No pilot recalls until Spring 2023???

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

Sounds like you have no spine bud. If this is the attitude we have going forward be prepared to get steam rolled. Even if we were to get mandated back to work what is stopping us from saying NO. Ever heard of a wildcat?

We need unity, we need courage, we need leaders and members with an actual backbone to stand up for themselves. Executives love weak kneed, obedient, apathetic individuals like you. Anything we give up, they take for themselves. Its that simple.

[Fanblade]

Hate to break it to you, but you won’t be ‘walking’ in 2024. Look at the history of the last twenty years. No AC affiliated pilot group has been allowed to walk for more than a day or two. The government can and will stop any walkout at the request of the corporation based on harming the overall economy.

Not true. What the govt did in 2012 was overturned by courts. We weren't the only ones they did it too. The other groups fought back and won.

Us? We dropped the case, signed a 10 year deal and locked in FOS.

Now we have people that actually believe labor law has been altered for us.

It hasn't.

It's a gaslit false narrative painted by ACPA to deflect responsibility for our current situation. It is further proof ACPA will NOT accept the challenge to recover our losses. Instead it is just rationalization, justifications and excuses why we can't.

Besides there are lots of options open other than full stoppage

Yeah don’t think so.

How did that work out for the Port of Montreal?

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/ ... 021-05-01/

They were going to legislate the CN workers back too but they ended up settling:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews. ... -work/amp/

You can pounds your chests all you like, but it ain’t going to happen.

Both of your examples were permitted to strike. Intervention happened AFTER. In some cases a week or two after.

That is the historical normal. Leave the parties to their own devices. If they go too long intervene.

This is completely different than what was turned over by the courts. The government can not stop a strike before it starts.

To insinuate that somehow what happened in 2012 to so many workers, including us, is now the new normal is a false narrative.

Nothing has changed from the past when it comes to strikes. Employee rights were protected by real unions.

Only ACPA would actually tell its members that the historical normal no longer exists.

It avoids responsibility. It reduces expectations. It's an excuse for past and future failure.

On top of that much more creative ways to apply pressure have been employed by other groups in countries with far less favorable labor laws.

Strike on Thursdays for example. Everyone can plan around it.

[Fanblade]

Sounds like you have no spine bud. If this is the attitude we have going forward be prepared to get steam rolled. Even if we were to get mandated back to work what is stopping us from saying NO. Ever heard of a wildcat?

We need unity, we need courage, we need leaders and members with an actual backbone to stand up for themselves. Executives love weak kneed, obedient, apathetic individuals like you. Anything we give up, they take for themselves. Its that simple.

ACPA sits in its own isolated echo chamber. Whatever echo resonated back becomes the perceived reality.

No one there to go........hmmmm maybe you should re think that? No input from external sources going ........hmmmm....what?

That echo chamber is a threat to us all.

[QKZXKV]

Don’t worry about this guy, he’s a never was, a downer. There were 28 year olds at AC precovid making 200k+ as narrowbody captains who are currently sitting on reinstatement rights to get back into it as soon as it turns around. Sure you can make more as an American pilot but in Canukistan that’s still a pretty good payday. And this wet blanket flightschool drop out has the balls to come here and lecture us about how terrible our job is? He thinks he’s going to make more money driving a forklift? Good luck.
My job is great, there are very few jobs in this country that will pay an early 30 year old 200k plus. Buck up newlygrounded, it’s going to be a tough life for a whiner like you.
For the rest of us it sounds like some good news coming down the pipe on Friday, we will be off to the races before you know it.

Well said...

The parts that bother me are the ones about "making more in a current job"... ok then the industry's initial short comings/risk is a you problem for "newlygrounded". Can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen but don't criticize it for the rest of us or make up some nonsensical "thanks ACPA" for his failure in getting into the industry.

In my experience over the years the one who bash the working conditions/lifestyle are the ones who were destined to not make it past their PPL or complete their CPL training. This much is evident here.

Neither of you read the latest P4C newsletter did you?

