Cargo TA

[Kosiw]

The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many.....it would appear.

[a220hereicome]

...the union only gave a s#%t about the guys who have been here 20+ years, or those who are part of the “old boys club” and that I had better get used to it.

Really? And do you believe that?

Is that how you remember our reopener in 2017 (if you were here)? That it was all about the senior crowd? You know, the contract where the entire membership swallowed a bitter pill (ACrouge growth) in exchange for a better retirement plan for the junior members? Most of the bargaining capital three years ago was directed at the junior end.

[Hangry]

...the union only gave a s#%t about the guys who have been here 20+ years, or those who are part of the “old boys club” and that I had better get used to it.

Really? And do you believe that?

Is that how you would describe our reopener in 2017 (if you were here)? That it was all about the senior crowd? You know, the contract where the entire membership swallowed a bitter pill (ACrouge growth) to get a proper retirement plan for the junior members? Seems to me that most of the bargaining capital three years ago was directed at the junior end.

DB is the proper retirement plan.

[YesMassaPayson]

I love it when guys of this vintage try and justify their self-interest.

"But look what we did for you in TA2017!!" - Sorry, we are still on a b-scale pension.

"But look we're getting you cargo jobs!!" - Flying you would never in a million years be willing to do, at a rate you would never accept.

The one great thing about the b-scale pension is that when I'm gone, I'm gone. I will never have to worry about Air Canada's profitability ever again, like these guys do every morning when they wake up to the Bahamian sun rising next to their boat.

[altiplano]

There you go. You're talking bases in different countries, not Cargo vs. PAX.

PAX crews in bases make different than PAX crews in HKG too.

You aren't presenting facts, you are pushing fear and fallacies based on your inaccurate information.

Brother, just read my post. I am talking cargo vs pax.

A Cathay pilot in Los Angeles, New York or Vancouver will be paid about 11% less flying the B747F than if they were at mainline on the same base and the same seat on the B747.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Of course the pay scales and housing allowances are higher in Hong Kong, it costs $1M for a closet with a fold-out bunk and a hotplate. Sounds like fun.

That's a strawman. HKG real estate has nothing to do with it.

Are their PAX 747s at the bases too compare it to? Nope. So you're comparing HKG with bases and that's an accurate comparison. Also the CX pay structure has a monthly guarantee, plus hourly flight pay among other parts. Can you confirm where the 11% is?

I think almost every base is on its own contract too. Can you post them here? Maybe you can reference the clause that says "Freighter pilots get 11% less".

Otherwise all I see in your claim is conjecture. As I said, I heard directly from a Cathay friend on it, and I read the above posted terms and pay conditions.

I am happy to be pointed out to be wrong by a Cathay Pilot at a particular base, or by a document detailing it, but <2 year forum member with 17 posts all pro-ACPA concessions isn't high on my credibility list.

You have no response to the levels of pay either. Even if they did have 10% off their 50% pay cut, they are still making more than our highest paid Mainline Pilots.

This work is coming either way we don't need concessions to get it because it's ours. Contentions that they need additional revenue like yesterday are correct, and a few bucks an hour from us doesn't change that. Also since they need this revenue yesterday so you really think they haven't already booked the conversions? That they don't already have their plans in motion? And if they didn't have their freighter conversions already in motion it's going to be 8 or 10 months before they get anything, after the dire of earnings during the pandemic is largely in the rear view mirror.

Also, why do you think they are doing this before the terms of the reopener are settled? I think everyone forgot about that or thinks that it has been settled. Nope. Stand by for something that will leave a bad taste and wondering what the @#$! were we thinking?

They can't force pay concessions on us, why the hell are we taking them voluntarily? To a level that will leave our guys not only below the Mainline freighter ops of the world, but the Cargojets of the world too. No pay guarantees, 19 days a month, and 10% less... but you get a coffeemaker...

[altiplano]

I love it when guys of this vintage try and justify their self-interest.

"But look what we did for you in TA2017!!" - Sorry, we are still on a b-scale pension.

