ACPA MEC

[Fanblade]

Geez you guys with your street smarts are too clever for stupid me, one of the MEC members...I give up....

you're so paranoid and so wound up in your conspiracy theories that you seem to think everyone who contradicts your neurotic and narcissistic thinking is an MEC member....

you couldn't be farther from the truth...never served in any union position ever at any company

just a member of the "fucking clueless group" who is entertained by you clowns

Exactly. Those that "actually pay attention" and care about the direction we are headed are branded as "conspiracy theorists".

I already explained why I wouldn't enter that toxic cesspool. Read it again if you're still confused.

It doesn't take much to track the history of ACPA's divisive, concessionary path since 2011. Nothing leads to weakness faster than internal division. The latest "drive" to carve off the Cargo division is a prime example, but only a small part of a long list. Why exactly are we the first to step up to "save the Corp"??? We were first in line with our beloved pay LET. Practically tripping over ourselves to give as fast as we could. It was pathetic. The other union groups stood back for a moment and assessed the situation. We could debate endlessly about whether or not we actually "saved jobs", but to think any "give" on the pilots behalf actually sways corps manning decision is naive at best. The latest "thank you" that was exclusively reserved for Management while 600 ACPA members try to make ends meet working as Amazon delivery drivers pounded home exactly what is going on. Who the MEC is trying to impress resonates in ACPA's silence on the matter.



Guys like me won't alter things much, but my dues give me the right to bitch about it.

It's up to you how much you alter. If you do nothing? Nothing will change for certain.

If you truely want change? You must chose action.

Bitching, although soothing for the sole sometimes, and technically a verb? It doesn't qualify as action.

That aside. I agree with your take on ACPA. You should put your bitching into action.

[RippleRock]

Far more powerful and intelligent voices than mine have been silenced. I could name a dozen right now.

What kind of action are you suggesting? A newspaper add, perhaps a TV commercial? ACPA has cut off members from contact through mailing list censure. They don't even have a safe forum to bitch on. Anything that even exists is heavily controlled and policed or monitored by the Corp and ACPA.

Lawsuit threat, or other forms of punishment is everywhere --for everyone-- even from your own union. Remember Strach, remember JMB, how about Tony?? Good luck.

[Fanblade]

Far more powerful and intelligent voices than mine have been silenced. I could name a dozen right now.

What kind of action are you suggesting? A newspaper add, perhaps a TV commercial? ACPA has cut off members from contact through mailing list censure. They don't even have a safe forum to bitch on. Anything that even exists is heavily controlled and policed or monitored by the Corp and ACPA.

Lawsuit threat, or other forms of punishment is everywhere --for everyone-- even from your own union. Remember Strach, remember JMB, how about Tony?? Good luck.

I agree change won't happen by individual efforts from the inside. Only a coordinated team effort forcing its way in from the outside has a chance

Start voting with purpose.

[bcflyer]

nice you label ur fellow brethren and majority at that, as fucking clueless. must be a treat to fly with. what percentage of a flight do you bitch about acpa, 100%, 90, 80% ?

Actually my F/O’s say they enjoy flying with me. Maybe they are lying but the seem to be happy to see me.
As for bitching about ACPA, as a professional I don’t allow my thoughts on ACPA to disrupt what happens in the flight deck on my flights. If someone asks my opinion I’ll share it over dinner when the flying is finished.
I think you overestimate the number of people that think our contract is a good one or that ACPA is doing a good job. Votes passing by 10% hardly indicates that the membership is happy. The current MEC operates using threats of worse things to come and a lot of people vote out of fear.

BTW your username says everything I need to know about where your priorities lie.

[Fanblade]

.

[redbusdriver]

nice you label ur fellow brethren and majority at that, as fucking clueless. must be a treat to fly with. what percentage of a flight do you bitch about acpa, 100%, 90, 80% ?

Actually my F/O’s say they enjoy flying with me. Maybe they are lying but the seem to be happy to see me.
As for bitching about ACPA, as a professional I don’t allow my thoughts on ACPA to disrupt what happens in the flight deck on my flights. If someone asks my opinion I’ll share it over dinner when the flying is finished.
I think you overestimate the number of people that think our contract is a good one or that ACPA is doing a good job. Votes passing by 10% hardly indicates that the membership is happy. The current MEC operates using threats of worse things to come and a lot of people vote out of fear.