Another chart and it’s sobering. Actually it made me angry. Maybe go find it before you keep posting

Lol Fanblade, I have no issues with what you're saying. My issue is with someone who's allegedly struggled to get their PPL finished, coming on here and talking about ACPA/ALPA____ 'fill in the blank' about how they've ruined his/her career prospects and desire to work in the industry. It's nothing more than a 'you' problem for newlygrounded. As I said, I've met a lot of people who were not both feet in when they started their training and they didn't make it regardless of our working conditions/union decision making.

Everything else on here, I refuse to go down those rabbit holes since I was not a part of that history.

[47north]

Not true. What the govt did in 2012 was overturned by courts. We weren't the only ones they did it too. The other groups fought back and won.

Us? We dropped the case, signed a 10 year deal and locked in FOS.

Now we have people that actually believe labor law has been altered for us.

It hasn't.

It's a gaslit false narrative painted by ACPA to deflect responsibility for our current situation. It is further proof ACPA will NOT accept the challenge to recover our losses. Instead it is just rationalization, justifications and excuses why we can't.

Besides there are lots of options open other than full stoppage

Yeah don’t think so.

How did that work out for the Port of Montreal?

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/ ... 021-05-01/

They were going to legislate the CN workers back too but they ended up settling:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews. ... -work/amp/

You can pounds your chests all you like, but it ain’t going to happen.

Both of your examples were permitted to strike. Intervention happened AFTER. In some cases a week or two after.

That is the historical normal. Leave the parties to their own devices. If they go too long intervene.

This is completely different than what was turned over by the courts. The government can not stop a strike before it starts.

To insinuate that somehow what happened in 2012 to so many workers, including us, is now the new normal is a false narrative.

Nothing has changed from the past when it comes to strikes. Employee rights were protected by real unions.

Only ACPA would actually tell its members that the historical normal no longer exists.

It avoids responsibility. It reduces expectations. It's an excuse for past and future failure.

On top of that much more creative ways to apply pressure have been employed by other groups in countries with far less favorable labor laws.

Strike on Thursdays for example. Everyone can plan around it.

So you go out for a day or two and the company knows the government will force you back and has no incentive to negotiate. The government legislates you back to work and appoints a mediator. In the end you get what - 2% a year at best?

Or you try your rotating ‘Thursday’ strikes and the company locks you out. The government again forces you back and you get squat.

Talk to some Jazz ALPA leaders and they will explain it to you. Not saying that it is right, but based on history it won’t go any different the next time and you all will be back here furious that it didn’t work out in you favour.

The only thing that may change the equation is a severe pilot shortage which with supply and demand should cause the conditions to improve over time. I wouldn’t count on that either as there seems to be a never ending supply of pilots willing to sign on for the current compensation.

[altiplano]

Hate to break it to you, but you won’t be ‘walking’ in 2024. Look at the history of the last twenty years. No AC affiliated pilot group has been allowed to walk for more than a day or two. The government can and will stop any walkout at the request of the corporation based on harming the overall economy.

Not true. What the govt did in 2012 was overturned by courts. We weren't the only ones they did it too. The other groups fought back and won.

Us? We dropped the case, signed a 10 year deal and locked in FOS.

Now we have people that actually believe labor law has been altered for us.

It hasn't.

It's a gaslit false narrative painted by ACPA to deflect responsibility for our current situation. It is further proof ACPA will NOT accept the challenge to recover our losses. Instead it is just rationalization, justifications and excuses why we can't.

Besides there are lots of options open other than full stoppage

Yeah don’t think so.

How did that work out for the Port of Montreal?

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/ ... 021-05-01/

They were going to legislate the CN workers back too but they ended up settling:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews. ... -work/amp/

You can pounds your chests all you like, but it ain’t going to happen.

What?.A Global News article? What's that even supposed to say?

What makes you think Air Canada Pilots are so special that the Charter and Constitutional law doesn't apply to us?

CUPW won in SCC

Canada Post Corp. v. Canadian Union of Postal Workers

https://decisions.scc-csc.ca/scc-csc/sc ... 6/index.do

Saskatchewan Federation of Labour won in SCC

Saskatchewan Federation of Labour v Saskatchewan

https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-c ... 0/index.do

RCMP members won in SCC

Mounted Police Association of Ontario v Canada (Attorney General)

https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-c ... 7/index.do

BC Hospital support workers won in SCC

Health Services and Support - Facilities Subsector Bargaining Assn. v. British Columbia

https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-c ... 6/index.do

The only reason we fail is because we don't stand up to it

Collective bargaining is a right in this country. SCC says so. And they say that the right to strike is integral to it.

