Pilots For Change - Overview of Pilot Wages Ep#1

[loudmouth]

One of many videos in the pipeline so I've heard.

I hope this helps people WAKE UP and realize we are not the NHL of airlines everyone loves to pretend we are. We have a lot of work to do. I'm up for the challenge and ready to take the fight to AC Management, are you?

https://youtu.be/R_NqXerjTIU

[Fanblade]

Well done.

But rather depressing as well.

After watching maybe it should have been posted under the Mathemagician thread.

But seriously. Very well done.

Looking forward to the next one

[RippleRock]

You can lay the blame at the feet of the TA1 negotiators back in 2011, and their "27" backers. Count how many were in FO or RP positions.

They "strip mined" the junior Membership, and those not yet on the property. It was an outright offence to anyone who once believed in unity. It was also an outright assault on the value of the junior Memberships contribution to flight deck operation. This disregard for the junior Members was unprecedented in AC pilot union history.

It's like leaving a campsite in ruin with trash and beer bottles everywhere with the excuse that the next camper isn't there yet. They will be soon, and they're gonna be pissed.

The junior Membership --should be pissed-- and take the reins. Though I voted "no", I am prepared to make amends.

[loudmouth]

And to this day the jr membership is still being disregarded. Vacation bybacks, Sr pilots doing 100+ a month while furloughed pilots on the street among other things. There is no unity here.

[RippleRock]

P4C.......kick ACPA to the curb.

They don't represent you.

[Stu Pidasso]

I am not a fan of the P4C crowd, mostly because of (some) of the players involved. However, credit where credit is due on these videos, it is no surprise to anyone who has been paying attention.

I think the part a number of junior Pilots are missing is that TA1 was voted down - by a lot of senior Pilots. The ACPA players that brought us that disaster are largely retired or in Witness Protection (Flt Ops Management.) The ones in Management are not going anywhere, the P4C team thinks they can wave a magic wand and fix this are kidding themselves.

Another piece missing is prior to the Airline world ending it was 12 months to left seat of the 320. So your hate-on for the senior crowd, those that took 16 years for a 320 left seat, is somewhat miss directed. FO and RP wages definitely need fixing but advancement was at record levels.

We have Pilots that believe it is their god given right to be a RP and work 9 days/month, 16 days of domestic flying is below their dignity. The senior guys (and gals) you hate-on flew 16 days/month for decades and didn't whine about it.

That said I want ACPA burned to the ground and ALPA on the property. A hard push for the US Border opened to Canadian Pilots, four years of Pilots earning less than the FA bringing you your coffee and the rampie loading the baggage is an outrage.

[Fanblade]

I am not a fan of the P4C crowd, mostly because of (some) of the players involved. However, credit where credit is due on these videos, it is no surprise to anyone who has been paying attention.

I think the part a number of junior Pilots are missing is that TA1 was voted down - by a lot of senior Pilots. The ACPA players that brought us that disaster are largely retired or in Witness Protection (Flt Ops Management.) The ones in Management are not going anywhere, the P4C team thinks they can wave a magic wand and fix this are kidding themselves.

Another piece missing is prior to the Airline world ending it was 12 months to left seat of the 320. So your hate-on for the senior crowd, those that took 16 years for a 320 left seat, is somewhat miss directed. FO and RP wages definitely need fixing but advancement was at record levels.

We have Pilots that believe it is their god given right to be a RP and work 9 days/month, 16 days of domestic flying is below their dignity. The senior guys (and gals) you hate-on flew 16 days/month for decades and didn't whine about it.

That said I want ACPA burned to the ground and ALPA on the property. A hard push for the US Border opened to Canadian Pilots, four years of Pilots earning less than the FA bringing you your coffee and the rampie loading the baggage is an outrage.

That is true. It wasn’t the membership that sold out the future. It was ACPA.

“We don’t negotiate for the unborn” was the response when asked why they brought us a deal that sold out the future.

The membership did vote down TA1. Arbitration then imposed what ACPA had negotiated.

ACPA excusers will at times try to claim that the contract was imposed during Arbitration. Trying to paint ACPA as the victim.

Conveniently leaving out the part about ACPA freely negotiating TA1 in the first place.

ACPA then went through a governance review to avoid another TA1 fiasco.

ACPA didn’t follow through on some of the key items recommended in the governance review.

A decade after TA1 we are right back at square one. A few people doing whatever they want during negotiations. One of them running in this election.

Now we have Cargo and best fit.

[rudder]

No matter what, simply ‘snapping fingers’ will not reinstate economic, scope, or lifestyle losses from CCAA and the arbitrated contract debacle.

And for those that think strike will ever be a legitimate bargaining tool again they are not paying attention to history.

So all that remains is opportunistic leverage. That can come during good times, and it can even come during bad times (COVID). Problem is that ACPA squandered this leverage and made a bad situation worse.

Good luck. Representation choices matter. That applies to both individuals and institutions.

[Counterpoint]

Fan blade

“ The membership did vote down TA1. Arbitration then imposed what ACPA had negotiated.”

Not entirely true. Those pay examples in the movie confuse the % of Captain Pay and rates that TA1 (voted down) provided. What is lost was the other ingredient that nobody wanted.

[Curiousflyer]

If ACPA and the P4C group are going to target FO and RP wage increases in the 2023 contract. That will be met with massive opposition from the company. There is a huge cohort of Air Canada pilots that are currently on flat pay, by 2023 those pilots will have doubled their salary. This already represents a huge additional cost to the company with the current contract, so trying to get gains here will be even harder.
At this point, I think it's more likely ACPA will negotiate less wages for FO's and RP's while picking up some lifestyle gains.

[Stu Pidasso]

It is a sad commentary how much ground Pilots have lost in this country. When I started there was no such thing as an Air Traffic Controller out earning an Airline Captain, now they out earn 90% of Airline Pilots. Certainly working for a "not for profit" (what a joke) outfit like Nav Canada helps, times are tough simply - up your fees.

Unlike a private sector Airline that has to deal, in real time, with the world events.

Then we have witnessed the antics of the Custom Clerks, another group of essential workers unable to strike. ATC and Customs are two occupations that have the same prerequisites of an Airline Flight Attendant - ZERO. Yet they have done extremely well at increasing their compensation, keeping an indexed DB Pension Plan.

While Pilots are earning less than a TTC Bus Driver.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

ATC and Customs are two occupations that have the same prerequisites of an Airline Flight Attendant - ZERO.

Keep in mind that you don't need any pre-requisites to be an airline pilot either aside from earning your licenses, same as a controller. Both only really require a high school education. I've flown with lots of airline Captains with no post-secondary.

I did ATC training for 3 years, and I can say it was definitely harder than learning to fly.

[Stu Pidasso]

Big difference - Pilot training and Education is done at your own expense. Followed by surviving the first few flying jobs, often in dangerous work environments. Getting to a Major Airline has numerous prerequisites, a substantial financial commitment and many years of poverty wages.

Conversely, apply to ATC (with zero prerequisites) and get trained. I understand there is a small cost now for initial training but it is pennies compared to a program like Mount Royal or Seneca.

AND you are paid extremely well right away.

[McKinley]

Big difference - Pilot training and Education is done at your own expense. Followed by surviving the first few flying jobs, often in dangerous work environments. Getting to a Major Airline has numerous prerequisites, a substantial financial commitment and many years of poverty wages.

Conversely, apply to ATC (with zero prerequisites) and get trained. I understand there is a small cost now for initial training but it is pennies compared to a program like Mount Royal or Seneca.

AND you are paid extremely well right away.

You are saying what is inconveniently true for people who make the aforementioned argument. ( ATC training is elitist)