Maybe some day this issue will be put to rest

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/cala/doc/2 ... ultIndex=4


TL;DR

He lost

[Fanblade]

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/cala/doc/2 ... ultIndex=4


TL;DR

He lost

I am not someone who wants to work past 65. But you should pay close attention as to why the individual lost. They lost only because the US is 65. If that changes we will move with it.

In a way he set the threshold for when age 65 increases. It’s never going to get put to rest. There will be constant upward pressure on that age as society itself ages.

[imjustlurking]

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/cala/doc/2 ... ultIndex=4


TL;DR

He lost

I am not someone who wants to work past 65. But you should pay close attention as to why the individual lost. They lost only because the US is 65. If that changes we will move with it.

In a way he set the threshold for when age 65 increases. It’s never going to get put to rest. There will be constant upward pressure on that age as society itself ages.

He was offered alternative positions in the company. If he was offered near the top of the dispatch salary range to be closer to what he was making as a RP, I see no reason why he should refuse it.

[Fanblade]

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/cala/doc/2 ... ultIndex=4


TL;DR

He lost

I am not someone who wants to work past 65. But you should pay close attention as to why the individual lost. They lost only because the US is 65. If that changes we will move with it.

In a way he set the threshold for when age 65 increases. It’s never going to get put to rest. There will be constant upward pressure on that age as society itself ages.

He was offered alternative positions in the company. If he was offered near the top of the dispatch salary range to be closer to what he was making as a RP, I see no reason why he should refuse it.

That’s not the point. Your speaking about reasonable accommodation. In this case offering a different job within the company.

Canada has no age limit. The only reason Air Canada can force people to retire at 65 is because of US rules and the fact that leaving YYZ we cross the boarder a lot. Even domestically. Westjet out of YYC has pilots working past 65 because they can accommodate it out of YYC.

If the US moves to 67 we will be 67 simultaneously.

[Raymond Hall]

Well, isn't that an irony!

ACPA supporting a pilot opposing mandatory retirement at age 65 while it is still before the Tribunal arguing out of the other side of its mouth opposing the pilots who are still waiting for a hearing to resolve their complaints about forced mandatory retirement at age 60, prior to the repeal of the exemption under the Canadian Human Rights Act in 2012!

Odd that I was not even informed that this grievance was filed, let alone taken to arbitration.

Having said that, why do you think that none of my clients ever filed a complaint about the age 65 restriction, given the fact that the FAA does not recognize the licences of airline pilots at or over age 65? There are better and faster ways to lose money than by litigating a losing case, but this arbitration was definitely in that category.

[a220hereicome]

There are better and faster ways to lose money than by litigating a losing case, but this arbitration was definitely in that category.

Raymond.

Litigating a losing case, really? I think you've got that market cornered.

Almost ten years on, and your batting average is...

[Inverted2]

Life is short. I know lots of retired guys who don’t live too long past 65 without significant health issues. Let’s face it, this job isn’t good for your health especially when you’re older. (Radiation exposure, long days, erratic sleep schedules etc.)

Does that mean you can get on the disability benefits till you die? I’d like to see the insurance company premiums if this ever goes into effect.

[Raymond Hall]

Almost ten years on, and your batting average is...

Just fine, thank you. After not almost ten years on, but after over 15 years on. I first appeared before the Tribunal in June, 2006, on this matter.

The fact that arbitrators followed my early wins and reinstated hundreds of non-pilot employees at Air Canada (F/A's, mechanics, baggage agents, sales agents) who had already been terminated on the basis of age, the fact that Air Canada did not re-terminate them after our cases were (temporarily) reversed, the fact that lawmakers in Parliament cited our Charter of Rights litigation decisions as reason for actually ending mandatory retirement in the federal jurisdiction in Canada, the fact that the Tribunal did not dismiss my more recent clients' continuing complaints against wrongful dismissal....shows that there are many different interpretations of one's "batting average." As Yogi Berra so succinctly stated, "It ain't over 'till its over."