BTW your username says everything I need to know about where your priorities lie.

fair enough! i like a discussion! just know the vocal minority frequent this forum. as a junior, i am happy with our representation, and am trying to add that voice here. regardless of 10% or 1%, the majority still side with current acpa representation, and have done so for many years.

[RippleRock]

nice you label ur fellow brethren and majority at that, as fucking clueless. must be a treat to fly with. what percentage of a flight do you bitch about acpa, 100%, 90, 80% ?

Actually my F/O’s say they enjoy flying with me. Maybe they are lying but the seem to be happy to see me.
As for bitching about ACPA, as a professional I don’t allow my thoughts on ACPA to disrupt what happens in the flight deck on my flights. If someone asks my opinion I’ll share it over dinner when the flying is finished.
I think you overestimate the number of people that think our contract is a good one or that ACPA is doing a good job. Votes passing by 10% hardly indicates that the membership is happy. The current MEC operates using threats of worse things to come and a lot of people vote out of fear.

BTW your username says everything I need to know about where your priorities lie.

fair enough! i like a discussion! just know the vocal minority frequent this forum. as a junior, i am happy with our representation, and am trying to add that voice here. regardless of 10% or 1%, the majority still side with current acpa representation, and have done so for many years.

Also fair enough. Opinions are a right.

Since you are engaging in discussion here and like it, can you outline a few places over the last decade where ACPA has made any solid gains for the pilot group? One where the "backroom horse trading" has gone our way?

Can you name a few, or even one single gain that was not at the expense of other Members, cost us more than it should have, or didn't compromise unity in some way? If you can, you might just have a convert.

[Mrbobmarly111]

I just wanted to add my vote for no union is perfect. But when it comes to Canadian unions i really like ACPA and what they have done to keep! Air Canada the top Canadian passanger airline to work for. For example there is no B scale pay at Air Canada. Once upgraded you make twice what a Jazz/Encore cpt makes.. but lets point out what Alpa has done. Constantly introducing B scale pay at companies. At Westjet they dropped the ball on so many levels.

AC is a great place to work. Pay is great for Canada, vacation time is great, options for career progression are great. Honestly you need to simmer down. If ALPA was at AC we would all be wearing pink by now. And the 10% loss on cargo pay... sure that sucks but you still make nearly $250 000 plus plus first year on the 767. Ill tell you what if you hate ACPA so much dont apply to AC because they will be around for years to come. Go to Westjet and take 15 to 20 years to upgrade. And when you do get Furloughed there enjoy getting called back to your similar "fleet" and wear pink. Good thing they have ALPA there to stop that... oh wait nvm people who wore blue have been recalled to pink on the new pay scale.... but dont worry swoop will never fly out of YYZ because they got ALPA. Mighty ALPA will stop that forsure.... oh shoot i spoke to fast that has already happened as well.

[RippleRock]

I just wanted to add my vote for no union is perfect. But when it comes to Canadian unions i really like ACPA and what they have done to keep! Air Canada the top Canadian passanger airline to work for. For example there is no B scale pay at Air Canada. Once upgraded you make twice what a Jazz/Encore cpt makes.. but lets point out what Alpa has done. Constantly introducing B scale pay at companies. At Westjet they dropped the ball on so many levels.

AC is a great place to work. Pay is great for Canada, vacation time is great, options for career progression are great. Honestly you need to simmer down. If ALPA was at AC we would all be wearing pink by now. And the 10% loss on cargo pay... sure that sucks but you still make nearly $250 000 plus plus first year on the 767. Ill tell you what if you hate ACPA so much dont apply to AC because they will be around for years to come. Go to Westjet and take 15 to 20 years to upgrade. And when you do get Furloughed there enjoy getting called back to your similar "fleet" and wear pink. Good thing they have ALPA there to stop that... oh wait nvm people who wore blue have been recalled to pink on the new pay scale.... but dont worry swoop will never fly out of YYZ because they got ALPA. Mighty ALPA will stop that forsure.... oh shoot i spoke to fast that has already happened as well.

Oh boy we are so screwed.

I'm just going to take your directions and "simmer down". Very sage advice.

