No pilot recalls until Spring 2023???

[Fanblade]

What if the Corp puts out a bid today with everyone back on paper?

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

Doesn't mean a damn thing if we are back on paper. We need to be back on PAYROLL.

[Fanblade]

Doesn't mean a damn thing if we are back on paper. We need to be back on PAYROLL.

I would agree. But this is ACPA. They would try to sell a mirror to a bind person.

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

ACPA is a "box of chocolates."

[tailgunner]

Looks like 300 recalls, as per MEC notice.

[altiplano]

The company has approved vacation buybacks for the 777 for the September 2021 block month. All furloughed pilots will need to be recalled for this to happen under the contract. Unless ACPA gives more concessions.

****, is the full furlough list recall piece just an opinion, or is it fact as per the contract?

T

19.02.05.04
Vacation buy-back will not be offered in any Block Period during which any Pilot is on furlough or there is a surplus of Pilots on the current Pilot Position Assignment List.

[iflyroads]

Looks like 300 recalls, as per MEC notice.

300 vacancies.

As I read it the company can recall them when they choose to do so. As early or late as they want.

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

Sounds like the Rouge contract WAWCON were not going to be viable with the new fatigue and duty rules. Company desperately needed to get rouge up and running to capture the leisure market. The 300 vacancies are due mostly in part to the new fatigue rules. It will Probably cost the company less to operate under mainline rules vs rouge rules with all the OT they would be required to dish out.

300 vacancies does not necessarily mean 300 recalls. It means 300 vacancies for active employees to bid on. Any open positions after will trigger recalls when training capacity permits. What will training capacity look like over the next year? Don't forget every Jazz pilot is back on payroll Aug 29th.

Yes this is a gain. It is a step in the right direction. I hope we don't forget how much negotiating capital was spent on rouge over the years and is now no longer relevant.

I don't really see any gains that ACPA fought for. More like gains that were inevitable due to changes in our fatigue rules.

CPA Scope grievence settlement didn't benefit furloughs-even though it severely effected us.
777 Vacation buyback-future grievance better benefit furloughs but I am not holding my breath.

Someone enlighten me on how this is a good deal for our furloughed members. I am struggling to see any substantial gains for us.

[altiplano]

"Air Canada recently reached out to your MEC as they worked through the implications of a restart of ACrouge."

Why did they do this? They don't have to... everything that allows them to operated Rouge is already in the Collective Agreement. Clearly they didn't do that just to offer Mainline wawcon.

LCC at Mainline wawcon is stupid anyway. Wash it away and merge the lists. That brings greater economies of scale to the company, better scheduling for the pilots, true unity in our contract again.

I think 300 vacancies is 300 vacancies although I'm unclear on the wording regarding timing based on the bid.

I think double time OT is tone deaf while we have 300 more on the street to recall yet.

"ACPA’s Labour Relations Department will complete the drafting and finalization of terms and conditions over the coming two weeks." - where have I seen this before?

Why are we moving ahead without final language agreed? Why are we amending our CA without a membership vote?

I suspect that there is more yet to drop here when we see the final language. For example why haven't we seen the vacation buyback contract violation addressed in the newsletter? Clearly it's part of this. There will be more to come...

[Tdicommuter]

It's crazy.

Rouge had 77.5 hours guarantee every month.. aka 930 yearly guarantee. Now they have... 900 big win!

If the company knew rouge was too expensive and wanted mainline rates what did we get? 300 vacancies...not attached to anything.... Well that's a mute point considering vacation buy back prevents anyone from being furloughed. That was leverage. We traded away leverage for nothing. Mainline wawcon at rouge is a win for them, not us. We sold the cow for magic beans. I am not advocating the continuation of the seperate companies; rather it was expensive, and to restore mainline we should have secured more than 'special days off'. How about a 10 percent raise for cargo.... Too expensive, sorry let's see what rouge costs. Nope gave up leverage for nothing.

Thanks ACPA

[TheStig]

"Air Canada recently reached out to your MEC as they worked through the implications of a restart of ACrouge."

Why did they do this? They don't have to... everything that allows them to operated Rouge is already in the Collective Agreement. Clearly they didn't do that just to offer Mainline wawcon.

LCC at Mainline wawcon is stupid anyway. Wash it away and merge the lists. That brings greater economies of scale to the company, better scheduling for the pilots, true unity in our contract again.

I think 300 vacancies is 300 vacancies although I'm unclear on the wording regarding timing based on the bid.

I think double time OT is tone deaf while we have 300 more on the street to recall yet.

"ACPA’s Labour Relations Department will complete the drafting and finalization of terms and conditions over the coming two weeks." - where have I seen this before?

Why are we moving ahead without final language agreed? Why are we amending our CA without a membership vote?

I suspect that there is more yet to drop here when we see the final language. For example why haven't we seen the vacation buyback contract violation addressed in the newsletter? Clearly it's part of this. There will be more to come...

Agree with every word of this. I believe the airline wants to ramp rouge up and needs current 320 pilots. Rouge pilots haven't even been completing their recurrent sims since this spring. The mainline 320 fleet is overstaffed and shrinking, I guess we'll have to wait and see how this is reflected on the equipment bid.

The 300 recalls are meaningless without firm dates. When the airline wants to bring pilots back they will, this agreement doesn't change that.

That ACPA would rewrite the contract without allowing the membership to vote on it...I'm at a loss for words.