[Fanblade]

Yeah don’t think so.

How did that work out for the Port of Montreal?

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/ ... 021-05-01/

They were going to legislate the CN workers back too but they ended up settling:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews. ... -work/amp/

You can pounds your chests all you like, but it ain’t going to happen.

Both of your examples were permitted to strike. Intervention happened AFTER. In some cases a week or two after.

That is the historical normal. Leave the parties to their own devices. If they go too long intervene.

This is completely different than what was turned over by the courts. The government can not stop a strike before it starts.

To insinuate that somehow what happened in 2012 to so many workers, including us, is now the new normal is a false narrative.

Nothing has changed from the past when it comes to strikes. Employee rights were protected by real unions.

Only ACPA would actually tell its members that the historical normal no longer exists.

It avoids responsibility. It reduces expectations. It's an excuse for past and future failure.

On top of that much more creative ways to apply pressure have been employed by other groups in countries with far less favorable labor laws.

Strike on Thursdays for example. Everyone can plan around it.

So you go out for a day or two and the company knows the government will force you back and has no incentive to negotiate. The government legislates you back to work and appoints a mediator. In the end you get what - 2% a year at best?

Or you try your rotating ‘Thursday’ strikes and the company locks you out. The government again forces you back and you get squat.

Talk to some Jazz ALPA leaders and they will explain it to you. Not saying that it is right, but based on history it won’t go any different the next time and you all will be back here furious that it didn’t work out in you favour.

The only thing that may change the equation is a severe pilot shortage which with supply and demand should cause the conditions to improve over time. I wouldn’t count on that either as there seems to be a never ending supply of pilots willing to sign on for the current compensation.

So let me get this straight.

You suggest to give up. We have no control. Only external factors such as pilot supply can have a positive impact.

You sound like ACPA.

Again the laws governing strike have not changed. Those same laws applied prior to 2003 when ACPA was keeping up with US carriers and beating inflation.

There was a blurp in 2011-2015 (Harper) where the conservative government was over stepping the law. That was shot down by the courts.

That blurp no longer exists. It's now an excuse.

Currently there is no difference between 1998 and 2021. If there is no difference in the rights of employees to strike, what explains the difference in outcomes for ACPA pilots then and now?? It's clearly not the ability to strike, as it hasn't changed.

Other unions have not experience poor outcomes in Canada. Almost all are above inflation in the last 20 years. Same labor laws. Same ability to strike. What do they know or do that we don't?

What has changed is our willingness to strategically work within the rules to apply pressure on the company.

ACPA simply doesn't want to. They want to work with and facilitate the needs of the company.

Cargo. Selling a further 10% cut. That should improve outcomes right? Who's wants did that facilitate? And with ACPA's attitude it will never be recovered.

The strike nonsense is just cover.

ACPA leadership pre 2000 to now? 180 degrees in the opposing direction . Outcomes are showing the results.

[47north]

Both of your examples were permitted to strike. Intervention happened AFTER. In some cases a week or two after.

That is the historical normal. Leave the parties to their own devices. If they go too long intervene.

This is completely different than what was turned over by the courts. The government can not stop a strike before it starts.

To insinuate that somehow what happened in 2012 to so many workers, including us, is now the new normal is a false narrative.

Nothing has changed from the past when it comes to strikes. Employee rights were protected by real unions.

Only ACPA would actually tell its members that the historical normal no longer exists.

It avoids responsibility. It reduces expectations. It's an excuse for past and future failure.

On top of that much more creative ways to apply pressure have been employed by other groups in countries with far less favorable labor laws.

Strike on Thursdays for example. Everyone can plan around it.

So you go out for a day or two and the company knows the government will force you back and has no incentive to negotiate. The government legislates you back to work and appoints a mediator. In the end you get what - 2% a year at best?

Or you try your rotating ‘Thursday’ strikes and the company locks you out. The government again forces you back and you get squat.

