No pilot recalls until Spring 2023???

[Fanblade]

Can you bid your Gdays in seniority ?

Yes and in exchange we lost all seniority while on reserve. I think what people are trying to tell you is that the trade off doesn’t have the value they would have expected.

If you had engaged the pilot group first, prior to entering negotiations, you would have figured this out.

Now the toothpaste is out of the tube. It’s never going back.

[Counterpoint]

Well I see their point, but I disagree with their conclusion.

The monthly pay uplift and overtime (on Gdays) is really significant, so is the all Gdays. I see the value.

As for the other point about vacation buyback it looks like the company made a mistake in letting all the 777CA ERIP go and then got a sudden increase in that flying. It’s a backward value for us, in that they allowed many older pilots to go without pension penalty. I don’t think they would have brought back furloughed pilots any faster but they might have passed on the 777 flying for lack of crew, which i think is not good.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

Well I see their point, but I disagree with their conclusion.

The monthly pay uplift and overtime (on Gdays) is really significant, so is the all Gdays. I see the value.

If only it was that simple. The old system the allowed more freedom to excercise the power of seinority. If you wanted to max hours / pay you could and end up with more days off or the ability to do VO. If you wanted to pass work as little as possible you could. Rarely were people forced into their O or T days, yet you were able to slide them and get days off you wouldn’t normally have had. Now you can’t slide those days unless crew sched picks you for VO going into your G days. In practice it was advantageous to be a senior pilot on reserve and give up that small pay uplift as opposed to being a junior block holder. This also allowed pilots more choice because they could bid a block relatively more junior than they will see going forward. Now that has all reversed. Rarely will any pilot on reserve see any more hours than the new guarantee because Crew Sched has complete control and can easily Time balance. Now your days off are stuck where they are and you have no say when you work and if you magically get the VO on your G day you are doing so at the expense of the remainder of the pilot group who would have done the entire trip at premium instead of just that portion of that day. Oh and if part of those G days are layover and have no credit attached, you do not get any premium for those days.

All Pain, very very little gain.

-Jimmy

[Fanblade]

I don’t think they would have brought back furloughed pilots any faster but they might have passed on the 777 flying for lack of crew, which i think is not good.

Your job is to look after members. It is not your job to operate this airline. That is management’s job. Union members getting sucked into believing they need to help keep the place going is a culture problem we have at ACPA. The company has been very successful in inserting a tug o war within our leaders allegiance. Company……members………company ………..members…..company………which one? That is the hallmark of a Yellow Union. Yellow unions get convinced to be management by proxi.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_union

A company or "yellow" union is a worker organization which is dominated or influenced by an employer, and is therefore not an independent trade union.

Some labor organizations are accused by rival unions of behaving like "company unions" if they are seen as having too close and cordial a relationship with the employer, even though they may be recognized in their respective jurisdictions as bona fide trade unions.[3]
[/i]

A real union leader would have said. “ How can I leverage the lack of 777 crews to the benefit of furloughs.” But yellow unions don’t think like that. They think their responsibility is to protect their employer first and foremost.

ACPA needs to get in its lane and stay there.

[altiplano]

I don’t think they would have brought back furloughed pilots any faster but they might have passed on the 777 flying for lack of crew, which i think is not good.

Your job is to look after members. It is not your job to operate this airline. That is management’s job. Union members getting sucked into believing they need to help keep the place going is a culture problem we have at ACPA. The company has been very successful in inserting a tug o war within our leaders allegiance. Company……members………company ………..members…..company………which one? That is the hallmark of a Yellow Union. Yellow unions get convinced to be management by proxi.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_union

A company or "yellow" union is a worker organization which is dominated or influenced by an employer, and is therefore not an independent trade union.

Some labor organizations are accused by rival unions of behaving like "company unions" if they are seen as having too close and cordial a relationship with the employer, even though they may be recognized in their respective jurisdictions as bona fide trade unions.[3]
[/i]

A real union leader would have said. “ How can I leverage the lack of 777 crews to the benefit of furloughs.” But yellow unions don’t think like that. They think their responsibility is to protect their employer first and foremost.

ACPA needs to get in its lane and stay there.

Good post.

C-suite and management problems, not pilot problems. We aren't managers. Were we cut in on the bonuses last year? F- no. Yet we gave first and we gave the most for the longest to help. 18 months reduced pay? Scope slashed. We're still paying. We still have guys on the street and every other department is hiring. Just wait for the next bid where we will somehow have to fix all the slashing they did and training crisis they created.

