No pilot recalls until Spring 2023???

[Counterpoint]

Well I guess I’ve made my counterpoints, as a member of the ACPA, you all seem to think I’m somebody else, all part of the hostility and rage I guess.

Let’s hope GR can get us ALPA and satisfy all that makes you folks mad.

[Fanblade]

How pissed off does it make you to hear someone say Cargo was not a 10% pay cut. That it was a 90% pay raise.

The YVR Chair said this. I almost threw up.

There is plenty of cancer at ACPA still, at all levels. They need to be excised permanently.

Until the "yellow" mindset is gone in its entirety we are in trouble. The big kicker for me has always been the banning of the "red lanyard". ACPA did nothing. Anything related to ACPA identity was either banned or "flooded". Have you looked at the FA's luggage handle wrap? it looks exactly like the red ACPA wrap. That red handle was our last holdout from a prouder day. Now even that means nothing.

Perhaps we can get a union with a f'ing backbone. We can't even fight for the right to have back pockets on our uniform pants. That's the --definition-- of pathetic.

Perhaps one day when we are worthy, we can wear ALPA-i lanyards proudly.

From experience. The Cancer will return if we sit and think everything is now fixed. There will be people already planning to run for ACPA office next fall with Non labour agendas. We can not stay in a Union that will eventually flip back to Yellow. And it will.

Escape now! If we don’t, all it takes is one seat to swap back and we are right where we started. 3 years ago we were well on our way on the unity file. Then came NEM elections. MM was one of them. Said all the right things. Became chair. Unity file put in the trash can.

It will happen again.

[Fanblade]

Well I guess I’ve made my counterpoints, as a member of the ACPA, you all seem to think I’m somebody else, all part of the hostility and rage I guess.

Let’s hope GR can get us ALPA and satisfy all that makes you folks mad.

January 2021

I’m a status quo guy

I respect your honesty and your right to choose. Your stance reflects in your choice of a candidate.

The pandemic crisis aside, I don’t think many Air Canada pilots agree with your sentiment that ACPA has been good for us. The fractured group is a result of ACPA’s failures. People seeing the failures and wanting to fix the problem. The problem is with 4000 plus pilots we end up with 4000 plus opinions on how to fix it. Notice though that the opposition is growing to the point of organizing.

If status quo continues the fractures will get larger and more organized. I suggest the status quo group heeds the warnings going on all around them. ACPA can be fixed within. But that requires willingness. Something for me personally I have given up on.

You could try to prove me wrong though.

You were warned.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

How pissed off does it make you to hear someone say Cargo was not a 10% pay cut. That it was a 90% pay raise.

The YVR Chair said this. I almost threw up.

There is plenty of cancer at ACPA still, at all levels. They need to be excised permanently.

Until the "yellow" mindset is gone in its entirety we are in trouble. The big kicker for me has always been the banning of the "red lanyard". ACPA did nothing. Anything related to ACPA identity was either banned or "flooded". Have you looked at the FA's luggage handle wrap? it looks exactly like the red ACPA wrap. That red handle was our last holdout from a prouder day. Now even that means nothing.

Perhaps we can get a union with a f'ing backbone. We can't even fight for the right to have back pockets on our uniform pants. That's the --definition-- of pathetic.

Perhaps one day when we are worthy, we can wear ALPA-i lanyards proudly.

If/even we end up ALPA I will proudly wear my lanyard. Jazz has been permitted to wear theirs for many years, so AC will not have a leg to stand on stopping us from doing so as well.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

Look what a colossal F- up the training plan is, and next cmsc bid will be even more mess. Could you imagine if it was more lay offs? Just more mess.

... keep the FAs happy....

Company is scrambling. And interesting point.. makes you wonder if the pilot layoffs were really just to appease the FAs. They are super entitled and make a lot of noise, if no pilots had been laid off they'd be screaming. Weren't they already doing so on Yammer right when this all started "when are the pilots getting laid off?"

Instead of you know... Being adults and instead of saying "what about them" worry about themselves. Last time I checked it doesn't take 75k and ten years to get to AC as an FA.

[737Maximilian]

If ALPA AT won’t allow their pilots to do OT until they are all back flying so be it. Their members suffered far more harm than we have.

Uh what?

If we compare bottom of the list AC to bottom of the list AT, their pilots received an extra year and a bit (or $30k) worth of CEWS. They will likely be back to flying a year earlier too. And to top it all off, their first four years of pay is significantly higher than AC's flat pay. When you count three years of furlough and four years of flat pay, I would bet AC pilots are well over $100,000 behind their AT counterparts.