Talk to some Jazz ALPA leaders and they will explain it to you. Not saying that it is right, but based on history it won’t go any different the next time and you all will be back here furious that it didn’t work out in you favour.

The only thing that may change the equation is a severe pilot shortage which with supply and demand should cause the conditions to improve over time. I wouldn’t count on that either as there seems to be a never ending supply of pilots willing to sign on for the current compensation.

So let me get this straight.

You suggest to give up. We have no control. Only external factors such as pilot supply can have a positive impact.

You sound like ACPA.

Again the laws governing strike have not changed. Those same laws applied prior to 2003 when ACPA was keeping up with US carriers and beating inflation.

There was a blurp in 2011-2015 (Harper) where the conservative government was over stepping the law. That was shot down by the courts.

That blurp no longer exists. It's now an excuse.

Currently there is no difference between 1998 and 2021. If there is no difference in the rights of employees to strike, what explains the difference in outcomes? It's clearly not the ability to strike, as it hasn't changed.

Other unions have not experience poor outcomes in Canada. Almost all are above inflation in the last 20 years. Same labor laws. Same ability to strike. What do they know or do that we don't?

What has changed is our willingness to strategically work within the rules to apply pressure on the company.

ACPA simply doesn't want to. They want to work with and facilitate the needs of the company.

The strike nonsense is just cover

No I would not suggest you give up, but I wouldn’t rely on the threat of a strike as a big stick that the company will cower from.

Better to get things you want when the company comes looking for something, versus trying to negotiate from a position of weakness. The 767 cargo operation would be an example, but for some reason your union gave concessions when that would have been the time to call their bluff and seek improvements in other areas too.

[Fanblade]

Well said...

The parts that bother me are the ones about "making more in a current job"... ok then the industry's initial short comings/risk is a you problem for "newlygrounded". Can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen but don't criticize it for the rest of us or make up some nonsensical "thanks ACPA" for his failure in getting into the industry.

In my experience over the years the one who bash the working conditions/lifestyle are the ones who were destined to not make it past their PPL or complete their CPL training. This much is evident here.

Neither of you read the latest P4C newsletter did you?

Another chart and it’s sobering. Actually it made me angry. Maybe go find it before you keep posting

Lol Fanblade, I have no issues with what you're saying. My issue is with someone who's allegedly struggled to get their PPL finished, coming on here and talking about ACPA/ALPA____ 'fill in the blank' about how they've ruined his/her career prospects and desire to work in the industry. It's nothing more than a 'you' problem for newlygrounded. As I said, I've met a lot of people who were not both feet in when they started their training and they didn't make it regardless of our working conditions/union decision making.

Everything else on here, I refuse to go down those rabbit holes since I was not a part of that history.

Yeah. " Fill in the blank". Wondering the same.

As for your last line.

If you chose to ignore the past? Your generation will have lost it forever.

I'm not speaking up for me.

[redbusdriver]

You sound like ACPA.

fanblade, i enjoy most of your posts and you make plenty of good points, but this. so when someone doesn't share your view, that's your go to? might as well call them racist while you're at it.

and for those calling for illegal job action, good luck with that, let me know how that turns out.

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

As somebody who considers them self a red "bus driver" what do you think is the best way forward? How do you think our association should conduct themselves to extract meaningful gains?

What are your views? Because all I see you do is shoot down any idea or thoughts other people have.

[a220hereicome]

But the fact is that we were always in the mix with the US Legacy Airlines, it's largely in the last decade that we have completely imploded and failed to recover or keep pace. They have though, they are in fact very close to inflation adjusted pay across the past 20 years, from the prebankruptcy period. Meanwhile, during what was the best time ever in the history of our company, we fell far back by accepting concessionary deals again and again.

Sure about that, altiplano?

Google "United pilots contract 2000" to look at the pre-bankruptcy peak that they hit in 2003. It's the first hit on the page, with a link to the full contract PDF.

Then Google "United ALPA agreement airline pilot central" to look at the massive cuts they took in 2003. Second hit on the page, once again, the full contract.