"But look we're getting you cargo jobs!!" - Flying you would never in a million years be willing to do, at a rate you would never accept.

The one great thing about the b-scale pension is that when I'm gone, I'm gone. I will never have to worry about Air Canada's profitability ever again, like these guys do every morning when they wake up to the Bahamian sun rising next to their boat.

I 100% support bringing in freighters if that's what the company wants to do. Night flying, long pairings, rubber dog shit. That's the job, but let's not do it at a discount.

[a220hereicome]

The one great thing about the b-scale pension...”

It’s a different kind of pension. Time will tell whether it’s a good one.

[Transition9er2]

I’ve read a couple times here that CargoJet is the main competition and AC therefore needs to adjust wages accordingly to meet “standards”.

My question is why does AC need to look backwards in order to go forwards? CargoJet, as a company is significantly smaller than AC, if anything CJ should be pushing for AC standards rather than CJ setting the bar AC “should” aspire to.

I know the rebuttal to this is CJ is a cargo only business, you can’t compare the two etc. etc. The problem is AC sees cargo as a money making venture regardless of this vote. They showed their hand by telling the world they very much would like to move forward with this idea. Aircraft are already being reconfigured... why would they do that if the company didn’t plan on moving forward? Is it because they know the pilot group will say yes to whatever contract they put in front of them? Is the company seriously going to walk away from a money making proposition simply because the pilot group turned down the first look at a new contract? If yes to both questions, I would say there’s something more going on behind the curtain. This doesn’t pass the “sniff test”.

Something else that I think is important here, AC management is VERY GOOD at playing the long game with their focus on “future state“ of the company. Pilots (in general) seem to be more focussed on current state and will make contract decisions accordingly. Ie. covid is bad, global pandemic, save jobs at all costs etc. This pandemic will pass and life will return to normal... is it worth selling out the long term contract just for “today”?

my 2 cents is all.

[Johnny767]

Where did all the loud mouth, 250 hour Jazz experts go?

Sorry... Quite a few hours more than that. Came from a couple companies before this but not jazz. Second career. 2 university degrees. When I decided to become a pilot the plan was always keep moving forward. Aka don't purposely vote on a potentially career long pay cut.... However and here is the kicker. Democracy works by respecting all voices. Even were i, or another person is junior how does that mean their voice matters less? Having more time within an organization does not mean you are more capable to voice your opinion. One could argue that having more years left in this company means you should have a greater vote as you have more skin in the game. I personally don't believe that because the fact is that we all get one vote therefore we are all entitled to an opinion.

That explains everything, a degree in Lesbian Dance Studies - that's a joke relax. Joking aside it is the sense of entitlement oozing from certain demographics. You knew full well you would be on the CWIPP pension plan, you knew the payscale, however you brown nose your way through the interview process then do nothing but bitch and moan.

Both the VP of Flt Ops and the MEC Chair have been laid off, neither of which are enjoying having to make these choices.

I know you are all proud of those "Participation" medals, but this is not all about you.

The Corporation is in survival mode, 100 Pilots working for 10% less isn't the end of the world. If 600 layoffs, reduced hour MOA and the Cargo LOU is the worse we see in this mess, we will be extremely lucky.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Where did all the loud mouth, 250 hour Jazz experts go?

Sorry... Quite a few hours more than that. Came from a couple companies before this but not jazz. Second career. 2 university degrees. When I decided to become a pilot the plan was always keep moving forward. Aka don't purposely vote on a potentially career long pay cut.... However and here is the kicker. Democracy works by respecting all voices. Even were i, or another person is junior how does that mean their voice matters less? Having more time within an organization does not mean you are more capable to voice your opinion. One could argue that having more years left in this company means you should have a greater vote as you have more skin in the game. I personally don't believe that because the fact is that we all get one vote therefore we are all entitled to an opinion.

That explains everything, a degree in Lesbian Dance Studies - that's a joke relax. Joking aside it is the sense of entitlement oozing from certain demographics. You knew full well you would be on the CWIPP pension plan, you knew the payscale, however you brown nose your way through the interview process then do nothing but bitch and moan.

