Cargo TA

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snowcone
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Cargo TA

Post by snowcone »

Is there actually anyone considering voting yes on this pile of garbage?

I can't believe the negots/MEC put this out to the membership.

I am completely embarrassed to be an ACPA member right now and apologise to the rest our fellow aviators in Canada on lowering the bar (again) for everyone.
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RippleRock
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by RippleRock »

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Last edited by RippleRock on Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RippleRock
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by RippleRock »

RippleRock wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:28 pm This is proof that the MEC can only negotiate and deliver $hit sandwiches to the Membership.

You'd have to have self respect as a group to vote NO. We have none, so easy "yup" on the first draft.

It will pass, with a WACON garrantee lower than CargoJet. Something like a 220 wage to fly a Widebody. With no dedicated rest facility. It will be used as another wedge between groups.

It was announced today that a Vaccine is 90% effective. This is astounding. If it ends up only being 75% effective, it is still phenomenal. There will be a flood of new vaccine announcements within a month as ten others are in Phase three development. This is "short sighted" "worst case" MOU that will be a permanent "bar lowering event" if voted into existence. The world will be closer to normal by the day now, while we further descend into the depths in a futile attempt to save jobs and the Corp, and diverge further from our contract.

This has has become pathetic. I give up.
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Fanblade
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Fanblade »

No complaining. We voted against change. Remember?

I believe in democracy even if I don’t like the results.

Most of our members clearly want this because they voted for status quo.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rudder
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by rudder »

Will the resulting pay rate be lower than Rouge 767 pay rate?
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Sharklasers
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Sharklasers »

RippleRock wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:50 pm
RippleRock wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:28 pm This is proof that the MEC can only negotiate and deliver $hit sandwiches to the Membership.

You'd have to have self respect as a group to vote NO. We have none, so easy "yup" on the first draft.

It will pass, with a WACON garrantee lower than CargoJet. Something like a 220 wage to fly a Widebody. With no dedicated rest facility. It will be used as another wedge between groups.

It was announced today that a Vaccine is 90% effective. This is astounding. If it ends up only being 75% effective, it is still phenomenal. There will be a flood of new vaccine announcements within a month as ten others are in Phase three development. This is "short sighted" "worst case" MOU that will be a permanent "bar lowering event" if voted into existence. The world will be closer to normal by the day now, while we further descend into the depths in a futile attempt to save jobs and the Corp, and diverge further from our contract.

This has has become pathetic. I give up.
Holy hyperbole batman.

Are you for real or just a troll?

Its 90% of mainline 767 wages. Big raise from the rouge flying.
With mainline working conditions to boot. It could bring hundreds of pilots back from the street and save some sense of career progression. Anyone off of flat pay will be the highest paid cargo pilots in Canada.

One man, One vote.
The nice thing is when this passes because its a pretty ok deal you wont have to bid it. You can just bitch loudly and continuously to your FO on transcons while he ignores you and looks out the window.
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Fanblade
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:58 pm Will the resulting pay rate be lower than Rouge 767 pay rate?
90% of mainline hourly wages. No mention of nav or overseas pay so I assume it won’t be paid. So about 80% ish of mainline. But as stated better than Rouge 767 pay.
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BTD
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by BTD »

It is my go to.
CD9ECCCC-6862-4111-9EA3-C61059B749BC.jpeg
CD9ECCCC-6862-4111-9EA3-C61059B749BC.jpeg (61.75 KiB) Viewed 6060 times
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Sharklasers
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Sharklasers »

Fanblade wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:02 pm
rudder wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:58 pm Will the resulting pay rate be lower than Rouge 767 pay rate?
90% of mainline hourly wages. No mention of nav or overseas pay so I assume it won’t be paid. So about 80% ish of mainline. But as stated better than Rouge 767 pay.
Have you read the actual LOU yet?
Nav and Overseas pay are addressed in article 12.


From the LOU
L86.01.07
"All other pay rates of article 12 of the collective agreement, including fixed rate pay, shall apply"
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Tdicommuter
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Tdicommuter »

To sway minds insults, condescension, and passive aggressive comments do not get you far.

If you are actually starting a thread here and are opening a conversation take the time to post stuff that is not emotionally charged.

I do not know how I feel about this LOU yet. I have a few questions like if it is a NJA like the 67 was at Rouge, then why are there only 12 days off guaranteed? At Rouge they made it a NJA so that max days worked was 16. Why are rest facilities not put into the language? Is that a standard for other cargo operators?

Why is there language put in place about a future other type of aircraft? There should not be an argument about rates. If it is an existing type air Canada already operates then it should be pegged to the mainline rate right? If it's a 747 cargo config aka a whole new type for air Canada then a negotiation should take place right?

Personally I'm not commiting either way as I do not assume the Pfizer vaccine has a short term impact on our jobs.
Long term there are some big questions I am unconvinced have been answered yet.

Do not though make this an ALPA argument and blah blah blah. Let's just stick to having a civil discussion about an important question
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BTD
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by BTD »

Sharklasers wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:00 pm
RippleRock wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:50 pm
RippleRock wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:28 pm This is proof that the MEC can only negotiate and deliver $hit sandwiches to the Membership.

You'd have to have self respect as a group to vote NO. We have none, so easy "yup" on the first draft.

It will pass, with a WACON garrantee lower than CargoJet. Something like a 220 wage to fly a Widebody. With no dedicated rest facility. It will be used as another wedge between groups.

It was announced today that a Vaccine is 90% effective. This is astounding. If it ends up only being 75% effective, it is still phenomenal. There will be a flood of new vaccine announcements within a month as ten others are in Phase three development. This is "short sighted" "worst case" MOU that will be a permanent "bar lowering event" if voted into existence. The world will be closer to normal by the day now, while we further descend into the depths in a futile attempt to save jobs and the Corp, and diverge further from our contract.