United A320 CA 12 year rate at the peak in 2003 was $243/hr. Inflation adjusted in the US to 2021 would give $360/hr. Unfortunately for United pilots, they took a real beating in bankruptcy and that rate was cut to $147/hr in 2006

So where are they now? AirlinePilotCentral says the 2021 rate for United CA A320 12 is $283/hr. This would mean that they're 21% behind the inflation adjusted rate of $360. You call this "very close".

And ACPA? We peaked in 2003. A320 CA 12 was $205/hr (this was our best year), followed by brutal cuts in 2006 and years of stagnation. Inflation adjusted in Canada to 2021 would give $283/hr. Instead, it's $229/hr, so we're 19% behind where we should be.

I don't ever remember us being very close to the US carriers. I've gone back 18 years, not sure how much farther back is relevant.

[newlygrounded]

So I looked ahead in 2014 when I "jumped into this field". Are you telling me that the last 18 months was predictable? How about 9/11? How many pilots trained and pursued this career post 9/11, SARS-1??? the number is not zero. Again more fallacious thinking to think that we can ever look ahead of the present and fortune tell what will happen.

You might just be kicking yourself in a year or two or you may not be.. Fortune telling as you're doing isn't productive.

Don’t worry about this guy, he’s a never was, a downer. There were 28 year olds at AC precovid making 200k+ as narrowbody captains who are currently sitting on reinstatement rights to get back into it as soon as it turns around. Sure you can make more as an American pilot but in Canukistan that’s still a pretty good payday. And this wet blanket flightschool drop out has the balls to come here and lecture us about how terrible our job is? He thinks he’s going to make more money driving a forklift? Good luck.
My job is great, there are very few jobs in this country that will pay an early 30 year old 200k plus. Buck up newlygrounded, it’s going to be a tough life for a whiner like you.
For the rest of us it sounds like some good news coming down the pipe on Friday, we will be off to the races before you know it.

Well said...

The parts that bother me are the ones about "making more in a current job"... ok then the industry's initial short comings/risk is a you problem for "newlygrounded". Can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen but don't criticize it for the rest of us or make up some nonsensical "thanks ACPA" for his failure in getting into the industry.

In my experience over the years the one who bash the working conditions/lifestyle are the ones who were destined to not make it past their PPL or complete their CPL training. This much is evident here.

REALLY "initial" short comings? How long until you're well paid and "safe" from a layoff? In my book it's about 10 years!

As a new grad out of school you'd be making 60k easily, in any decent field.

pilot?
2 years instructing at least (20k a year)
1 year pilot in waiting up north (20k a year)
2 years as an FO up north (30k)
1 year as captain (50k/60k)

We're already at about 6 years until you get to Jazz. Even if you manage to go from Jazz to AC in a year, great you're on pathetic flat pay 7 years into your career and make less than a uni grad would out of school.

[QKZXKV]

Don’t worry about this guy, he’s a never was, a downer. There were 28 year olds at AC precovid making 200k+ as narrowbody captains who are currently sitting on reinstatement rights to get back into it as soon as it turns around. Sure you can make more as an American pilot but in Canukistan that’s still a pretty good payday. And this wet blanket flightschool drop out has the balls to come here and lecture us about how terrible our job is? He thinks he’s going to make more money driving a forklift? Good luck.
My job is great, there are very few jobs in this country that will pay an early 30 year old 200k plus. Buck up newlygrounded, it’s going to be a tough life for a whiner like you.
For the rest of us it sounds like some good news coming down the pipe on Friday, we will be off to the races before you know it.

Well said...

The parts that bother me are the ones about "making more in a current job"... ok then the industry's initial short comings/risk is a you problem for "newlygrounded". Can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen but don't criticize it for the rest of us or make up some nonsensical "thanks ACPA" for his failure in getting into the industry.

In my experience over the years the one who bash the working conditions/lifestyle are the ones who were destined to not make it past their PPL or complete their CPL training. This much is evident here.

REALLY "initial" short comings? How long until you're well paid and "safe" from a layoff? In my book it's about 10 years!

As a new grad out of school you'd be making 60k easily, in any decent field.

pilot?
2 years instructing at least (20k a year)
1 year pilot in waiting up north (20k a year)
2 years as an FO up north (30k)
1 year as captain (50k/60k)

We're already at about 6 years until you get to Jazz. Even if you manage to go from Jazz to AC in a year, great you're on pathetic flat pay 7 years into your career and make less than a uni grad would out of school.