Both the VP of Flt Ops and the MEC Chair have been laid off, neither of which are enjoying having to make these choices.

I know you are all proud of those "Participation" medals, but this is not all about you.

The Corporation is in survival mode, 100 Pilots working for 10% less isn't the end of the world. If 600 layoffs, reduced hour MOA and the Cargo LOU is the worse we see in this mess, we will be extremely lucky.

I think the issue here “Johnny”, is what if this ISN’T the worst we see? Where does it end? The company is in full take take take mode, and the union gives away the farm without a second thought. Why not a SnapBack clause? Why not get some assurances from the company if they want something that once they’re profitable again, things will return to the way they were before? I don’t think any of us have a problem helping ensure we all have a secure future here, but stop letting the company capitalize on this situation. Stop giving up PERMANENT gains that were made in contracts past, for a temporary pat on the back from the company. That’s all we ask of our union.

Now, before you fly off the handle and lump me into that category of “entitlement”, if you think I’m missing something, please educate me. You have yet to make a valid point that would convince me, or anyone else I know otherwise. I’ve read the MOU, I attended the webinar, I’ve talked to my coworkers and spoken with my LEC reps, and not a single shred of anything anyone has said has been able to convince me this is a good idea. I might think otherwise if there was some kind of SnapBack clause, but even then the whole thing still reeks of dog sh!t.

The company is laughing all the way to the bank on this one. Who cares if they won’t sit down at the bargaining table again? It’s shitty flying anyways, let someone else “capture” it. Especially if they’ve got to sell themselves out to do so like we’ve been asked to do.

[Tdicommuter]

Where did all the loud mouth, 250 hour Jazz experts go?

Sorry... Quite a few hours more than that. Came from a couple companies before this but not jazz. Second career. 2 university degrees. When I decided to become a pilot the plan was always keep moving forward. Aka don't purposely vote on a potentially career long pay cut.... However and here is the kicker. Democracy works by respecting all voices. Even were i, or another person is junior how does that mean their voice matters less? Having more time within an organization does not mean you are more capable to voice your opinion. One could argue that having more years left in this company means you should have a greater vote as you have more skin in the game. I personally don't believe that because the fact is that we all get one vote therefore we are all entitled to an opinion.

That explains everything, a degree in Lesbian Dance Studies - that's a joke relax. Joking aside it is the sense of entitlement oozing from certain demographics. You knew full well you would be on the CWIPP pension plan, you knew the payscale, however you brown nose your way through the interview process then do nothing but bitch and moan.

Both the VP of Flt Ops and the MEC Chair have been laid off, neither of which are enjoying having to make these choices.

I know you are all proud of those "Participation" medals, but this is not all about you.

The Corporation is in survival mode, 100 Pilots working for 10% less isn't the end of the world. If 600 layoffs, reduced hour MOA and the Cargo LOU is the worse we see in this mess, we will be extremely lucky.

Epic burn! Let me also start with a joke.

I actually am a psyche grad, I have a minor in a$$hole detection. See the interesting thing about the a$$hole, it is the only part of the body that is not self aware. A thumb knows it's a thumb and wants to do thumb related things. An a$$hole does not know it's an a$$hole and assumes it is the brains of the operation. An a$$hole's only job though is to fill with $h1T and then dump everywhere. See the problem with a$$holes is they don't know they are a$$holes which is why they are dangerous. Left to their own devices they will ruin everything by filling it up with visceral crap. I bring this up because you johnny767 are an @$$hole. You post like an @sshole, treat opposite opinions like an a$$hole, and I suspect your make a duck faced look while you read in bewilderment like an @sshole. Just joking... Relax.

I'll be brief.

Making fun of participation medals is sad because you assume your time on property is worth something. Are you suggesting that simple existence on property is worth a special medal? Like an existence medal? Or trophy? You are not special for not being dead, or retired. Guess what we are the same now. We both have participation medals.... They are called union dues.