[GTFA]

I just wanted to add my vote for no union is perfect. But when it comes to Canadian unions i really like ACPA and what they have done to keep! Air Canada the top Canadian passanger airline to work for. For example there is no B scale pay at Air Canada. Once upgraded you make twice what a Jazz/Encore cpt makes.. but lets point out what Alpa has done. Constantly introducing B scale pay at companies. At Westjet they dropped the ball on so many levels.

AC is a great place to work. Pay is great for Canada, vacation time is great, options for career progression are great. Honestly you need to simmer down. If ALPA was at AC we would all be wearing pink by now. And the 10% loss on cargo pay... sure that sucks but you still make nearly $250 000 plus plus first year on the 767. Ill tell you what if you hate ACPA so much dont apply to AC because they will be around for years to come. Go to Westjet and take 15 to 20 years to upgrade. And when you do get Furloughed there enjoy getting called back to your similar "fleet" and wear pink. Good thing they have ALPA there to stop that... oh wait nvm people who wore blue have been recalled to pink on the new pay scale.... but dont worry swoop will never fly out of YYZ because they got ALPA. Mighty ALPA will stop that forsure.... oh shoot i spoke to fast that has already happened as well.

You are wrong about ALPA. At ALPA, each property or airline group negotiates it's own contract. ALPA does not dictate to the MECs. ACPA was only ever meant to represent one pilot group and one pilot group only. ALPA is an association of different but like minded pilot groups who support and defend each other within a constitution that gives each MEC the authority (within the bargaining unit) the ability to navigate their own path.

ALPA Canada would have been and still could be so much better for all of us if it included the pilots of AC.

[redbusdriver]

Actually my F/O’s say they enjoy flying with me. Maybe they are lying but the seem to be happy to see me.
As for bitching about ACPA, as a professional I don’t allow my thoughts on ACPA to disrupt what happens in the flight deck on my flights. If someone asks my opinion I’ll share it over dinner when the flying is finished.
I think you overestimate the number of people that think our contract is a good one or that ACPA is doing a good job. Votes passing by 10% hardly indicates that the membership is happy. The current MEC operates using threats of worse things to come and a lot of people vote out of fear.

BTW your username says everything I need to know about where your priorities lie.

fair enough! i like a discussion! just know the vocal minority frequent this forum. as a junior, i am happy with our representation, and am trying to add that voice here. regardless of 10% or 1%, the majority still side with current acpa representation, and have done so for many years.

Also fair enough. Opinions are a right.

Since you are engaging in discussion here and like it, can you outline a few places over the last decade where ACPA has made any solid gains for the pilot group? One where the "backroom horse trading" has gone our way?

Can you name a few, or even one single gain that was not at the expense of other Members, cost us more than it should have, or didn't compromise unity in some way? If you can, you might just have a convert.

sure, job protection and creation. we maynot be paid like usa, but we're top in canada. there's a reason everyone wants to come work here, they know, we're the best, and acpa has had a hand in creating that.

I just wanted to add my vote for no union is perfect. But when it comes to Canadian unions i really like ACPA and what they have done to keep! Air Canada the top Canadian passanger airline to work for. For example there is no B scale pay at Air Canada. Once upgraded you make twice what a Jazz/Encore cpt makes.. but lets point out what Alpa has done. Constantly introducing B scale pay at companies. At Westjet they dropped the ball on so many levels.

AC is a great place to work. Pay is great for Canada, vacation time is great, options for career progression are great. Honestly you need to simmer down. If ALPA was at AC we would all be wearing pink by now. And the 10% loss on cargo pay... sure that sucks but you still make nearly $250 000 plus plus first year on the 767. Ill tell you what if you hate ACPA so much dont apply to AC because they will be around for years to come. Go to Westjet and take 15 to 20 years to upgrade. And when you do get Furloughed there enjoy getting called back to your similar "fleet" and wear pink. Good thing they have ALPA there to stop that... oh wait nvm people who wore blue have been recalled to pink on the new pay scale.... but dont worry swoop will never fly out of YYZ because they got ALPA. Mighty ALPA will stop that forsure.... oh shoot i spoke to fast that has already happened as well.

