No pilot recalls until Spring 2023???

[SMD]

Good to hear, as a tax payer I would like it back.

[the-minister31]

Something doesn’t add up with your math. How much overtime are you doing?

By the way very few professionals have not kept up with inflation over the last two decades. We are way way behind. I have first hand knowledge of what doctors get paid. They have kept up with inflation.

I know a 28 year old making over 400K. The hours are killing her though.

Your right, I’m using precovid numbers. Right now I’m only making 13800 dollars a month sitting on my ass. Do you refute the claim that doctors make more in the states?

You are an absolute piece of garbage, a beneficiary of a government handout loan. I can’t imagine your furloughed pilots are very pleased to hear you brag about your windfall gain.

I agree it does not look good to brag about that, but the only government help I know of that AC uses to pay it's pilots is CEWS. Which is available to any other company (and employee) in Canada. Can someone confirm that?

[altiplano]

Good to hear, as a tax payer I would like it back.

"as a tax payer"

Right...

You'd like what back?

Nothing to get back... as I pointed out, the loan has not been drawn on. In fact currently Canada is ahead in the transaction as the shares they received have appreciated.

[Sharklasers]

Something doesn’t add up with your math. How much overtime are you doing?

By the way very few professionals have not kept up with inflation over the last two decades. We are way way behind. I have first hand knowledge of what doctors get paid. They have kept up with inflation.

I know a 28 year old making over 400K. The hours are killing her though.

Your right, I’m using precovid numbers. Right now I’m only making 13800 dollars a month sitting on my ass. Do you refute the claim that doctors make more in the states?

You are an absolute piece of garbage, a beneficiary of a government handout loan. I can’t imagine your furloughed pilots are very pleased to hear you brag about your windfall gain.

I’d like to thank SMD for helping prove my original point, the low achievers hate seeing anyone that have more than them, it enrages them. For a large percentage of Canadians when they see someone getting ahead they see it as their duty to try and drag them back into the bucket. Instead of trying to improve his own lot in life our friend SMD has spent his time trying to find a way to make everyone’s life worse to match his. SMD would have rather had many more pilot laid off even though it made no material difference to him but it would have made him feel better to see people struggle.

My pay doesn’t reflect a ‘windfall gain’ it’s a significant paycut compared to precovid on our LOU reduced block. I’m not going to give it back, I would love to fly more but the fact remains that the flying is still reduced in this country.

[altiplano]

It feels like it's getting busier... More flights... full flights... airports seem busier... no doubt we still aren't "there" but we're headed there. We are short. Reserves are fully utilized. The draft hogs are at the trough... hard to believe it if we don't see some recalls in the bid this week... then again we'll probably see an MOA for extension/addition of some sort of concession first.

Remember that the corporation will hold their hole cards close and represent a crap hand for as long as they can. Accounting, shifting of assets, changing timelines for debt... they have enormous flexibility in how they position debts and profits. They will use it to get us to splash the pot, put more on the table... 2023 is a reopener remember, the last reopener before full negots in 2024.

Remember 2014? "Do you think you'll do better in 2016" was the line... how'd that turn out. As soon as we signed we went to 6 years of record profit and watched every other Legacy pilot group leave us in the dust while we made continued concessions on a subinflationary contract based on an already cut level rate from 10 years earlier that we have only just caught up to...

Ten years - Never again. 4 years with immediate uplift to '02 rates corrected for COL.

[newlygrounded]

Who jumps into a field without looking ahead or at least at the current state of the industry they want to get into?

So I looked ahead in 2014 when I "jumped into this field". Are you telling me that the last 18 months was predictable? How about 9/11? How many pilots trained and pursued this career post 9/11, SARS-1??? the number is not zero. Again more fallacious thinking to think that we can ever look ahead of the present and fortune tell what will happen.

You might just be kicking yourself in a year or two or you may not be.. Fortune telling as you're doing isn't productive.