Having done "grad school" for 4 yrs then getting the Jazz APP. You're incorrect. While my pay was not great in years 1-3 at Jazz, I was about 3 ground schools from no layoff based on my DOH there. Secondly, as someone who did a degree separate from Aviation, no absolutely not 60k. It's more like a crappy internship at some downtown office building until you impress the boss and he/she gives you the position you went to school for.

Staying at Jazz permanently does not mean poverty. It's a good contract with reasonable pay after year 4 as an FO up to maximum as a Captain. The contract rewards longevity. Please stop speaking on numbers and contractual stuff that you cannot reference because you're still at the "learning stage" of your aviation career (whatever that might be at this point).

Idk why you waste your time hear on an aviation careers section of a 705 carrier if your mind is made up about not ever working commercially. Most don't share your viewpoint (look at flight school enrollment numbers).

final point "We're already at about 6 years until you get to Jazz." You have no evidence to back that up. All of their workforce is back as of Aug 29th. Beyond that I don't expect it to be long before the next wave of hiring will take place. Again my point is, you're nothing but arbitrary in this discussion. There's nothing concrete with the "numbers" you push.

[QKZXKV]

Neither of you read the latest P4C newsletter did you?

Another chart and it’s sobering. Actually it made me angry. Maybe go find it before you keep posting

Lol Fanblade, I have no issues with what you're saying. My issue is with someone who's allegedly struggled to get their PPL finished, coming on here and talking about ACPA/ALPA____ 'fill in the blank' about how they've ruined his/her career prospects and desire to work in the industry. It's nothing more than a 'you' problem for newlygrounded. As I said, I've met a lot of people who were not both feet in when they started their training and they didn't make it regardless of our working conditions/union decision making.

Everything else on here, I refuse to go down those rabbit holes since I was not a part of that history.

Yeah. " Fill in the blank". Wondering the same.

As for your last line.

If you chose to ignore the past? Your generation will have lost it forever.

I'm not speaking up for me.

Oh I'm not ignoring the past, I'm just refusing revise the past as some do. Hence why I stay objective to it and speak of what I know and have experience with.

[Fanblade]

But the fact is that we were always in the mix with the US Legacy Airlines, it's largely in the last decade that we have completely imploded and failed to recover or keep pace. They have though, they are in fact very close to inflation adjusted pay across the past 20 years, from the prebankruptcy period. Meanwhile, during what was the best time ever in the history of our company, we fell far back by accepting concessionary deals again and again.

Sure about that, altiplano?

Google "United pilots contract 2000" to look at the pre-bankruptcy peak that they hit in 2003. It's the first hit on the page, with a link to the full contract PDF.

Then Google "United ALPA agreement airline pilot central" to look at the massive cuts they took in 2003. Second hit on the page, once again, the full contract.

United A320 CA 12 year rate at the peak in 2003 was $243/hr. Inflation adjusted in the US to 2021 would give $360/hr. Unfortunately for United pilots, they took a real beating in bankruptcy and that rate was cut to $147/hr in 2006

So where are they now? AirlinePilotCentral says the 2021 rate for United CA A320 12 is $283/hr. This would mean that they're 21% behind the inflation adjusted rate of $360. You call this "very close".

And ACPA? We peaked in 2003. A320 CA 12 was $205/hr (this was our best year), followed by brutal cuts in 2006 and years of stagnation. Inflation adjusted in Canada to 2021 would give $283/hr. Instead, it's $229/hr, so we're 19% behind where we should be.

I don't ever remember us being very close to the US carriers. I've gone back 18 years, not sure how much farther back is relevant.

What inflation calculator are you using. There are some wildly different US results depending on which you use. I got anywhere from $243 being worth $330 to 345, 352, 360 depending on the calculator. No idea why.

Here is the Delta pilot contract history they put out to their members in 2015. You know contract comparisons. Yeah those things.

Anyway according to Delta pilots they caught up to their pre bankruptcy wages in 2015. Albeit that was with 10% profit share.

Since then they have had further gains. United makes more than Delta currently.

http://www3.alpa.org/publications/DAL_P ... r_2014.pdf

This was what happened after that contract negotiations.