You are wrong about ALPA. At ALPA, each property or airline group negotiates it's own contract. ALPA does not dictate to the MECs. ACPA was only ever meant to represent one pilot group and one pilot group only. ALPA is an association of different but like minded pilot groups who support and defend each other within a constitution that gives each MEC the authority (within the bargaining unit) the ability to navigate their own path.

ALPA Canada would have been and still could be so much better for all of us if it included the pilots of AC.

and if we went to alpa, what would change for the better? you claim acpa mec is corrupt, but with that logic, so would an alpa mec.

[alkaseltzer]

I just wanted to add my vote for no union is perfect. But when it comes to Canadian unions i really like ACPA and what they have done to keep! Air Canada the top Canadian passanger airline to work for. For example there is no B scale pay at Air Canada. Once upgraded you make twice what a Jazz/Encore cpt makes.. but lets point out what Alpa has done. Constantly introducing B scale pay at companies. At Westjet they dropped the ball on so many levels.

AC is a great place to work. Pay is great for Canada, vacation time is great, options for career progression are great. Honestly you need to simmer down. If ALPA was at AC we would all be wearing pink by now. And the 10% loss on cargo pay... sure that sucks but you still make nearly $250 000 plus plus first year on the 767. Ill tell you what if you hate ACPA so much dont apply to AC because they will be around for years to come. Go to Westjet and take 15 to 20 years to upgrade. And when you do get Furloughed there enjoy getting called back to your similar "fleet" and wear pink. Good thing they have ALPA there to stop that... oh wait nvm people who wore blue have been recalled to pink on the new pay scale.... but dont worry swoop will never fly out of YYZ because they got ALPA. Mighty ALPA will stop that forsure.... oh shoot i spoke to fast that has already happened as well.

+100

[altiplano]

The Constitution would be fixed under ALPA for one.

AC Pilots would have the largest say in Canada regarding Government governmental lobbying efforts for two.

We would have access to a larger pool of resources and supports for three.

It can go on and on... but going back to the first one... We were recommended by outside conservative governance experts 2 paths:

-properly fixing ACPA governance and constitution,
-joining a larger organization with its shit together.

We did neither. And what we have does not work.

ACPA has no governance oversight, no sober second thoughts, and power and information is completely centralized among a few.

We do surveys where the membership overwhelmingly said they want to hear from ALPA, but that guy quietly closed down.

We do surveys that members overwhelmingly said they didn't want the contract opened up in the recent reopener under the guidelines of the Framework MOA, and what do we get? Concessionary permanent MOAs, followed by entire rewrites in our contract including sections on scope, scheduling, reserve, and more.

We have an MEC Chair that ran on transparency and recorded votes that flip flopped.

I think it's funny that the governance committee was all fired and replaced with a new chair that lost the last time he stood for election among the membership, and members that are all MEC members.

We still have group of 27 members chairing important committees FFS.

It's incestuous.

Take a look at the transparency and information and preparation of the membership by the Delta and United MECs. There are Youtubes... watch them, and then come tell me that isn't what you'd like from your association.

If you're still looking in and comparing your wage to a regional or package tour provider or only recently unionized #2 LCC airline with a FIRST contract and thinking you're great, then you're actually delusional. Look instead at your contract 20 years ago. Then wonder how it is we are here today so much worse off and still going backwards.

[Fanblade]

In Canada we have pattern bargaining upside down

Instead of one upping each other. We one down each other. After 15 years of doing this the damage is adding up.

ACPA has been leading the charge in lowering the bar. If rising tides floats all boats, then Air Canada pilots under ACPA, are a sump pump.

Why the EMJ for less? We will do it for less to capture the airplane. Then spend bargaining capital to improve it.

Oh. How did that work out? We improved it and….um…..they got rid of it

Why the low wage on the 767 at Rouge? Company has trouble competing with Transat. Capture the work. Improve it later.

Capture the work? Don’t we fly the 767 already? Nope Air Canada has never flown Leisure 767’s

But don’t we have a pay scale for the 767? Nope. No leisure 767 in the contract.

Capture the work? Again? But it didn’t work last time I thought? It worked great! We almost achieved formula pay.

But the aircraft is gone now? It worked great. Next question.

So we will work for less so AC can drive Transat down? Yup! Competition and all.

Are you concerned that is also driving down the profession? We look after AC pilots only. Not our problem

So the same reason for the lower 320 wage at Rouge? Westjet and Sunwing are a problem. We will do that flying for less as well.