Don’t worry about this guy, he’s a never was, a downer. There were 28 year olds at AC precovid making 200k+ as narrowbody captains who are currently sitting on reinstatement rights to get back into it as soon as it turns around. Sure you can make more as an American pilot but in Canukistan that’s still a pretty good payday. And this wet blanket flightschool drop out has the balls to come here and lecture us about how terrible our job is? He thinks he’s going to make more money driving a forklift? Good luck.
My job is great, there are very few jobs in this country that will pay an early 30 year old 200k plus. Buck up newlygrounded, it’s going to be a tough life for a whiner like you.
For the rest of us it sounds like some good news coming down the pipe on Friday, we will be off to the races before you know it.

I'm doing quite well in my current career, it's part of why I'm hesitant to be a pilot. If you want to brag how great the industry is, lets ask some people who did pilot in waiting for a year then got laid off when covid hit. For every guy making 200k there are at least 40 or 50 making $30k or less.

[altiplano]

If you want to brag how great the industry is, lets ask some people who did pilot in waiting for a year then got laid off when covid hit. For every guy making 200k there are at least 40 or 50 making $30k or less.

Been there, done that 20 years ago...

I would posit that most in this position have spent their years cleaning the shitter with empty promises and hussling to keep their heads above water.

It can be a long hard road for some (most), some lose the road all together... whereas straight into the fast lane for a few... success not guaranteed in anything worth achieving.

You should totally stay in the current career you're "doing quite well at."

[Curiousflyer]

I'm doing quite well in my current career, it's part of why I'm hesitant to be a pilot.

This industry isn’t worth getting into any later than your early twenties. All your income hopes depend on “making up for it” later in your career. Go into education or healthcare, heck x ray and ultrasound techs will make more than you the first 15 years of your career, possibly longer if you don’t get lucky and hired at an airline.

[QKZXKV]

Who jumps into a field without looking ahead or at least at the current state of the industry they want to get into?

So I looked ahead in 2014 when I "jumped into this field". Are you telling me that the last 18 months was predictable? How about 9/11? How many pilots trained and pursued this career post 9/11, SARS-1??? the number is not zero. Again more fallacious thinking to think that we can ever look ahead of the present and fortune tell what will happen.

You might just be kicking yourself in a year or two or you may not be.. Fortune telling as you're doing isn't productive.

Don’t worry about this guy, he’s a never was, a downer. There were 28 year olds at AC precovid making 200k+ as narrowbody captains who are currently sitting on reinstatement rights to get back into it as soon as it turns around. Sure you can make more as an American pilot but in Canukistan that’s still a pretty good payday. And this wet blanket flightschool drop out has the balls to come here and lecture us about how terrible our job is? He thinks he’s going to make more money driving a forklift? Good luck.
My job is great, there are very few jobs in this country that will pay an early 30 year old 200k plus. Buck up newlygrounded, it’s going to be a tough life for a whiner like you.
For the rest of us it sounds like some good news coming down the pipe on Friday, we will be off to the races before you know it.

Well said...

The parts that bother me are the ones about "making more in a current job"... ok then the industry's initial short comings/risk is a you problem for "newlygrounded". Can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen but don't criticize it for the rest of us or make up some nonsensical "thanks ACPA" for his failure in getting into the industry.

In my experience over the years the one who bash the working conditions/lifestyle are the ones who were destined to not make it past their PPL or complete their CPL training. This much is evident here.

[Fanblade]

So I looked ahead in 2014 when I "jumped into this field". Are you telling me that the last 18 months was predictable? How about 9/11? How many pilots trained and pursued this career post 9/11, SARS-1??? the number is not zero. Again more fallacious thinking to think that we can ever look ahead of the present and fortune tell what will happen.

You might just be kicking yourself in a year or two or you may not be.. Fortune telling as you're doing isn't productive.

Don’t worry about this guy, he’s a never was, a downer. There were 28 year olds at AC precovid making 200k+ as narrowbody captains who are currently sitting on reinstatement rights to get back into it as soon as it turns around. Sure you can make more as an American pilot but in Canukistan that’s still a pretty good payday. And this wet blanket flightschool drop out has the balls to come here and lecture us about how terrible our job is? He thinks he’s going to make more money driving a forklift? Good luck.
My job is great, there are very few jobs in this country that will pay an early 30 year old 200k plus. Buck up newlygrounded, it’s going to be a tough life for a whiner like you.
For the rest of us it sounds like some good news coming down the pipe on Friday, we will be off to the races before you know it.