No one is complaining about CWIPP, or flat pay, or anything else. Won't complain about any of the current working conditions I accepted, I will protest the vote to make MY job worse though. What is proposed is not what I happily accepted, it is worse. If an expired MOA for cargo is setting the tone for our cargo... Imagine what agreeing to more days worked in a month will do.

My question to you is... Why are you being so abusive to people who voice concerns over giving up working conditions? Covid is temporary.... This LOU is permanent.

[Fanblade]

My question to you is... Why are you being so abusive to people who voice concerns over giving up working conditions? Covid is temporary.... This LOU is permanent.

Excellent question. But we need to pull the personalities out, as it distracts from the point. It should probably be expressed this way.

Covid is temporary, the LOU is permanent. Why are we considering a permanent give for a temporary situation?

Johnny. Have an answer?

[Sceptical]

I can't speak for Johnny767 but I can answer the question why a permanent change versus a temporary change. While COVID has created an change in the cargo market such that a dedicated cargo division is viable (unlike 5 years ago), the economics of cargo do not change once COVID is over. In fact, I would argue that the huge demand for cargo might decrease and cargo lift increase making the economics less in the future compared to day - Economics 101 Supply and Demand.

Whether this happens or not, the issue has been and remains having an economically competitive product offering vis-a-vis your main competitor in that space in Canada, namely CargoJet. No business person that wishes to stay in business would ever start up against a competitor with one hand tied behind their back from the outset, i.e. an noncompetitive cost structure.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

I can't speak for Johnny767 but I can answer the question why a permanent change versus a temporary change. While COVID has created an change in the cargo market such that a dedicated cargo division is viable (unlike 5 years ago), the economics of cargo do not change once COVID is over. In fact, I would argue that the huge demand for cargo might decrease and cargo lift increase making the economics less in the future compared to day - Economics 101 Supply and Demand.

Whether this happens or not, the issue has been and remains having an economically competitive product offering vis-a-vis your main competitor in that space in Canada, namely CargoJet. No business person that wishes to stay in business would ever start up against a competitor with one hand tied behind their back from the outset, i.e. an noncompetitive cost structure.

When nothing else changes to the current set of WAWCON and the entire "economically competitive product" relies on nothing more than a 10% savings of Pilot wages, roughly $67/hr as others have explained, then how is this in any way good for that same business person that wishes to stay in business? Much less the employees who's livelihood is tied to that $67 savings and being asked to support such a sector of the industry for which in your own words "would argue that the huge demand for cargo might decrease and cargo lift increase making the economics less in the future compared to today - Economics 101 Supply and Demand."

-Jimmy

[Sceptical]

When nothing else changes to the current set of WAWCON and the entire "economically competitive product" relies on nothing more than a 10% savings of Pilot wages, roughly $67/hr as others have explained, then how is this in any way good for that same business person that wishes to stay in business? Much less the employees who's livelihood is tied to that $67 savings and being asked to support such a sector of the industry for which in your own words "would argue that the huge demand for cargo might decrease and cargo lift increase making the economics less in the future compared to today - Economics 101 Supply and Demand."

-Jimmy

What makes you think that the cost competitive pilot wages is the only element where a cost competitive structure is required for the cargo operation to be viable? How about competitive aircraft leasing rates from lessors, cost competitive costs for cargo agents, ground handlers, freight forwarders, dispatchers, fuel suppliers, airport authorities, air navigation service providers, aircraft parts suppliers, aircraft maintenance providers, etc., etc., etc.

Pilot costs are but one of many cost centres involved in running a (cargo) airline and each and everyone one of them has to be competitive otherwise why even bother starting this line of business if one is going to be noncompetitive from the start? Starting a business or a business line like this is tough enough but even more so in this COVID environment when one is bleeding $ so badly.

[Fanblade]

Sceptical,

Clearly you believe employees should give to support a corporate goal. Where does that end?

Look at some of the consequences. We took cuts to create Rouge to compete with Transat and Westjet. It forced Transat into acquisition territory and Westjet to create Swoop. Currently Onex is trying to move as much to Swoop as they can. How long until we need to give again to compete with Swoop?

It’s a fools game. The company loves it when they can get employees to compete with other employees. It’s commonly called a race to the bottom.