Company is always going to do what the company is going to do and it does it for itself. Even when it's short sighted.

Let them live with it. Look after your own members.

[NotDirty!]

The monthly pay uplift and overtime (on Gdays) is really significant, so is the all Gdays. I see the value.

Except with the new FDT regulations, the requirement for 1 single day free from duty in any 168 consecutive hours essentially would have made all of the O days guaranteed, for zero bargaining capital!

[rudder]

The monthly pay uplift and overtime (on Gdays) is really significant, so is the all Gdays. I see the value.

Except with the new FDT regulations, the requirement for 1 single day free from duty in any 168 consecutive hours essentially would have made all of the O days guaranteed, for zero bargaining capital!

Actually, it is 2 local nights rest so not only is the day off guaranteed, it cannot be used to do VO.

A 6:1 RSV cycle is only possible with specific RSV call out periods that meet the restrictive ‘local nights rest’ definition. Most cycles are 5:2 where the pilot cannot be used on the 2 nor add VO.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

I don’t think they would have brought back furloughed pilots any faster but they might have passed on the 777 flying for lack of crew, which i think is not good.

Your job is to look after members. It is not your job to operate this airline. That is management’s job. Union members getting sucked into believing they need to help keep the place going is a culture problem we have at ACPA. The company has been very successful in inserting a tug o war within our leaders allegiance. Company……members………company ………..members…..company………which one? That is the hallmark of a Yellow Union. Yellow unions get convinced to be management by proxi.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_union

A company or "yellow" union is a worker organization which is dominated or influenced by an employer, and is therefore not an independent trade union.

Some labor organizations are accused by rival unions of behaving like "company unions" if they are seen as having too close and cordial a relationship with the employer, even though they may be recognized in their respective jurisdictions as bona fide trade unions.[3]
[/i]

A real union leader would have said. “ How can I leverage the lack of 777 crews to the benefit of furloughs.” But yellow unions don’t think like that. They think their responsibility is to protect their employer first and foremost.

ACPA needs to get in its lane and stay there.

If counterpoint is who I think they are it's no wonder we're in this mess. A220hereicome as well. Pretty sure they are on negots.

[altiplano]

The monthly pay uplift and overtime (on Gdays) is really significant, so is the all Gdays. I see the value.

Except with the new FDT regulations, the requirement for 1 single day free from duty in any 168 consecutive hours essentially would have made all of the O days guaranteed, for zero bargaining capital!

Absolutely, then they come on here and try to gaslight you into thinking there was some kind of win.

ACPA should have sat on it's hands while the new regulations were integrated, and if the company didn't want to just move them into the C.A. They should have published a document stating what we were no longer permitted to do under the regs...

Let the company deal with it. Not our problem.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

The monthly pay uplift and overtime (on Gdays) is really significant, so is the all Gdays. I see the value.

Except with the new FDT regulations, the requirement for 1 single day free from duty in any 168 consecutive hours essentially would have made all of the O days guaranteed, for zero bargaining capital!

Absolutely, then they come on here and try to gaslight you into thinking there was some kind of win.

ACPA should have sat on it's hands while the new regulations were integrated, and if the company didn't want to just move them into the C.A. They should have published a document stating what we were no longer permitted to do under the regs...

Let the company deal with it. Not our problem.

"The company wouldn't go for it", I swear to god if I hear that one more time I'm going to lose it. Anyone who says that out loud or thinks it, shouldn't be anywhere near any of the super committees let alone negotiations.

[Fanblade]

The monthly pay uplift and overtime (on Gdays) is really significant, so is the all Gdays. I see the value.

Except with the new FDT regulations, the requirement for 1 single day free from duty in any 168 consecutive hours essentially would have made all of the O days guaranteed, for zero bargaining capital!

Absolutely, then they come on here and try to gaslight you into thinking there was some kind of win.

ACPA should have sat on it's hands while the new regulations were integrated, and if the company didn't want to just move them into the C.A. They should have published a document stating what we were no longer permitted to do under the regs...

Let the company deal with it. Not our problem.

Gaslighting is often very effective. But it is temporary. It’s a short sighted tactic. Eventually people start seeing the pattern. Then all it does is elicit anger.

How pissed off does it make you to hear someone say Cargo was not a 10% pay cut. That it was a 90% pay raise.

