Take the vaccine, or lose your job - WTF?

[palebird]

Trudeau is not coming back.
As far as all the whining and moral posturing on Covid and vaccines it is pretty pathetic. If you can't see through the smoke screen then you will get whatever it is that is coming down. And yes I have had close family members pass away throughout this crisis and had to deal with all of the ridiculous restrictions which make these stressful situations much worse. Three people so far. Life goes on. The population has made their own crisis and cannot see it. Now we have a major financial crisis that will blow Covid out of the water. Get ready. It started in China and is arriving here this week. There will not be a "return back to normal". What you see is what you get.

[altiplano]

Make no mistake there is a lot of pressure placed unjustly on a lot of good people who haven't done anything wrong.

Last week we had ignorant protesters standing in front of the hospital throwing rocks at folks coming off shift, hollering about how they want 'medical freedom'. We've had a car keyed in the hospital parking lot and know some of the health care workers that have had death threats over the last year.

I'm really not surprised you consider that kind of behavior as 'have done nothing wrong' and those are 'good people'.

But you didn't answer the question. Do you stand by the drivel you are posting non stop ? Or will you still be flying for AC after Nov 1 ? It's really easy to 'talk the talk', but we want to know if you have what it takes to 'walk the walk'.

You treat it as though a monolith.

Get a wider perspective.

Religious covid lockdowners were keying cars with out of province plates and threatening people who took a vacation too. I don't think that's you though.

There are a lot of good regular people just trying to live their lives. Stop buying the hysteria over a few idiots that make the news.

[altiplano]

Make no mistake there is a lot of pressure placed unjustly on a lot of good people who haven't done anything wrong.

Last week we had ignorant protesters standing in front of the hospital throwing rocks at folks coming off shift, hollering about how they want 'medical freedom'. We've had a car keyed in the hospital parking lot and know some of the health care workers that have had death threats over the last year.

I'm really not surprised you consider that kind of behavior as 'have done nothing wrong' and those are 'good people'.

But you didn't answer the question. Do you stand by the drivel you are posting non stop ? Or will you still be flying for AC after Nov 1 ? It's really easy to 'talk the talk', but we want to know if you have what it takes to 'walk the walk'.

To me, Altiplano seems like the type of person who is going to vote for PPC today and then personally offended when they lose. Altiplano will then drive down to Parliament and storm it chanting "STOP THE STEAL!"

Grow up.

[goldeneagle]

There are a lot of good regular people just trying to live their lives. Stop buying the hysteria over a few idiots that make the news.

I see your point. It's the end of the world if you have to put on a mask to go into a grocery store, but if my family has rocks thrown at them coming out of work after doing an overnight overtime shift, that's just media hysteria.

I notice, you still haven't answered the question.

[altiplano]

There are a lot of good regular people just trying to live their lives. Stop buying the hysteria over a few idiots that make the news.

I see your point. It's the end of the world if you have to put on a mask to go into a grocery store, but if my family has rocks thrown at them coming out of work after doing an overnight overtime shift, that's just media hysteria.

I notice, you still haven't answered the question.

You're obviously hysterical. You are conflating ideas.

Do you think everyone that hasn't been vaccinated is throwing rocks at you? Which hospitals had rocks thrown at them... I know Trudeau did, apparently it was pebbles and other debris, is that what you meant?

I'll say it again, you treat unvaccinated people as a monolith. It's wrong to discriminate against the many because what you heard about a few.

[cdnavater]

And yet altiplano and those with him are choosing to trumpet their course of action as the right one? Why? What is their solution to combatting Covid?

I am not trumpeting anything or telling anyone to do anything other than what they think is best for them. In fact you are the one trumpeting and pushing your beliefs on others.

The way out IMO is protect the vulnerable, protect yourself, be smart, be safe, move on with your life.

Why do you think people that have recovered from covid should be mandatory vaccinated? When in fact we know they have better immunity than those vaccinated.

Why do you think that alternatives like testing are not effective? When in fact it is more effective to test everyone vaccinated or not as we all now know, or should know, that anyone can carry covid and testing is the best way to isolate transmission.

With a vaccine developed for the original virus, immunity waning after a few months, and an ever adapting list of variants that these vaccines are even less effective against, what do you see as a path forward? More boosters of the same juice?

You shrug off human rights like they're yesterday's ideals. Where do you draw the new line on what government, corporate interests, or other people can force you to do that is against the old order of rights?

Do you acknowledge the unprecedented number of vaccine injuries being incurred?