Please explain to me how furloughed AC pilots have suffered less?

[scabbydoo]

If ALPA AT won’t allow their pilots to do OT until they are all back flying so be it. Their members suffered far more harm than we have.

Uh what?

If we compare bottom of the list AC to bottom of the list AT, their pilots received an extra year and a bit (or $30k) worth of CEWS. They will likely be back to flying a year earlier too. And to top it all off, their first four years of pay is significantly higher than AC's flat pay. When you count three years of furlough and four years of flat pay, I would bet AC pilots are well over $100,000 behind their AT counterparts.

Please explain to me how furloughed AC pilots have suffered less?

I second that! How out to lunch is this fucking clown?

Objectively, we have suffered the most out of any furloughed pilot group in the country:

- Only group to not be afforded CEWS
- First to be laid off, last to be recalled
- 4 years of flat-pay to look forward to (7 years total when this is all done)
- ACPA leadership picking up VO
- Vacation buy-backs
- Least likely to be hired by other operators

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

If ALPA AT won’t allow their pilots to do OT until they are all back flying so be it. Their members suffered far more harm than we have.

LOL, wow you really see the world through different eyes than most.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

If ALPA AT won’t allow their pilots to do OT until they are all back flying so be it. Their members suffered far more harm than we have.

Uh what?

If we compare bottom of the list AC to bottom of the list AT, their pilots received an extra year and a bit (or $30k) worth of CEWS. They will likely be back to flying a year earlier too. And to top it all off, their first four years of pay is significantly higher than AC's flat pay. When you count three years of furlough and four years of flat pay, I would bet AC pilots are well over $100,000 behind their AT counterparts.

Please explain to me how furloughed AC pilots have suffered less?

Agreed 100%!

AC furloughs have suffered the most of any airline in Canada.

[Counterpoint]

If ALPA AT won’t allow their pilots to do OT until they are all back flying so be it. Their members suffered far more harm than we have.

Uh what?

If we compare bottom of the list AC to bottom of the list AT, their pilots received an extra year and a bit (or $30k) worth of CEWS. They will likely be back to flying a year earlier too. And to top it all off, their first four years of pay is significantly higher than AC's flat pay. When you count three years of furlough and four years of flat pay, I would bet AC pilots are well over $100,000 behind their AT counterparts.

Please explain to me how furloughed AC pilots have suffered less?

Members far more harmed….not furloughed pilots far more harmed. AC let go 15%, AT let go almost 90% of all their pilots (at one point).

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

If ALPA AT won’t allow their pilots to do OT until they are all back flying so be it. Their members suffered far more harm than we have.

Uh what?

If we compare bottom of the list AC to bottom of the list AT, their pilots received an extra year and a bit (or $30k) worth of CEWS. They will likely be back to flying a year earlier too. And to top it all off, their first four years of pay is significantly higher than AC's flat pay. When you count three years of furlough and four years of flat pay, I would bet AC pilots are well over $100,000 behind their AT counterparts.

Please explain to me how furloughed AC pilots have suffered less?

Members far more harmed….not furloughed pilots far more harmed. AC let go 15%, AT let go almost 90% of all their pilots (at one point).

I'd love to know what galaxy you live in. Must be pretty far off, maybe Andromeda?

[737Maximilian]

Members far more harmed….not furloughed pilots far more harmed. AC let go 15%, AT let go almost 90% of all their pilots (at one point).

Counterpoint,

My apologies for taking your post out of context - I hope you can forgive me for my frustration.

You're correct on the ratio of pilots laid off. Where I would push back is with the amount ACPA had a role to play in this. By nature of our multiple types, the company was well aware a large scale pilot layoff would require years and years of training to get back up to speed. Even MS was heavily against further layoffs for this reason. Seeing what ACPA has done during my tenure here, I highly double they played much of a supporting role in this decision. The company has very clearly illustrated they'll do whatever is best for them, and the number of furloughed directly reflect this.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

If ALPA AT won’t allow their pilots to do OT until they are all back flying so be it. Their members suffered far more harm than we have.

I WISH our union stopped ppl from doing overtime.

Maybe then the scope chair wouldn't do month after month of 100 hours a month.

[aeronauticaldisaster]

If ALPA AT won’t allow their pilots to do OT until they are all back flying so be it. Their members suffered far more harm than we have.

Uh what?

If we compare bottom of the list AC to bottom of the list AT, their pilots received an extra year and a bit (or $30k) worth of CEWS. They will likely be back to flying a year earlier too. And to top it all off, their first four years of pay is significantly higher than AC's flat pay. When you count three years of furlough and four years of flat pay, I would bet AC pilots are well over $100,000 behind their AT counterparts.