We may have flown a 767. We may have flown Cargo. But we have never flown a 767 in a Cargo config. So the wage to compare against is $0

Can you believe that came from a union???????

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

How pissed off does it make you to hear someone say Cargo was not a 10% pay cut. That it was a 90% pay raise.

The YVR Chair said this. I almost threw up.

[Counterpoint]

I understand gaslighting and the yellow union thing and the it’s not our the ACPA job to run the company. But isn’t in our collective interest to keep the company on a solid footing? This pandemic is a a problem for us as employed pilots no? I don’t see the leverage from the buybacks. The flying would probably not get scheduled, BTW did many take the buyback? I think I still disagree with your conclusions.

I mean we got compensated for the sliding days (I understand the flying out part as well, but not many could do that) and who wants to start the month of with a scheduled days off that keep moving even if you are senior ?

Now every pilot has days off guaranteed, not just block holders. If they run you into a day off they pay extra, so your are compensated which is wasn’t before.

I like this new system because POR are now treated on days off like everybody else and whether you get the hours or not, you get the Block holders money. I also like the balance and the only thing I see we’ve lost is the ability to pass as much, if you are senior and you have people below.

I dont see any of this as a win, but I don’t see it as a loss either.

[aeronauticaldisaster]

How many jobs did you save the company?

You do know you're in the union business right? Like you're supposed to defend the membership

It's called Best Fit

Not "we will honor your seniority"

The name itself pretty much speaks for itself. Worst is you didn't even negotiate proper language. You wonder why people want to go to ALPA? They want a group of professionals instead of a band of joyous novices that should be focusing on when is happy hour instead of their never ending amateur hour performances

You couldn't negotiate a deal between the Pillsbury Doughboy and the Cookie Monster. If the company is the blue Muppet doll - You would be worried about its caloric intake

If you cared about furloughs you would have negotiated something firm for them

Instead you cut them off, made them install an app with location tracking, and pissed away any leverage by YOU SPECIFICALLY PUBLICLY stating that Overtime has zero effect on crew planning on a Facebook group.

Top tip - take a look what alpa negotiated for their Air Transat guys with OT. They actually stated no OT until you bring back folks

Instead you allowed the company to just piss on us by violating our collective agreement with vacation buybacks and got one of your own crews locked up in Hong Kong

You can play division and base politics from your Belle Province but trust me, I look forward to a National meeting where I can hear some of your fine wisdom while calling us dip shits

Ps

What happened to your vice chair?

[Counterpoint]

Vitriolic Fantastic rant ! Couldn’t I be a member presumably just like you? I am not on Facebook. I don’t have a Vice-Chair. The only difference between you and me, is that I feel the latest deal was on balance okay.

Our seniority is respected in bidding days off, and we get compensated for the best fit instead of passing flying, with OT and block pay top-up for all POR and 12 days we can manage our life with for all POR.

I’m guessing you prefer the total win, but how do you think that’s going to happen during these very difficult times? You want to bring everybody back at all costs, but is that better than a right sized operation especially now?

I want ALPA too, only because the resources are I think better, and only if all commercial pilots are in ALPA, but I have no illusions that we will win big - I don’t think we will do better or worse. To me it’s a chance to bring every pilot under one umbrella. The Picher award stripped our group of all of that.

I don’t see the need for name calling or personal targeting because I look at the process as a balancing act and not a one-sided war against the airline and/or the ACPA. I understand your rage, but I don’t agree with it.

If ALPA AT won’t allow their pilots to do OT until they are all back flying so be it. Their members suffered far more harm than we have.They have two fleet types and so recalls and training are easier. Again, I see their ability to balance that no OT stance as easier and more appropriate compared to ours. How many of our pilots took the buyback?

Hey, I’m offering up a different opinion than yours that’s it. You don’t have to agree and that’s okay, but I don’t see this as a catastrophic loss, just a trade-off that is okay and makes more sense for all of us.

[dumpsterfire]

Watch out folks - here comes the defenders of the dumpster fire

AC pilots had huge leverage going into the Covid crisis due to the fact there are some many fleet types. Of course ACPA took credit for the lack of layoffs because well, they need to grasp at every straw they can as the staff all sat at home encouraging the pilots to take paycuts while they sat there on full pay & ACPA Reps chowed down on 82 hrs.