Well said...

The parts that bother me are the ones about "making more in a current job"... ok then the industry's initial short comings/risk is a you problem for "newlygrounded". Can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen but don't criticize it for the rest of us or make up some nonsensical "thanks ACPA" for his failure in getting into the industry.

In my experience over the years the one who bash the working conditions/lifestyle are the ones who were destined to not make it past their PPL or complete their CPL training. This much is evident here.

Neither of you read the latest P4C newsletter did you?

Another chart and it’s sobering. Actually it made me angry. Maybe go find it before you keep posting

[Sharklasers]

Don’t worry about this guy, he’s a never was, a downer. There were 28 year olds at AC precovid making 200k+ as narrowbody captains who are currently sitting on reinstatement rights to get back into it as soon as it turns around. Sure you can make more as an American pilot but in Canukistan that’s still a pretty good payday. And this wet blanket flightschool drop out has the balls to come here and lecture us about how terrible our job is? He thinks he’s going to make more money driving a forklift? Good luck.
My job is great, there are very few jobs in this country that will pay an early 30 year old 200k plus. Buck up newlygrounded, it’s going to be a tough life for a whiner like you.
For the rest of us it sounds like some good news coming down the pipe on Friday, we will be off to the races before you know it.

Well said...

The parts that bother me are the ones about "making more in a current job"... ok then the industry's initial short comings/risk is a you problem for "newlygrounded". Can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen but don't criticize it for the rest of us or make up some nonsensical "thanks ACPA" for his failure in getting into the industry.

In my experience over the years the one who bash the working conditions/lifestyle are the ones who were destined to not make it past their PPL or complete their CPL training. This much is evident here.

Neither of you read the latest P4C newsletter did you?

Another chart and it’s sobering. Actually it made me angry. Maybe go find it before you keep posting

I don’t know what you want from us? Of course I want more money, I never said I didn’t.
I’m doing all I can to help change that, which isn’t much at the moment. In 2023 we will advocate for more money. I said I would walk the line if it came to that. I said I will vote for people who seem like they can realistically make it happen. Unfortunately I am late to the party here, I wasn’t around to help prevent TA2 and FOS from happening. I have to deal with the pieces you guys left us. But I’m not going to pretend to hate my job or the pitiful lifestyle it provides me.

You said earlier you did this out of passion, well if the passion is gone and you don’t think the renumeration is there anymore maybe it’s time to move on? Whether you agree with it or not in my opinion in the context of the Canadian labour landscape AC is still a “good” job, it can absolutely be better but I will stand on my comment

[Fanblade]

Well said...

The parts that bother me are the ones about "making more in a current job"... ok then the industry's initial short comings/risk is a you problem for "newlygrounded". Can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen but don't criticize it for the rest of us or make up some nonsensical "thanks ACPA" for his failure in getting into the industry.

In my experience over the years the one who bash the working conditions/lifestyle are the ones who were destined to not make it past their PPL or complete their CPL training. This much is evident here.

Neither of you read the latest P4C newsletter did you?

Another chart and it’s sobering. Actually it made me angry. Maybe go find it before you keep posting

I don’t know what you want from us? Of course I want more money, I never said I didn’t.
I’m doing all I can to help change that, which isn’t much at the moment. In 2023 we will advocate for more money. I said I would walk the line if it came to that. I said I will vote for people who seem like they can realistically make it happen. Unfortunately I am late to the party here, I wasn’t around to help prevent TA2 and FOS from happening. I have to deal with the pieces you guys left us. But I’m not going to pretend to hate my job or the pitiful lifestyle it provides me.

You said earlier you did this out of passion, well if the passion is gone and you don’t think the renumeration is there anymore maybe it’s time to move on? Whether you agree with it or not in my opinion in the context of the Canadian labour landscape AC is still a “good” job, it can absolutely be better but I will stand on my comment

Nice. Get lost old fart? Right after get lost new guy.