Given that our employers have been telling us, and the public, and government for over a year and half that flying is safe, that our workplace is safe, that we are safe, is that no longer the case? Was that a lie? Isn't it possible that other interests are in place? Advertising vaccinated workers for example? They certainly informed the press right away that they were moving ahead with it quite quickly, even absent a government directive.

Altiplano,
The problem with your idea of the way forward is human nature, Alberta being a prime example. People left to decide for themselves seem to go the extreme, obviously the only way to protect us from ourselves is government imposed restrictions.
I’m a reasonable person, I have been fully vaccinated and I still won’t attend a full house sporting event or go to a bar or etc…
I’m also very tired of the protect the vulnerable mentality, define the vulnerable, is it the old, is it people with higher risk factors or co-morbidity? How do you propose doing this? In order to be deemed non vulnerable, your doctor must attest to this, good luck with that! Or, do we get to decide if we are non vulnerable? See above, human nature, the same people who are against getting the vaccine will absolutely consider themselves safe!
I encountered a husband and wife recently, who were against getting vaccinated, the wife was morbidly obese, recovering from Cancer and her reason for not getting vaccinated was her last round of chemotherapy knocked her on her ass, it was well over a year ago but she says she will not put anything foreign in her body as she pours herself a whiskey.
I have no doubt she will die if she gets severe Covid, her husband won’t get it because it’s all a lie, the hospitals are not full, the numbers are being manipulated, etc.., I left the birthday party about 5 minutes after learning these two were unvaxxed. I thought I was at a party with only vaccinated, by the way, party is a stretch, it was 10 people prior to their arrival.
These are the people who need protection from themselves.
I also can’t help but notice, you refuse to answer whether or not you will be on LOA come November, but you are also not very vocal about the atrocity of being out of work. My conclusion is it is likely you got your first shot and are hoping for a change of government to put an end to it.
I predict, it won’t matter, Air Canada is a private company and can continue to require it as a condition of employment. Even if you managed to get legal action going, the length of time it will take to go through the courts will make it all moot.
Good luck

[imjustlurking]

Grow up.

Are you vaccinated? If not, do you plan on getting the jab?

[dialdriver]

Grow up.

Are you vaccinated? If not, do you plan on getting the jab?

B.C. is in a ‘pandemic of the unvaccinated,’ latest modelling numbers show

https://globalnews.ca/news/8155095/bc-m ... 21-step-4/

[737Maximilian]

Altiplano, you must understand the frustration here. Our country is now entering into the depths of the fourth wave. Alberta is going into a state of emergency. Their nursing union is requesting military assistance.

The most disheartening part of all this is that it could've been avoided if we had higher vaccination rates. Vaccines have been proven to be safe, effective, and beneficial in in reducing both the transmissibility and the severity of the disease. These two functions are linked. We need to reduce the severity to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed, and we need to reduce the transmissibility to get the reproductive rate below 1 (closer to 0.5 would be ideal). If the disease continues to reproduce at higher levels, it introduces the chance of mutations, which might set us back months or even years.

You may feel yourself safe by following your own personal health measures, but the reality is this is a highly infectious disease, and you only need to get unlucky once. There have been an untold number of cases of young and healthy individuals being hospitalized due to COVID, especially with the delta variant. Don't think that you can't be one of them - get vaccinated.

As a result of the emergency, Alberta is now having to delay cancer treatments for children there. What this means is that the unvaccinated are almost entirely to blame for the prolonged suffering of deeply ill children. If you can't understand the anger, then I'm not sure what to say.

[ALPApolicy]

I am not trumpeting anything or telling anyone to do anything other than what they think is best for them. In fact you are the one trumpeting and pushing your beliefs on others.

The way out IMO is protect the vulnerable, protect yourself, be smart, be safe, move on with your life. RESPONSE: That seems very general. Albertans just had an experiment with protecting themselves and being smart and being safe and it clearly backfired, with consequences for all of their citizens. There are times when ONLY government can do what is necessary to protect everyone.

Why do you think people that have recovered from covid should be mandatory vaccinated? When in fact we know they have better immunity than those vaccinated. RESPONSE: Is this actually a fact? See August 2021 study.