So now we are planning on lowering our wage to put the screws to Cargojet. What will those consequences be? What do you think Cargojet management is about to tell their pilots?

Then we wonder why AC pilots are despised? Top of the profession and lowering the bar. We don’t raise the profession but rather participate in driving it down. Then we ask ourselves why we make so much less than our peers in other countries. Really? We can’t see the problem?

A pilot is a Pilot is a pilot. We should all strive to make exactly the same wage. For the sake of the profession we must stop willfully playing the game the corporation wants by voluntarily lowering the bar.

This point by the way is the primary reason ACPA must go. ALPA would never permit us to continue our current behaviour of diminishing the profession.

[Tdicommuter]

When nothing else changes to the current set of WAWCON and the entire "economically competitive product" relies on nothing more than a 10% savings of Pilot wages, roughly $67/hr as others have explained, then how is this in any way good for that same business person that wishes to stay in business? Much less the employees who's livelihood is tied to that $67 savings and being asked to support such a sector of the industry for which in your own words "would argue that the huge demand for cargo might decrease and cargo lift increase making the economics less in the future compared to today - Economics 101 Supply and Demand."

-Jimmy

What makes you think that the cost competitive pilot wages is the only element where a cost competitive structure is required for the cargo operation to be viable? How about competitive aircraft leasing rates from lessors, cost competitive costs for cargo agents, ground handlers, freight forwarders, dispatchers, fuel suppliers, airport authorities, air navigation service providers, aircraft parts suppliers, aircraft maintenance providers, etc., etc., etc.

Pilot costs are but one of many cost centres involved in running a (cargo) airline and each and everyone one of them has to be competitive otherwise why even bother starting this line of business if one is going to be noncompetitive from the start? Starting a business or a business line like this is tough enough but even more so in this COVID environment when one is bleeding $ so badly.

I think this is how and why we get into trouble. We know enough to care about big picture stuff, but not enough to fully be informed.
Cost is important for sure. But how do you know what we need to do to be competitive? We haven't been shown cost projections, future fuel costs, dollar exchange etc. This is why it is important to stick to what we know quite well and what we do. Let's just be pilots.
I do not want to work more days every month. Period. I am fearful agreeing to more days worked means that will trickle over in the future. Our job is not to find a way to bend what we do to make things work for management, rather it is their job to find ways to work around what we already agreed were acceptable working conditions. As a working group by agreeing to work more days a month do you think in the short term that will alleviate the company as a whole? I personally do not. What I do know for sure though is that if I start working more every month the company will get 626-1044 extra working days out of me over the length of my career.

The pay rate to me is not the sticking point it is the extra days worked. Remember this is going in as a NJA, but only getting 12 days off month. Boom that is a precedent for our whole NJA flying. If it went in as a wide body but has 12 days off that would be one thing but this could potentially affect lots for the future. Saving a few pilot wages now is chump change in the short term, the companies long term gains by having us work more days will compound hugely in their favour.

That is my biggest concern and I have not had a single conversation to alleviate my concerns. I'd like to be wrong. Please someone tell me why I'm wrong with actual facts not beliefs.

[Fanblade]

When nothing else changes to the current set of WAWCON and the entire "economically competitive product" relies on nothing more than a 10% savings of Pilot wages, roughly $67/hr as others have explained, then how is this in any way good for that same business person that wishes to stay in business? Much less the employees who's livelihood is tied to that $67 savings and being asked to support such a sector of the industry for which in your own words "would argue that the huge demand for cargo might decrease and cargo lift increase making the economics less in the future compared to today - Economics 101 Supply and Demand."

-Jimmy

What makes you think that the cost competitive pilot wages is the only element where a cost competitive structure is required for the cargo operation to be viable? How about competitive aircraft leasing rates from lessors, cost competitive costs for cargo agents, ground handlers, freight forwarders, dispatchers, fuel suppliers, airport authorities, air navigation service providers, aircraft parts suppliers, aircraft maintenance providers, etc., etc., etc.