I enjoy my job. My issue with your comments is you are telling everyone how great your pay check is, when it is probably 25% less than 20 years ago when you factor in inflation.

You aren’t someone who is helping. You are preaching our current situation is just peachy even though we have never recovered from huge losses. Even though we keep voluntarily taking more and more cuts.

[NotDirty!]

Ten years - Never again. 4 years with immediate uplift to '02 rates corrected for COL.

Just to give you an idea, the 2002 rates for a yr 12 a320 capt in 2021 dollars would be $290.19 (1/2 DN), or, 26.86% higher than the 2021 rate of $228.75.

[Fanblade]

Ten years - Never again. 4 years with immediate uplift to '02 rates corrected for COL.

Just to give you an idea, the 2002 rates for a yr 12 a320 capt in 2021 dollars would be $290.19 (1/2 DN), or, 26.86% higher than the 2021 rate of $228.75.

You’ve done some nice work NotDirty. Keep it up. People need to be reminded just how pathetic ACPA’s performance has been over the last 15 years. Some people are blinded by the expansion and their personal good fortune in timing that expansion.

Eventually expansion stops and those that get hired have to progress through much less fortunate wage scales.

[altiplano]

well if the passion is gone and you don’t think the renumeration is there anymore maybe it’s time to move on?

NO NO NO.

The be happy and hope for better but either way it's still a pretty good job, fallacy is part of the problem.

We know what the job is. It's not what it used to be. We're really behind.

Can you imagine if the corporation took that position?

"We sure have these guys bent over a barrel, lowest paid Legacy Airline pilots in the world, most productive Pilot group in North America, most CPA flying of any NA Legacy Airline, B & C scale rates! We've got it pretty F-n good! Maybe we got enough out of then, time to let up and move on."

They will never do that. They are relentless. We DON'T have it as good as our peers or ourselves 20 years ago. Are you happy being the loser? I see you say you want better, you'll support who can get you better, that's good... but it's a chink in our efforts when we tell guys to "just accept that we're the best there is around here, move on if you're not happy with it."

Solidarity. 2002 rates corrected for COL or we walk in 2024. No more concessions.

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

+1!!!!!!

Every AC pilot should go invest in a new pair of "walking" shoes. Make sure to break them in before 2024 rolls around.

[Fanblade]

+1!!!!!!

Every AC pilot should go invest in a new pair of "walking" shoes. Make sure to break them in before 2024 rolls around.

Not with ACPA at the helm. We will have another substandard long term contract pushed on us.

ACPA has provided zero and I mean zero, recognition of how far we have fallen. Nor will they even discuss those wages from the past.

They simply will not do it. Just try and ask for a benchmarking excercise from them. No chance.

Memories are short. During the Cargo vote ACPA was pushing a 10% pay cut on top of an already 20% reduced 767 wage. Remember that?

They even refused to call it a pay cut on the grounds that although we have flown 767's. And have flown dedicated cargo. We have never flown dedicated 767 cargo, so there is no previous wage.

Straight up claimed the wage formula within our contract not valid.

You can't make this crap up. If a union will go to that length to gaslight and push for pay cuts, how on earth would anyone expect gains? Why would anyone expect anything other than the current trajectory out of ACPA?

We need someone like NoDirty to actually start benchmarking the actual brutal truth of the last 20 years. All of it. All at once.

Then ask ourselves. What is ACPA doing about it?

Nothing. In fact only a matter of time before they float another pay cut.

[47north]

well if the passion is gone and you don’t think the renumeration is there anymore maybe it’s time to move on?

NO NO NO.

The be happy and hope for better but either way it's still a pretty good job, fallacy is part of the problem.

We know what the job is. It's not what it used to be. We're really behind.

Can you imagine if the corporation took that position?

"We sure have these guys bent over a barrel, lowest paid Legacy Airline pilots in the world, most productive Pilot group in North America, most CPA flying of any NA Legacy Airline, B & C scale rates! We've got it pretty F-n good! Maybe we got enough out of then, time to let up and move on."

