Swoooop and in 6 months we can say.

I told ya so

If that happens ill eat my own face BTW

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

Is this not the first downturn since 2017 when we added the LCC growth/shrink?

right.....you really don't understand do you...it's not the first downturn since 2017...it's the first world-wide meltdown in the aviation industry ever....point to me the language in the CA pertaining to world-wide pandemics and economic collapse

Okay, you're a Yes man. I got it...

yes, and you're a bitter, chicken-little-the-sky-is-falling if you vote yes, you-can't-trust anyone, nay-saying NO man...