Might it make them respond with Swoop? Nah and even if that happens the pilots won’t see the cause and effect.

Cargo? Sure thing. 10% less no problem.

Why the need for a cut in pay? Capture the work. Fix it later.

Didn’t we learn a lesson from capturing the work and fix it later with the EMJ? I don’t follow the question. It worked great.

What if Cargojet suddenly wants cuts from their pilots as a result? We don’t represent them. Who cares.

Don’t we already have a 767 payscale. Not a specific Cargo 767 payscale.

How many 767 pay scales do we need? Glossed over eyes.

Shouldn’t we try to catch up with inflation since bankruptcy? What you talking about? That’s just foolish talk.

But the US carriers have managed to do it. Foolish to compare.

Why is that foolish? Because they fly different 767’s with different scales

Why did you cut FO wages? So CA can have a raise! Actually double down on the RP’s!

Get rid of DB pensions for newbies? Damn right. We don’t negotiate for the unborn.

DC pension to replace it? Do we care? Worry about it later.

Double flat pay? Sure no problem.

Aren’t you worried new hires will get pissed and revolt? Nah just keep telling them they made the NHL. Air Canada is the best.

Yeah AC is a great job. My concern isn’t them, it’s the representation. ACPA is the best. And if we are not it’s not our fault.

Yeah but doesn’t the best also hire the best to represent them? Hey look box seats to the game.

Um what if they start paying attention to the likes of United or Delta South of the boarder? Just tell em what the company tells us.

What do they tell us? We can’t compare to them.

Why not aren’t they pilots too? Yeah………..that’s just dumb…..next question.

But don’t AC executives compare themselves to United and Delta for wage comparisons? Sorry gotta go. Game starting

[alkaseltzer]

The Constitution would be fixed under ALPA for one.

AC Pilots would have the largest say in Canada regarding Government governmental lobbying efforts for two.

We would have access to a larger pool of resources and supports for three.

It can go on and on... but going back to the first one... We were recommended by outside conservative governance experts 2 paths:

-properly fixing ACPA governance and constitution,
-joining a larger organization with its shit together.

We did neither. And what we have does not work.

ACPA has no governance oversight, no sober second thoughts, and power and information is completely centralized among a few.

We do surveys where the membership overwhelmingly said they want to hear from ALPA, but that guy quietly closed down.

We do surveys that members overwhelmingly said they didn't want the contract opened up in the recent reopener under the guidelines of the Framework MOA, and what do we get? Concessionary permanent MOAs, followed by entire rewrites in our contract including sections on scope, scheduling, reserve, and more.

We have an MEC Chair that ran on transparency and recorded votes that flip flopped.

I think it's funny that the governance committee was all fired and replaced with a new chair that lost the last time he stood for election among the membership, and members that are all MEC members.

We still have group of 27 members chairing important committees FFS.

It's incestuous.

Take a look at the transparency and information and preparation of the membership by the Delta and United MECs. There are Youtubes... watch them, and then come tell me that isn't what you'd like from your association.

If you're still looking in and comparing your wage to a regional or package tour provider or only recently unionized #2 LCC airline with a FIRST contract and thinking you're great, then you're actually delusional. Look instead at your contract 20 years ago. Then wonder how it is we are here today so much worse off and still going backwards.

So why does Project Reroute tout a great relationship with the management and ACPA...what is the point of it? Is it to ACPA-wash the furloughs? Why should furloughs even pay attention to that webinar and trust a word that is being said?

[Fanblade]

So why does Project Reroute tout a great relationship with the management and ACPA...what is the point of it? Is it to ACPA-wash the furloughs? Why should furloughs even pay attention to that webinar and trust a word that is being said?

Air Canada management and ACPA have very good reason to be concerned about how pissed the 600 furloughed are.

The fact that the furloughs had to organize themselves to be heard says it all.

Kicked out of CEWS when Jazz and Transat pilots were not. No correspondence.

There is a tempest brewing. It has managements attention

[altiplano]

The Constitution would be fixed under ALPA for one.

AC Pilots would have the largest say in Canada regarding Government governmental lobbying efforts for two.

We would have access to a larger pool of resources and supports for three.