Please explain to me how furloughed AC pilots have suffered less?

Members far more harmed….not furloughed pilots far more harmed. AC let go 15%, AT let go almost 90% of all their pilots (at one point).

This is literally the last line of messaging defense for ACPA...but...but..."we negotiated ONLY 15% layoffs..."

We were down to 55 hrs...55 hrs!! I mean flat pay pilot at 55 hrs...what does that even equate to? Starbucks barista starting wage??



Counterpoint,

What did the ACPA Staff do during our "darkest hour"? Did they take an equivalent pay cut? Were they "flying the line" around the globe during a pandemic or cuddling up under a blanket at their cottage?

What about the 15% who mostly STILL aren't back? Do you at least sign them up for the "Jelly Bean of the month" club?

[altiplano]

If ALPA AT won’t allow their pilots to do OT until they are all back flying so be it. Their members suffered far more harm than we have.

Uh what?

If we compare bottom of the list AC to bottom of the list AT, their pilots received an extra year and a bit (or $30k) worth of CEWS. They will likely be back to flying a year earlier too. And to top it all off, their first four years of pay is significantly higher than AC's flat pay. When you count three years of furlough and four years of flat pay, I would bet AC pilots are well over $100,000 behind their AT counterparts.

Please explain to me how furloughed AC pilots have suffered less?

Members far more harmed….not furloughed pilots far more harmed. AC let go 15%, AT let go almost 90% of all their pilots (at one point).

That's your problem...

You're using a vacation tour operator with a completely different business model and financial position as a comparator.

They aren't our comparator.

And even so, we are the only Canadian airline that didn't keep our "layoffs" on CEWS. Do you really think AC would have said no to our hundreds of millions of dollars in concessions and ask the added flexibility and blank cheques we wrote them if we made it a condition that the 600 had to keep getting a government paycheque? Just like the layoffs did at almost every other airline in this country.

Of course they wouldn't have. But people like you are short sighted and not capable of thinking on a level beyond what you're told or shown. Bunch of fucking chicken littles in this joint.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

That's your problem...

You're using a vacation tour operator with a completely different business model and financial position as a comparator.

They aren't our comparator.

And even so, we are the only Canadian airline that didn't keep our "layoffs" on CEWS. Do you really think AC would have said no to our hundreds of millions of dollars in concessions and ask the added flexibility and blank cheques we wrote them if we made it a condition that the 600 had to keep getting a government paycheque? Just like the layoffs did at almost every other airline in this country.

Of course they wouldn't have. But people like you are short sighted and not capable of thinking on a level beyond what you're told or shown. Bunch of fucking chicken littles in this joint.

Not short sighted, they just didn't give a shit about the 600 furloughs.

[737Maximilian]

And even so, we are the only Canadian airline that didn't keep our "layoffs" on CEWS. Do you really think AC would have said no to our hundreds of millions of dollars in concessions and ask the added flexibility and blank cheques we wrote them if we made it a condition that the 600 had to keep getting a government paycheque? Just like the layoffs did at almost every other airline in this country.

Very well said. Some semblance of an attempt to help the furloughed on the part of the union or company would have gone a long way. Instead, we were clearly forgotten by both, and AC will now have 600 fairly demoralized pilots returning over the next couple of years.

[Savage Poetry]

Returning over the next couple of years ? Lol

[yycflyguy]

Uh what?

If we compare bottom of the list AC to bottom of the list AT, their pilots received an extra year and a bit (or $30k) worth of CEWS. They will likely be back to flying a year earlier too. And to top it all off, their first four years of pay is significantly higher than AC's flat pay. When you count three years of furlough and four years of flat pay, I would bet AC pilots are well over $100,000 behind their AT counterparts.

Please explain to me how furloughed AC pilots have suffered less?

Members far more harmed….not furloughed pilots far more harmed. AC let go 15%, AT let go almost 90% of all their pilots (at one point).

I'd love to know what galaxy you live in. Must be pretty far off, maybe Andromeda?

Andromeda is the closest galaxy to ours.... but I get your point

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

Members far more harmed….not furloughed pilots far more harmed. AC let go 15%, AT let go almost 90% of all their pilots (at one point).

I'd love to know what galaxy you live in. Must be pretty far off, maybe Andromeda?

Andromeda is the closest galaxy to ours.... but I get your point

Contrary to how many AC pilots think they're astronauts, I make no such claims.