And it's not all about law. Making such a difference in so many people's lives, helping professional people to continue engaging in the work that they love, absent discrimination on the basis of any arbitrary age-based restriction, and giving them the right to choose when they move on...doesn't go unnoticed or unrewarded, at least in sentiment. That is indeed part of the 'batting average' of my life. In their lives? Likely 1,000!

What would you have said to Galileo after he was excommunicated for publishing his findings of scientific fact that ran counter to the conventional wisdom and the religious establishment of the time? What you have said to Copernicus who suffered roughly the same fate? "Give up?" "Get with the program?" "You are wasting your time"? Or, "Your batting average is...?"

The fact that ACPA has now formally reversed its position in court on not only this issue but on another key issue that I was the first and only person to litigate before the Commission and the Tribunal, (disability (GDIP) compensation elimination at age 60), indicates that things change and viewpoints often differ. And I give the union credit for changing, notwithstanding the adverse impact that its previous position has had on those members whom I represented, who were perhaps too early to benefit from corrected legal thinking.

How many of the members of the Age 60 Legal Support Committee (who represented the ACPA membership against my clients) who so adamantly opposed terminating the restriction on mandatory retirement at age 60, when given the legal option of working past age 60 themselves, actually walked out at age 60, based upon their integrity of conviction? So far as I have heard, none. Integrity, indeed.

As the saying goes, the wheels of justice turn slowly. Edison is known for saying that his greatest invention was not the light bulb, but rather the process of overcoming what others perceived as 'failures.' He regarded failures as 'successes' in determining and eliminating the processes that didn't work.

Stay tuned.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

Almost ten years on, and your batting average is...

Just fine, thank you. The fact that arbitrators that followed my early wins and reinstated thousands of non-pilot employees terminated on the basis of age, the fact that lawmakers in Parliament cited on our litigation successes and actually ended mandatory retirement in the federal jurisdiction in Canada, the fact that the Tribunal did not dismiss my more recent clients' continuing complaints against wrongful dismissal....shows that, as Yogi Berra so succinctly stated, "It over 'till its over."

What would you have said to Galileo after he was excommunicated for postulating scientific fact that ran counter to the conventional wisdom and the religious establishment of the time? What you have said to Copernicus who suffered roughly the same fate? "Give up?" "Get with the program?"

The fact that ACPA has now reversed in court on not only this issue but on another key issue that I first brought before the Commission and the Tribunal (disability compensation restrictions, based on age), indicates that things change and viewpoints often differ. And I give the union credit, notwithstanding the adverse impact that that its previous position has had on those members who I represented.

How many of the member of the Age 60 Committee, who represented that position litigating against my clients and who so adamantly opposed terminating the restriction on mandatory retirement at age 60, when given the legal option of working past age 60, actually walked out at age 60, based upon their integrity of conviction? None?

Stay tuned. As the saying goes, the wheels of justice turn slowly. Edison is known for saying that his greatest invention was not the invention of the light bulb, but rather the process of overcoming what others perceived as "failures." He regarded them rather as "successes" in determining and eliminating the processes that didn't work.

Who knew it was so easy to get under your skin.

I have no respect for pigs at the trough trying to milk an extra few years on the payroll. Take your six figure pension and go enjoy your life.

[Raymond Hall]

I have no respect for pigs at the trough trying to milk an extra few years on the payroll. Take your six figure pension and go enjoy your life.

And you expect me to respond to this?

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

I have no respect for pigs at the trough trying to milk an extra few years on the payroll. Take your six figure pension and go enjoy your life.

And you expect me to respond to this?

And yet you did.

[imjustlurking]

I have no respect for pigs at the trough trying to milk an extra few years on the payroll. Take your six figure pension and go enjoy your life.

That is quite the broad brush you are painting with.