It can go on and on... but going back to the first one... We were recommended by outside conservative governance experts 2 paths:

-properly fixing ACPA governance and constitution,
-joining a larger organization with its shit together.

We did neither. And what we have does not work.

ACPA has no governance oversight, no sober second thoughts, and power and information is completely centralized among a few.

We do surveys where the membership overwhelmingly said they want to hear from ALPA, but that guy quietly closed down.

We do surveys that members overwhelmingly said they didn't want the contract opened up in the recent reopener under the guidelines of the Framework MOA, and what do we get? Concessionary permanent MOAs, followed by entire rewrites in our contract including sections on scope, scheduling, reserve, and more.

We have an MEC Chair that ran on transparency and recorded votes that flip flopped.

I think it's funny that the governance committee was all fired and replaced with a new chair that lost the last time he stood for election among the membership, and members that are all MEC members.

We still have group of 27 members chairing important committees FFS.

It's incestuous.

Take a look at the transparency and information and preparation of the membership by the Delta and United MECs. There are Youtubes... watch them, and then come tell me that isn't what you'd like from your association.

If you're still looking in and comparing your wage to a regional or package tour provider or only recently unionized #2 LCC airline with a FIRST contract and thinking you're great, then you're actually delusional. Look instead at your contract 20 years ago. Then wonder how it is we are here today so much worse off and still going backwards.

So why does Project Reroute tout a great relationship with the management and ACPA...what is the point of it? Is it to ACPA-wash the furloughs? Why should furloughs even pay attention to that webinar and trust a word that is being said?

Non-response, just change the subject because it's all true.

I just can't understand why some of you guys are so happy to settle and tow the company line while we fall further and further behind every year.

As Fanblade pointed out, we horse trade and then the company sells the horse we got every time.

Capture EMJ with low rates, trade other wages to raise the EMJ rates and company gets rid of the EMJs.

Capture 319/767 leisure flying with low rates and working conditions, spend 10 years of bargaining capital improving them and company cans the 767s and cuts 319/320/321 LCC flying drastically. Too expensive now.

Capture 767 cargo flying with low rates and substandard guarantee despite having 2x 767 wawcon already in our contract. Just watch what happens when these guys are sitting in hotels collecting the lowest guarantee and ACPA devices they have to do something by horse trading away a chunk of another part of our contract.

Remember too... the fear rumours around the F767 vote?

"If we don't do it the work will go to Transat or worse, JAZZ!"
"If we don't do it the airplanes will be sold to Cargojet and they'll get the jobs."
"If we don't do it there might be another upstart with our old airplanes that will compete with us."
"If we don't take a pay cut the company will never do cargo again."

The crazy thing with this "capture the flying" mentality is that it's already ours. Article 1 full stop.

The company makes its own business cases on if they want this type or that type, this flying out that flying, it's all done and then they come to us for the cherry on top.

Look how fast the cargo conversions were announced after our MOA vote... vote closed Friday, conversion contacts announced Monday. Remember it was only so they could "explore the opportunity" and the "10% wage concessions" was their "line in the sand" to "make the operation more profitable."

No shit 10% off of our wage will make it more profitable. 10% off pilot wages doesn't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to operating an airline though, particularly in what is currently and forecast to be the most profitable sector in it. ie. Logistics and cargo are where smart money is going right now.

Did the company go to the IAMAW guys for discounts to bring in the extra cargo ground handlers that will be needed? Or the extra engineers that will be needed? Did they go to the dispatchers? The managers? Just us because "Pilots always vote yes." We're short sighted and playing tic-tac-toe.

[PostmasterGeneral]

The whole "capture the flying" bullshit they tried to sell us on is what broke the camel's back for me. The flying was already ours. Not faulting the company for trying, that's their M.O. to get more for less. What I was angry with, however, was our own goddamn union singing the same song. Make no mistake, ACPA works for the company, NOT for the pilot group.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

"If we don't do it the airplanes will be sold to Cargojet and they'll get the jobs."

LOL Whoever's peddling that BS obviously hasn't seen CargoJet's threats to their pilot group.

[BTD]

They really lost me during the 2017 reopener.

Go to the ACPA website and reread MEC newsletter 2017 #13 and #14. The 180 degree about face that was done between those two newsletters is staggering. And highlighted the dishonesty.