They will never do that. They are relentless. We DON'T have it as good as our peers or ourselves 20 years ago. Are you happy being the loser? I see you say you want better, you'll support who can get you better, that's good... but it's a chink in our efforts when we tell guys to "just accept that we're the best there is around here, move on if you're not happy with it."

Solidarity. 2002 rates corrected for COL or we walk in 2024. No more concessions.

Hate to break it to you, but you won’t be ‘walking’ in 2024. Look at the history of the last twenty years. No AC affiliated pilot group has been allowed to walk for more than a day or two. The government can and will stop any walkout at the request of the corporation based on harming the overall economy.

[Fanblade]

well if the passion is gone and you don’t think the renumeration is there anymore maybe it’s time to move on?

NO NO NO.

The be happy and hope for better but either way it's still a pretty good job, fallacy is part of the problem.

We know what the job is. It's not what it used to be. We're really behind.

Can you imagine if the corporation took that position?

"We sure have these guys bent over a barrel, lowest paid Legacy Airline pilots in the world, most productive Pilot group in North America, most CPA flying of any NA Legacy Airline, B & C scale rates! We've got it pretty F-n good! Maybe we got enough out of then, time to let up and move on."

They will never do that. They are relentless. We DON'T have it as good as our peers or ourselves 20 years ago. Are you happy being the loser? I see you say you want better, you'll support who can get you better, that's good... but it's a chink in our efforts when we tell guys to "just accept that we're the best there is around here, move on if you're not happy with it."

Solidarity. 2002 rates corrected for COL or we walk in 2024. No more concessions.

Hate to break it to you, but you won’t be ‘walking’ in 2024. Look at the history of the last twenty years. No AC affiliated pilot group has been allowed to walk for more than a day or two. The government can and will stop any walkout at the request of the corporation based on harming the overall economy.

Not true. What the govt did in 2012 was overturned by courts. We weren't the only ones they did it too. The other groups fought back and won.

Us? We dropped the case, signed a 10 year deal and locked in FOS.

Now we have people that actually believe labor law has been altered for us.

It hasn't.

It's a gaslit false narrative painted by ACPA to deflect responsibility for our current situation. It is further proof ACPA will NOT accept the challenge to recover our losses. Instead it is just rationalization, justifications and excuses why we can't.

Besides there are lots of options open other than full stoppage

[47north]

NO NO NO.

The be happy and hope for better but either way it's still a pretty good job, fallacy is part of the problem.

We know what the job is. It's not what it used to be. We're really behind.

Can you imagine if the corporation took that position?

"We sure have these guys bent over a barrel, lowest paid Legacy Airline pilots in the world, most productive Pilot group in North America, most CPA flying of any NA Legacy Airline, B & C scale rates! We've got it pretty F-n good! Maybe we got enough out of then, time to let up and move on."

They will never do that. They are relentless. We DON'T have it as good as our peers or ourselves 20 years ago. Are you happy being the loser? I see you say you want better, you'll support who can get you better, that's good... but it's a chink in our efforts when we tell guys to "just accept that we're the best there is around here, move on if you're not happy with it."

Solidarity. 2002 rates corrected for COL or we walk in 2024. No more concessions.

Hate to break it to you, but you won’t be ‘walking’ in 2024. Look at the history of the last twenty years. No AC affiliated pilot group has been allowed to walk for more than a day or two. The government can and will stop any walkout at the request of the corporation based on harming the overall economy.

Not true. What the govt did in 2012 was overturned by courts. We weren't the only ones they did it too. The other groups fought back and won.

Us? We dropped the case, signed a 10 year deal and locked in FOS.

Now we have people that actually believe labor law has been altered for us.

It hasn't.

It's a gaslit false narrative painted by ACPA to deflect responsibility for our current situation. It is further proof ACPA will NOT accept the challenge to recover our losses. Instead it is just rationalization, justifications and excuses why we can't.

Besides there are lots of options open other than full stoppage

Yeah don’t think so.

How did that work out for the Port of Montreal?

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/ ... 021-05-01/

They were going to legislate the CN workers back too but they ended up settling:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews. ... -work/amp/

You can pounds your chests all you like, but it ain’t going to happen.