Your comment screams "I DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF!"

[Rooster69]

On second thought, I will just stay out of it. No point in slagging or negativity.


Be happy everyone!

[Raymond Hall]

I have no respect for pigs at the trough trying to milk an extra few years on the payroll. Take your six figure pension and go enjoy your life.

ad ho·mi·nem
/ˌad ˈhämənəm/
adjective
1. (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"vicious ad hominem attacks"
adverb
1. 1.
in a way that is directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"these points come from some of our best information sources, who realize they'll be attacked ad hominem"
2. 2.
in a way that relates to or is associated with a particular person.
"the office was created ad hominem for Fenton"

... otherwise known as 'the weakest form of argument' or alternatively, 'the argument made when reason fails...'

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

I have no respect for pigs at the trough trying to milk an extra few years on the payroll. Take your six figure pension and go enjoy your life.

That is quite the broad brush you are painting with.

Your comment screams "I DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF!"

Actually what it says is I don't care about people trying to keep their jobs after 65 and effecting the career progression of 4000 pilots below them. Not just myself.

But keep trying.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

I have no respect for pigs at the trough trying to milk an extra few years on the payroll. Take your six figure pension and go enjoy your life.

ad ho·mi·nem
/ˌad ˈhämənəm/
adjective
1. (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"vicious ad hominem attacks"
adverb
1. 1.
in a way that is directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
"these points come from some of our best information sources, who realize they'll be attacked ad hominem"
2. 2.
in a way that relates to or is associated with a particular person.
"the office was created ad hominem for Fenton"

... otherwise known as 'the weakest form of argument' or alternatively, 'the argument made when reason fails...'

Hey look you replied again

Did I strike a nerve miwster lawwwyer?

[tbaylx]

I have no respect for pigs at the trough trying to milk an extra few years on the payroll. Take your six figure pension and go enjoy your life.

That is quite the broad brush you are painting with.

Your comment screams "I DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF!"

Actually what it says is I don't care about people trying to keep their jobs after 65 and effecting the career progression of 4000 pilots below them. Not just myself.

But keep trying.

Who are you to tell someone when to stop working? You or anyone else aren't' entitled to another pilot's job at any time and certainly not because you think they've made enough money. By that logic lets make everyone over 50 retire so we can hire even more pilots. Your sense of entitlement is spectacular.

[Inverted2]

That is quite the broad brush you are painting with.

Your comment screams "I DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF!"

Actually what it says is I don't care about people trying to keep their jobs after 65 and effecting the career progression of 4000 pilots below them. Not just myself.

But keep trying.

Who are you to tell someone when to stop working? You or anyone else aren't' entitled to another pilot's job at any time and certainly not because you think they've made enough money. By that logic lets make everyone over 50 retire so we can hire even more pilots. Your sense of entitlement is spectacular.

You should have that van paid off by the time you’re 72.

[imjustlurking]

I have no respect for pigs at the trough trying to milk an extra few years on the payroll. Take your six figure pension and go enjoy your life.

That is quite the broad brush you are painting with.

Your comment screams "I DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF!"

Actually what it says is I don't care about people trying to keep their jobs after 65 and effecting the career progression of 4000 pilots below them. Not just myself.

But keep trying.

How does a statistical minority of pilots affect the career progression of pilots below them in any meaningful way? Seriously? The person who filed the greivance that this entire thread started from was an RP.

[asleep_at_the_yoke]

That is quite the broad brush you are painting with.

Your comment screams "I DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF!"

Actually what it says is I don't care about people trying to keep their jobs after 65 and effecting the career progression of 4000 pilots below them. Not just myself.

But keep trying.

How does a statistical minority of pilots affect the career progression of pilots below them in any meaningful way? Seriously? The person who filed the greivance that this entire thread started from was an RP.

Don't kid yourself.

One person wins and boom all of a sudden hundreds of Sr WB skippers end up staying till 67.