This has has become pathetic. I give up.
Holy hyperbole batman.

Are you for real or just a troll?

Its 90% of mainline 767 wages. Big raise from the rouge flying.
With mainline working conditions to boot. It could bring hundreds of pilots back from the street and save some sense of career progression. Anyone off of flat pay will be the highest paid cargo pilots in Canada.

One man, One vote.
The nice thing is when this passes because its a pretty ok deal you wont have to bid it. You can just bitch loudly and continuously to your FO on transcons while he ignores you and looks out the window.
It is only 90% of mainline pay because why not try. It will pass. And 12 days off a month... sweet.

Vote no. Send it back, fix the bs and then we can vote again.
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RVR6000
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by RVR6000 »

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Last edited by RVR6000 on Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

90% pay
12 days off
No pay guarantees on inefficient flying.
We will be the lowest paid cargo pilots in the continent.
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TheStig
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by TheStig »

What am I missing?

A 12th year Cargojet Captain will earn $209/hour and a 1st Year Captain $130/hour as of June 1st 2021.

As of April 2nd 2021 under this LOU, at 90%, excluding Nav aid and Overseas pay, a 12th year AC 767 Cargo Captain would earn 223.36 (Day) and 250.12 (Night) or 236.75 blended, that's $8/hour more than the A320 and 7 more than the L767. A Year 1 Captain would be 216.47 blended.

I'm going to listen to the webinar, I don't know much about the airfreight business.
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Inverted2
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Inverted2 »

Hope it all works out for you guys. Would be nice if it’s not all night flying. That shit will age you FAST.
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rudder
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by rudder »

Inverted2 wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:04 pm Hope it all works out for you guys. Would be nice if it’s not all night flying. That shit will age you FAST.
More likely long haul international.
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JcPd_flyer
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by JcPd_flyer »

They cut 10% because those cargo pilots will be doing a lot of night rate flying and the company is trying to balance that out. Night rates are higher for reasons and the company failing to acknowledge that is simply unethical and it's another proof of we are just names and numbers to them.

The company needs the revenue from cargo ops right now and we all know that AC announced this cargo business plan during the 3rd Q earnings call. The investors know about it, our stock skyrocketed and now AC NEEDS TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN. So why are we settling for less?!? SEND IT BACK and let them FIX IT. Our negots and MEC aren't gonna try hard if we keep taking s**ts like this. how are we ever gonna catch up to what we have lost for the past 10 years?? it's not only costing us, but we are dragging the entire Canadian aviation down. I'm sick and tired of helping the company and so should you be. please vote No, please
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discountpilot
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by discountpilot »

Someone on the AC forum made a great post about how this all breaks down for minimum pay guarantees... Based on the math which looks to check out, based on the min guarantee it will be less than Rouge and CJ because there is no 77.5 and no 2x draft. Rougies be careful thinking this is a pay raise from L767 rates.

Be careful what you wish for everyone, this is all smoke and mirrors. This will not make new positions and will end up setting a precedent for any future types moving to cargo ops. Someone else posted a basic break down of the hourly savings and it was between $25-$65/hr savings for a 3 man crew.... hardly a make it or break it number for a future cargo operation.
Year 12 Mainline 767 Captain pay April 2021:

$248 day and $278 night

Therefore Cargo pays -10%

$223 day and $250 night - blend to $238 balanced towards night

The problem with the cargo operation is it will likely be at ML minimum guarantee. Probably working 50 hours for 16 days or the like.

Minimum guarantee will be as per ML. DBM 70 which means blocking window of 65-71. Probably blocked to below. Effectively the minimum guarantee will be 65 hours x 12.

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767F YEAR 12 CAPT APR 2021 MINIMUM GUARANTEE:

65 hours x $238/hour x 12 months = $185,640

71 hours overseas/month x 12.75 x 12 months = $10,863 (if applicable in this deal)

5 training events/year x 4 hours x $238 = $4,800 (4 SIMS and 1 ART)

TOTAL YEARLY MIN GUARANTEE = $201,123

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ROUGE 767 YEAR 12 CAPT APR 2021 MINIMUM GUARANTEE:

77.5 x $229/hour x 12 = $212,970

5 training events/year x 4.5 hours x $229 = $5,152

TOTAL YEARLY MIN GUARANTEE = $218,122

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CARGOJET YEAR 12 CAPT JULY 2021 MINIMUM GUARANTEE:

Based on 85 hours, hourly rate $209/hour- see attached pay table - training included in pay.

TOTAL YEARLY MIN GUARANTEE: $212,878
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altiplano
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by altiplano »

TheStig wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:44 pm What am I missing?

A 12th year Cargojet Captain will earn $209/hour and a 1st Year Captain $130/hour as of June 1st 2021.

As of April 2nd 2021 under this LOU, at 90%, excluding Nav aid and Overseas pay, a 12th year AC 767 Cargo Captain would earn 223.36 (Day) and 250.12 (Night) or 236.75 blended, that's $8/hour more than the A320 and 7 more than the L767. A Year 1 Captain would be 216.47 blended.

I'm going to listen to the webinar, I don't know much about the airfreight business.
Cargojet has a higher guarantee and better capped work days. Take home on this will be less than L767 at rouge for more work days.
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Air.Field
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Re: Cargo TA

Post by Air.Field »

rudder wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:22 pm
Inverted2 wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:04 pm Hope it all works out for you guys. Would be nice if it’s not all night flying. That shit will age you FAST.
More likely long haul international.
Long haul international nights (mostly) or even just within NA, with 12 GDO... my condolences to the crews flying that. Even with 14-16 off there is burn out and side effects.
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Last edited by Air.Field on Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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