Now the latest - we can't bring back our furloughs because of all the fleet types

Newsflash - look at Jazz. They brought back ALL THEIR RECALLS ON THE SAME ACTIVATION DATE. Thats right - they utlized their leverage in out of seniority training and got everyone back on the payroll.

What has ACPA done? They offered their members the ability to bypass ON ZERO PAY & WITH ZERO YEARS OF SERVICE

In fact - if you are a recall from out west. YOU ARE FORCED TO COMMUTE WITHOUT ANY PLAN WHATSOEVER FOR YOU

No commuting passes. No perks. Just a giant - suck it up

ACPA - Time to go

[dumpsterfire]

Well I see their point, but I disagree with their conclusion.

The monthly pay uplift and overtime (on Gdays) is really significant, so is the all Gdays. I see the value.

As for the other point about vacation buyback it looks like the company made a mistake in letting all the 777CA ERIP go and then got a sudden increase in that flying. It’s a backward value for us, in that they allowed many older pilots to go without pension penalty. I don’t think they would have brought back furloughed pilots any faster but they might have passed on the 777 flying for lack of crew, which i think is not good.

This comment is so idiotic it needs a special medal of merit

If you have the company stuck in a tough spot - its called this word "leverage"

If they need to CANCEL A FLIGHT because of CREWING - then you get something for it

Its called L-E-V-E-R-A-G-E. Say it slowly & over and over again


Like say - a guaranteed date for recalls. You know your furloughs that are getting paid ZERO at home?

The "NHL of Airlines" is literally leading the way on how little can be done for furloughs with some of the worst union leadership on this side of the equator. We need new faces & a new outlook. The old guard hopefully sees the battering rooms at the gates and just lets these younger & more capable folks in.

Its scary that this is actually the thought process of a union rep on full display online.

[altiplano]

Look what a colossal F- up the training plan is, and next cmsc bid will be even more mess. Could you imagine if it was more lay offs? Just more mess.

The company was always going to lay off what they were going to lay off... spite, optics, keep the FAs happy, whatever...

So ACPA didn't prevent any layoffs at all, we just got leveraged over the threat because guys like counterpoint here, feel like it's their job to save the company and find balance... except really there's no balance, just the contract circling the shitter for the past decade+.

[RippleRock]

How pissed off does it make you to hear someone say Cargo was not a 10% pay cut. That it was a 90% pay raise.

The YVR Chair said this. I almost threw up.

There is plenty of cancer at ACPA still, at all levels. They need to be excised permanently.

Until the "yellow" mindset is gone in its entirety we are in trouble. The big kicker for me has always been the banning of the "red lanyard". ACPA did nothing. Anything related to ACPA identity was either banned or "flooded". Have you looked at the FA's luggage handle wrap? it looks exactly like the red ACPA wrap. That red handle was our last holdout from a prouder day. Now even that means nothing.

Perhaps we can get a union with a f'ing backbone. We can't even fight for the right to have back pockets on our uniform pants. That's the --definition-- of pathetic.

Perhaps one day when we are worthy, we can wear ALPA-i lanyards proudly.

[Fanblade]

If ALPA AT won’t allow their pilots to do OT until they are all back flying so be it. Their members suffered far more harm than we have.They have two fleet types and so recalls and training are easier. Again, I see their ability to balance that no OT stance as easier and more appropriate compared to ours.

What? Piece of advise. Don’t say that to a furloughs face. It won’t go well.

Furloughed Transat Pilots stayed on CEWS. Furloughed ACPA pilots ended up on EI with substantially less benefit.

ACPA furloughs are running out of benefit as I type. Some have ZERO income.

600 Furloughed Transat pilots. 600 Furloughed AC pilots.

Transat Pilots negotiate no overtime to get furloughs back. ACPA pilots working VO and keeping furloughs on the street longer. Allowing vacation buy backs and best fit.

Because of this Transat pilot furloughs will be shorter. AC furloughs will be longer. Longer and less benefit than Transat pilots.

Transat does not give language changes that reduces crews required. ACPA gives best fit which reduces crews required and increases the VO premium to 100% for reserve working a Gday. That will attract even more overtime to keep furloughs on the street. You know those furloughs you nonchalantly brush off as not harmed much yet have run out of any benefit.

You didn’t right size us. You gave the company a de facto reduction in required pilots.

There is a reason for all the hostility. It didn’t simply breed itself. People have genuinely had enough. Either ACPA has AC’s interest foremost on its mind, or ACPA is incompetent.

It doesn’t matter which. The path forward is the same.