Why do you think that alternatives like testing are not effective? RESPONSE: Effective at what?
I believe that vaccination is the best protection and the best method against transmission of the disease. Testing, in addition to being time-consuming, is a means of detecting the disease AFTER transmission has occurred. My company, for instance, has chosen to adopt a policy for people entering the HQ building to require full vaccination after October 31st, and will not be testing, at this point. Also, testing is not practical for most small businesses. A vaccine passport would be much more practical for those businesses choosing to provide a layer of protection beyond masks. When in fact it is more effective to test everyone vaccinated or not as we all now know, or should know, that anyone can carry covid and testing is the best way to isolate transmission. RESPONSE: I do not agree with your position here. Testing is ONE means of "isolating" transmission. Social distancing, masking, limiting large gatherings, and vaccinations are all means of limiting transmission. As is natural immunity, which requires getting the disease first and is not complete protection against a disease that mutates.
With a vaccine developed for the original virus, immunity waning after a few months, and an ever adapting list of variants that these vaccines are even less effective against, what do you see as a path forward? More boosters of the same juice? RESPONSE: I believe that scientists will continue to work on vaccines and that the current list of vaccines still provides the best means of protection. Boosters, I imagine, will be developed that address waning protection.



You shrug off human rights like they're yesterday's ideals. Where do you draw the new line on what government, corporate interests, or other people can force you to do that is against the old order of rights? I think the same argument was likely used by those opposed to conscription during WWII and against involuntary taxation. I have to admit that I am not a freedom or individual rights absolutist. If we are to all function in a community of individuals, I believe that there are times when the needs of the many will outweigh the needs of the few (or the one...). We all need to escape the cycle of outbreaks and lockdowns and reimposition of restrictions.

Do you acknowledge the unprecedented number of vaccine injuries being incurred? RESPONSE: I trust that the various medical and governmental agencies are doing what is ethically in the best interests of their constituents. I suppose I could be cynical and conspiratorial on this point. I choose not to be.

Given that our employers have been telling us, and the public, and government for over a year and half that flying is safe, that our workplace is safe, that we are safe, is that no longer the case? Was that a lie? RESPONSE: The government will be mandating the vaccination requirement shortly (assuming a Liberal party win) so companies have no choice. Additionally, the word "safe" isn't absolute. Also, a fully vaccinated workforce is a good thing for society, in my opinion. You may have a different one. Isn't it possible that other interests are in place? Advertising vaccinated workers for example? RESPONSE: I don't have time nor interest to pursue the conspiracy theories. It is my position that the government and our industry are both just trying to get past the pandemic. They certainly informed the press right away that they were moving ahead with it quite quickly, even absent a government directive.

[imjustlurking]

Given that our employers have been telling us, and the public, and government for over a year and half that flying is safe, that our workplace is safe, that we are safe, is that no longer the case? Was that a lie? RESPONSE: The government will be mandating the vaccination requirement shortly (assuming a Liberal party win) so companies have no choice. Additionally, the word "safe" isn't absolute. Also, a fully vaccinated workforce is a good thing for society, in my opinion. You may have a different one.

The mandate will continue whether the Liberals win a minority or the Conservatives win a minority.

There's enough support left of the Liberals to pass the bill in some form.

Either way, your responses will be blown off by Altiplano because he's right and you're wrong.

[goldeneagle]

The mandate will continue whether the Liberals win a minority or the Conservatives win a minority.

The results of today's election will be irrelavent. Today the USA announced sweeping changes to entry requirements coming. A little birdie was whispering in my ear an hour ago, said when final draft is released the sections about special allowances for flight crews will be conspicuously missing. It wont matter if you are sitting in the front or the back of the airplane, entry requirements will be the same.

[goldeneagle]

Which hospitals had rocks thrown at them...

The ones with protests out front from that I know of definitively because I know folks that work in them.

Campbell River
Courtenay
Nanaimo
Victoria
St Pauls.

All of them experienced verbal abuse along with some pushing and shoving. At least two that I know of where folks were throwing things.

I'll say it again, you treat unvaccinated people as a monolith. It's wrong to discriminate against the many because what you heard about a few.

One needs only look at the hospital admission numbers to understand what's happening. 70% of the population has stepped up to the vaccination table, 30% have not. 85% of hospital admissions for covid are from that 30% of the population. Of those in the vaccinated population who are in hospital with covid symptoms and diagnosis, the majority have other health issues as well. Of the unvaxxed population, only a minority in hospital have other health issues.

There is some very simple to understand math one can do to grok this.

70 * x = 0.15
30 * y = 0.85

x = 0.002
y = 0.020

Note the clear factor of 10 difference. That is not a small anomaly, that is a very clear and distinct 'signal' from the data. The unvaxxed are 10 times as likely to end up in the hospital with severe covid issues. And contrary to the mantra you seem to be pushing, the vax program is NOT about preventing folks from getting covid at all. The program is about reducing hospital admissions to the point those facilities can handle the influx of patients, a detail you obviously refuse to acknowledge. A factor of 10 reductions in admissions from that 30% would accomplish this goal, and once again free up space in the system for granny to have her hip replaced, or maybe have a spot available for you in the ICU if you end up in a bad car accident.