30% raises over 4 years.

https://onemileatatime.com/delta-pilot-pay-raise/

Today United makes more. Yes it was done partially through bonus. Never the less they have clawed everything back. Everything.

How does that compare to your, I mean ACPA’s, results?

Zero gains on our lost wages. Only voluntary pay cuts in the form of Rouge and cargo

[altiplano]

But the fact is that we were always in the mix with the US Legacy Airlines, it's largely in the last decade that we have completely imploded and failed to recover or keep pace. They have though, they are in fact very close to inflation adjusted pay across the past 20 years, from the prebankruptcy period. Meanwhile, during what was the best time ever in the history of our company, we fell far back by accepting concessionary deals again and again.

Sure about that, altiplano?

Google "United pilots contract 2000" to look at the pre-bankruptcy peak that they hit in 2003. It's the first hit on the page, with a link to the full contract PDF.

Then Google "United ALPA agreement airline pilot central" to look at the massive cuts they took in 2003. Second hit on the page, once again, the full contract.

United A320 CA 12 year rate at the peak in 2003 was $243/hr. Inflation adjusted in the US to 2021 would give $360/hr. Unfortunately for United pilots, they took a real beating in bankruptcy and that rate was cut to $147/hr in 2006

So where are they now? AirlinePilotCentral says the 2021 rate for United CA A320 12 is $283/hr. This would mean that they're 21% behind the inflation adjusted rate of $360. You call this "very close".

And ACPA? We peaked in 2003. A320 CA 12 was $205/hr (this was our best year), followed by brutal cuts in 2006 and years of stagnation. Inflation adjusted in Canada to 2021 would give $283/hr. Instead, it's $229/hr, so we're 19% behind where we should be.

I don't ever remember us being very close to the US carriers. I've gone back 18 years, not sure how much farther back is relevant.

Don't you have a "social media policy" or something there at ACPA HQ?

And that you post here to muddy the truth and justify your failure and without disclosing that you're a Union insider is laughable.

Why don't you and your committee give the membership a proper and full contract, wage, and work condition comparison to publish to the membership if we're so competitive with US Airlines?

[a220hereicome]

Anyway according to Delta pilots they caught up to their pre bankruptcy wages in 2015. Albeit that was with 10% profit share.

Fanblade.

No, they haven't clawed everything back. Not even close. The rates in the document you linked aren't adjusted for inflation.

As to your question, I'm using the inflation calculator from the US Bureau of Labour Statistics, the one that ends in .gov. You?

You're talking about the chart on page 26 of that contract comparison? The pay rate in 2003 was $306/hr. In 2015 it should be $390 adjusted for inflation, instead it was $297.

That's 24% behind. No surprise, as Delta pilots took a 32% reduction in 2004, and another 14% reduction in 2006. All in the document you provided.

And for the record, I don't think profit sharing should be included in pay rate comparisons. If the profit share is excluded they're 31% behind.

[newlygrounded]

Well said...

The parts that bother me are the ones about "making more in a current job"... ok then the industry's initial short comings/risk is a you problem for "newlygrounded". Can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen but don't criticize it for the rest of us or make up some nonsensical "thanks ACPA" for his failure in getting into the industry.

In my experience over the years the one who bash the working conditions/lifestyle are the ones who were destined to not make it past their PPL or complete their CPL training. This much is evident here.

REALLY "initial" short comings? How long until you're well paid and "safe" from a layoff? In my book it's about 10 years!

As a new grad out of school you'd be making 60k easily, in any decent field.

pilot?
2 years instructing at least (20k a year)
1 year pilot in waiting up north (20k a year)
2 years as an FO up north (30k)
1 year as captain (50k/60k)

We're already at about 6 years until you get to Jazz. Even if you manage to go from Jazz to AC in a year, great you're on pathetic flat pay 7 years into your career and make less than a uni grad would out of school.

Having done "grad school" for 4 yrs then getting the Jazz APP. You're incorrect. While my pay was not great in years 1-3 at Jazz, I was about 3 ground schools from no layoff based on my DOH there. Secondly, as someone who did a degree separate from Aviation, no absolutely not 60k. It's more like a crappy internship at some downtown office building until you impress the boss and he/she gives you the position you went to school for.