Pilot costs are but one of many cost centres involved in running a (cargo) airline and each and everyone one of them has to be competitive otherwise why even bother starting this line of business if one is going to be noncompetitive from the start? Starting a business or a business line like this is tough enough but even more so in this COVID environment when one is bleeding $ so badly.

I think this is how and why we get into trouble. We know enough to care about big picture stuff, but not enough to fully be informed.
Cost is important for sure. But how do you know what we need to do to be competitive? We haven't been shown cost projections, future fuel costs, dollar exchange etc. This is why it is important to stick to what we know quite well and what we do. Let's just be pilots.
I do not want to work more days every month. Period. I am fearful agreeing to more days worked means that will trickle over in the future. Our job is not to find a way to bend what we do to make things work for management, rather it is their job to find ways to work around what we already agreed were acceptable working conditions. As a working group by agreeing to work more days a month do you think in the short term that will alleviate the company as a whole? I personally do not. What I do know for sure though is that if I start working more every month the company will get 626-1044 extra working days out of me over the length of my career.

The pay rate to me is not the sticking point it is the extra days worked. Remember this is going in as a NJA, but only getting 12 days off month. Boom that is a precedent for our whole NJA flying. If it went in as a wide body but has 12 days off that would be one thing but this could potentially affect lots for the future. Saving a few pilot wages now is chump change in the short term, the companies long term gains by having us work more days will compound hugely in their favour.

That is my biggest concern and I have not had a single conversation to alleviate my concerns. I'd like to be wrong. Please someone tell me why I'm wrong with actual facts not beliefs.

You are wrong!

Any concession has consequences. Not just for us but for the profession as a whole. That is not limited to days off. It includes all aspects of WACON.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

I do not want to work more days every month. Period. I am fearful agreeing to more days worked means that will trickle over in the future. Our job is not to find a way to bend what we do to make things work for management, rather it is their job to find ways to work around what we already agreed were acceptable working conditions. As a working group by agreeing to work more days a month do you think in the short term that will alleviate the company as a whole? I personally do not. What I do know for sure though is that if I start working more every month the company will get 626-1044 extra working days out of me over the length of my career.

So explain where in the MOU there is a difference in the number of working days per month for the proposed Cargo operation vs mainline?

Please?

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

When nothing else changes to the current set of WAWCON and the entire "economically competitive product" relies on nothing more than a 10% savings of Pilot wages, roughly $67/hr as others have explained, then how is this in any way good for that same business person that wishes to stay in business? Much less the employees who's livelihood is tied to that $67 savings and being asked to support such a sector of the industry for which in your own words "would argue that the huge demand for cargo might decrease and cargo lift increase making the economics less in the future compared to today - Economics 101 Supply and Demand."

-Jimmy

What makes you think that the cost competitive pilot wages is the only element where a cost competitive structure is required for the cargo operation to be viable? How about competitive aircraft leasing rates from lessors, cost competitive costs for cargo agents, ground handlers, freight forwarders, dispatchers, fuel suppliers, airport authorities, air navigation service providers, aircraft parts suppliers, aircraft maintenance providers, etc., etc., etc.

Pilot costs are but one of many cost centres involved in running a (cargo) airline and each and everyone one of them has to be competitive otherwise why even bother starting this line of business if one is going to be noncompetitive from the start? Starting a business or a business line like this is tough enough but even more so in this COVID environment when one is bleeding $ so badly.

None of those other things are within the control of the pilot group. Nothing outside of the Pilot group is our area of responsibility. AC can’t get any cheaper leases than aircraft that are already owned, no other employee group is working at reduced wages specific to the Cargo operations. All other fees from Nav Canada etc will be what they will be regardless and again are not our area of responsibility. So add that all together and what we have is that the Pilot group is being asked to make the entire operation economically viable and competitive for, again, ~$67/hour on a top of the pay scale 3 pilot crew. And just so it’s clear, you can have all the cargo available and all the planes available and pay zero dollars for fuel or services, but those airplanes and that cargo doesn’t move unless pilots make it move. We need to remember that.

-Jimmy