So yes, we do consider unvaccinated folks as a monolith, and the statistics bear out why. I really dont care if your reasons for not getting a jab are because you are scared of needles, or you worry about a microchip, or what other fanciful excuse you want to make for it. The bottom line is this, as a group the unvaccinated are responsible for more hospital admissions by a factor of 10, and it's impacting the ability of the rest of the population to access what used to be considered normal everyday and routine health care procedures.

This country has a problem right now, and hundreds of your compatriots are unemployed because of it. You can choose to be part of the solution, or be part of the problem, thats your choice.

[altiplano]

Wow, you are really whipped up into your tribalism, and I don't have much faith in the extent of all you purport to have taken place.

Closed minded and intolerant of different perspectives.

[dialdriver]

Wow, you are really whipped up into your tribalism, and I don't have much faith in the extent of all you purport to have taken place.

Closed minded and intolerant of different perspectives.

Any effort to present facts to you is persistently met with belligerence and personal attacks.

[imjustlurking]

Wow, you are really whipped up into your tribalism, and I don't have much faith in the extent of all you purport to have taken place.

Closed minded and intolerant of different perspectives.

Are you vaccinated? Do you plan on getting the jab?

[Hangry]

I know it’s increasingly easy to “own” the idiots at this point but why even engage. At this point it’s an incredible self-own. Just let it happen and let his posts age. Be done with it. Time will sort everything.

[ikarus]

Make no mistake there is a lot of pressure placed unjustly on a lot of good people who haven't done anything wrong.

Last week we had ignorant protesters standing in front of the hospital throwing rocks at folks coming off shift, hollering about how they want 'medical freedom'. We've had a car keyed in the hospital parking lot and know some of the health care workers that have had death threats over the last year.

I'm really not surprised you consider that kind of behavior as 'have done nothing wrong' and those are 'good people'.

But you didn't answer the question. Do you stand by the drivel you are posting non stop ? Or will you still be flying for AC after Nov 1 ? It's really easy to 'talk the talk', but we want to know if you have what it takes to 'walk the walk'.

Too bad your media doesn't let you see all those police officers, firefighters and medical staff protesting against the mandate downtown YYZ and YYC. They must be all FOX subscribers and useless critters to our society since they dare voice their own opinion publicly.

[ikarus]

Altiplano, you must understand the frustration here. Our country is now entering into the depths of the fourth wave. Alberta is going into a state of emergency. Their nursing union is requesting military assistance.

The most disheartening part of all this is that it could've been avoided if we had higher vaccination rates. Vaccines have been proven to be safe, effective, and beneficial in in reducing both the transmissibility and the severity of the disease. These two functions are linked. We need to reduce the severity to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed, and we need to reduce the transmissibility to get the reproductive rate below 1 (closer to 0.5 would be ideal). If the disease continues to reproduce at higher levels, it introduces the chance of mutations, which might set us back months or even years.

You may feel yourself safe by following your own personal health measures, but the reality is this is a highly infectious disease, and you only need to get unlucky once. There have been an untold number of cases of young and healthy individuals being hospitalized due to COVID, especially with the delta variant. Don't think that you can't be one of them - get vaccinated.

As a result of the emergency, Alberta is now having to delay cancer treatments for children there. What this means is that the unvaccinated are almost entirely to blame for the prolonged suffering of deeply ill children. If you can't understand the anger, then I'm not sure what to say.

I am currently with family and many relatives and friends who are living in a European country. They ARE going through a 4th wave at the moment...7,000 + cases per day. One fifth of total population of Canada...and you know what, life goes on. People go to concerts, weddings, funerals, kids are back to school. Vaccinated barely 50% of their population.

[Counterpoint]

Wow, you are really whipped up into your tribalism, and I don't have much faith in the extent of all you purport to have taken place.

Closed minded and intolerant of different perspectives.

Are you sure you’re following your own mantra ? What do you mean by not having much faith of all of what goldeneagle purports ? Can you be more specific ?

You also seem to be questioning Public Health officials as they navigate the moving target as some form of Freedom experiment. What exactly is your counterpoint to all the full and wide ranging evidence that this 4th wave isn’t a pandemic of the unvaxed ?

You’ve already admitted to being a “disagreeable non-conformist” - is that playing to a superficial opinion that may be masking a real fear of the vaccination or immunization ?

This isn’t an attack on you or the unvaxed, but it is a genuine concern that you are ignoring Public Heath recommendations.