Staying at Jazz permanently does not mean poverty. It's a good contract with reasonable pay after year 4 as an FO up to maximum as a Captain. The contract rewards longevity. Please stop speaking on numbers and contractual stuff that you cannot reference because you're still at the "learning stage" of your aviation career (whatever that might be at this point).

Idk why you waste your time hear on an aviation careers section of a 705 carrier if your mind is made up about not ever working commercially. Most don't share your viewpoint (look at flight school enrollment numbers).

final point "We're already at about 6 years until you get to Jazz." You have no evidence to back that up. All of their workforce is back as of Aug 29th. Beyond that I don't expect it to be long before the next wave of hiring will take place. Again my point is, you're nothing but arbitrary in this discussion. There's nothing concrete with the "numbers" you push.

Be honest, how typical is 3 years? I know a ton of people who've been working about that long before the pandemic and they still didn't get the call from Jazz/WEN.

Jazz captain pay is really good! BUT the majority of people try to upgrade to mainline, based on what I feel is a typical length of time to get there, there is a good chance you'd be really junior when the 10 year aviation event hits.

I still know a lot of people trying to get into the industry so I find it interesting to watch. If for some reason I suddenly hate my job or the flying career becomes more appealing I'd consider jumping back into the grind.

I've spoken to some people at Jazz and Encore and they feel 5-6 years is fairly realistic if your instructing time is single engine VFR, especially if you don't want to go up north. I know my numbers aren't concrete but 1. we're both anonymous idiots arguing 2. Timing and who you know is such a big deal in this industry. I doubt anyone could give an actual concrete timeline

[scdriver]

REALLY "initial" short comings? How long until you're well paid and "safe" from a layoff? In my book it's about 10 years!

As a new grad out of school you'd be making 60k easily, in any decent field.

pilot?
2 years instructing at least (20k a year)
1 year pilot in waiting up north (20k a year)
2 years as an FO up north (30k)
1 year as captain (50k/60k)

We're already at about 6 years until you get to Jazz. Even if you manage to go from Jazz to AC in a year, great you're on pathetic flat pay 7 years into your career and make less than a uni grad would out of school.

Having done "grad school" for 4 yrs then getting the Jazz APP. You're incorrect. While my pay was not great in years 1-3 at Jazz, I was about 3 ground schools from no layoff based on my DOH there. Secondly, as someone who did a degree separate from Aviation, no absolutely not 60k. It's more like a crappy internship at some downtown office building until you impress the boss and he/she gives you the position you went to school for.

Staying at Jazz permanently does not mean poverty. It's a good contract with reasonable pay after year 4 as an FO up to maximum as a Captain. The contract rewards longevity. Please stop speaking on numbers and contractual stuff that you cannot reference because you're still at the "learning stage" of your aviation career (whatever that might be at this point).

Idk why you waste your time hear on an aviation careers section of a 705 carrier if your mind is made up about not ever working commercially. Most don't share your viewpoint (look at flight school enrollment numbers).

final point "We're already at about 6 years until you get to Jazz." You have no evidence to back that up. All of their workforce is back as of Aug 29th. Beyond that I don't expect it to be long before the next wave of hiring will take place. Again my point is, you're nothing but arbitrary in this discussion. There's nothing concrete with the "numbers" you push.

Jazz captain pay is really good! BUT the majority of people try to upgrade to mainline, based on what I feel is a typical length of time to get there, there is a good chance you'd be really junior when the 10 year aviation event hits.

I still know a lot of people trying to get into the industry so I find it interesting to watch. If for some reason I suddenly hate my job or the flying career becomes more appealing I'd consider jumping back into the grind.

If flying is ever what you (or anybody) really wants to do the best time to start is now. Some people are luckier and their “now” is when a job is easy to come by, some are unluckier. But at the end of the day every hour you spend working is time, experience, and seniority you’ll have before the next cyclical downturn hits, and it’s time, experience, and seniority that people who start later will not have. If it’s really a career you wanna make a go of, there’s no point waiting for the going to get good again. Start now, and when the going inevitably does get good again you’ll be there for a much better seat. Just my $.02