[redbusdriver]

i think this is a step forward. 300 vacancies will lead to some recalls, how much remains to be seen. better than none. dates to be in the bid.
900 mbg is a good guarantee given current conditions, and as noted, it's temporary.
wages and conditions locked with mainline
no other fleet types being added without consent, so we can bargain to improve in other areas in that case.
i do expect others to look at this as a negative to fit their alpa agenda.

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

How was JAZ ALPA, if they are so terrible in your eyes Redbusdriver, able to to recall every single pilot Aug 29th. Their reason is because they didn't want the members losing benefits as CEWS was coming to a close. ACPA couldn't even negotiate us onto CEWS...

We are doing the company a MASSIVE favour giving them a huge amount of flexibility with Rouge. I would expect a massive favour in return. It doesn't seem like we are getting adequately compensated for the favour we are providing the company. I would have liked to see at the bare minimum a similar deal to what Jazz pilots got.

Considering AC pilots own that flying...

[Rooster69]

Is it just me or does every single time ACPA negotiates with the company they fell a need to be reasonable instead of actually forcing the companies hand? Why not go for the jugular ? Why is the Negotiating Chair also the YWG MEC rep?

[Dry Guy]

Sorry why is there going to be separate positions for Mainline and Rouge if they have identical WAWCON?

[redbusdriver]

How was JAZ ALPA, if they are so terrible in your eyes Redbusdriver, able to to recall every single pilot Aug 29th. Their reason is because they didn't want the members losing benefits as CEWS was coming to a close. ACPA couldn't even negotiate us onto CEWS...

We are doing the company a MASSIVE favour giving them a huge amount of flexibility with Rouge. I would expect a massive favour in return. It doesn't seem like we are getting adequately compensated for the favour we are providing the company. I would have liked to see at the bare minimum a similar deal to what Jazz pilots got.

Considering AC pilots own that flying...

this has been discussed before. domestic travel is rebounding first. there is no way the corporation is putting our planes on routes served by a dash. air canada is protecting it's bottom line, not the whims of pilots. does the it suck? yes. but i like to be optimistic, and would wager everyone is back on property by the spring. we are almost through this difficult time, and negots are around the corner after this, and that'll be the time to get the improvements on a contract that is still best in canada.

which brings me to another point. we often compare to usa airlines, but not anywhere else in the world, so why not? we are a world class airline. you'll find there are contracts that are worse than we have.
us airlines enjoy better taxes and lower fees, better pax counts and so on. if aircanada was based in the usa, you'd all have very valid points in comparison. aviation in canada is the red headed step child and a tax cash cow, margins are thinner here. yes the company has been in record profits, which we could've partook if not for a 10 yr contract. so don't do that again pls.

[QKZXKV]

How was JAZ ALPA, if they are so terrible in your eyes Redbusdriver, able to to recall every single pilot Aug 29th. Their reason is because they didn't want the members losing benefits as CEWS was coming to a close. ACPA couldn't even negotiate us onto CEWS...

We are doing the company a MASSIVE favour giving them a huge amount of flexibility with Rouge. I would expect a massive favour in return. It doesn't seem like we are getting adequately compensated for the favour we are providing the company. I would have liked to see at the bare minimum a similar deal to what Jazz pilots got.

Considering AC pilots own that flying...

this has been discussed before. domestic travel is rebounding first. there is no way the corporation is putting our planes on routes served by a dash. air canada is protecting it's bottom line, not the whims of pilots. does the it suck? yes. but i like to be optimistic, and would wager everyone is back on property by the spring. we are almost through this difficult time, and negots are around the corner after this, and that'll be the time to get the improvements on a contract that is still best in canada.

which brings me to another point. we often compare to usa airlines, but not anywhere else in the world, so why not? we are a world class airline. you'll find there are contracts that are worse than we have.
us airlines enjoy better taxes and lower fees, better pax counts and so on. if aircanada was based in the usa, you'd all have very valid points in comparison. aviation in canada is the red headed step child and a tax cash cow, margins are thinner here. yes the company has been in record profits, which we could've partook if not for a 10 yr contract. so don't do that again pls.

I'm nowhere near as optimistic as you are. I think we're headed back to square one to a reality of another March 2020. Our leaders and political physicians are too obsessed with raw numbers rather than focusing on severe vs non-severe.

I think a lot of us will be in our basements speculating on here for months to come sadly. I hope I'm wrong...

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

Is ACPA allowing the company to blatantly violate the collective agreement and basically saying to the membership "just let it happen or else"????

I encourage every active pilot to file a grievance about this.

ACPA needs to hold the company accountable! If ACPA can't do it perhaps the CIRB (Canadian Industrial Relations Board) can.

[Fanblade]

Is ACPA allowing the company to blatantly violate the collective agreement and basically saying to the membership "just let it happen or else"????

I encourage every active pilot to file a grievance about this.

ACPA needs to hold the company accountable! If ACPA can't do it perhaps the CIRB (Canadian Industrial Relations Board) can.

Pretty sure ACPA as the bargaining agent can do as they please. Do we even know at this point if a let was given for the vacation buy back or ACPA has just chosen to ignore the violation?

They are being incredibly vague on this distinction. My guess is they gave a let and are trying to put that fact under a rock.

If they gave a let there is nothing anyone can do now.

So did ACPA give a let? Yes or No?

[Tdicommuter]

Fyi for those interested...

The ACPA app has message feature in it.

So let's say hypothetically if you easily wanted to touch base with a MEC member you can open the app, go to messages, click the plus button, hit the magnifying glass and search a members name.

It's super quick, and easy to ask questions directly to members.

This really seems like a good time to push hard on getting answers before more leverage is traded for 'modest' gains.