NotDirty! wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:53 am
I think maybe my use of the term “Fixed It For You” was poorly understood. I was not trying to dispute Gen. Postmaster’s message, simply pointing to the absurdity of our lack of choice in leadership candidates. I changed the one word in his quote from “elected” to “acclaimed”, made it bold and italic to stand out better, and wrote “FIFY” which is internetese for “Fixed It For You”. I suppose I could have just left his quote unedited, and written “you spelled ‘acclaimed’ wrong”, maybe that would have caused less confusion.
Anyways, I think we probably agree on a lot of things, sorry for any misunderstanding.
I knew exactly what you meant, don't worry.
Where'd RippleRock go? Took a sabbatical once his opinion went over like a lead balloon?
RippleRock wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:26 pm
Agree 100%, but we voted to endorse Rouge by 84%. There is nothing that subverted seniority or unity more than that, and I'm hoping there never will be.
Don't throw the rouge fallacy in to this. We aren't taking about rouge here, but we can on a separate post. We are talking about VO and the damage it does to us.
Doing a bit of VO to take up some of the slack while we recover from Covid doesn't even come close. This is an isolated scenario. And, NO, I don't think doing VO for purposeful under-crewing should be allowed, nor should it be allowed during legal job action. It's our Unions job to enforce and correct things like this.
It isn't isolated. This is modus operandi at this company, has been for a long time. Whether good times or bad times it hurts us all. But right now, exponentially so for furloughed members. Our union representatives and structural components have shown a complete ineptitude on most matters. They are incompetent. It falls to us, the membership - we are the union - to say to each other and hold each other to account for what is acceptable behaviour in a labour movement. Don't pull a cop out and say it's the union's job to enforce and correct, we are the union.
Part of my point is that we have "dropped the ball" on unity long ago. Members continually vote YES whenever our MEC supports an initiative. Every time. This has made for a disjointed, fractured group that is somewhat bitter and resentful. Lashing out at the Company for our own failings is wrong. It isn't the Company's fault that we are where we are, it's our Unions soft handed approach to protecting our contract. They are offering little to no guidance on this topic......that speaks volumes. If you want them to chime in, perhaps ask for their position. My bet the answer is crickets.
See above. It's a cop out to say we're past the critical point and there's no guidance from the union and we're fractured anyway so until that's all fixed it's the Wild West and I'll do whatever I want... We are the Union. We are the movement. I hold my "Brothers" to account on what is acceptable. VO while we make concessions? While we have guys on the street? While the company fake leverages us for more? While they slip it in deeper? What's wrong with you?
The Company is in a bit of a bind right now, helping out a bit shouldn't be condoned. Just keep it in perspective with regard to Covid recovery.
Bullshit. Do you really think you're doing some noble deed keeping it going, getting then out of a bind? Keep telling yourself that... maybe you'll believe it someday. Everyone knows VO is me me me... I'm at the trough.
FWIW, If people hate the concept of VO that much, and there isn't any instance where its acceptable, maybe it should be written out of our next contract entirely.
Absolutely. Hard cap on monthly hours to DBM. Draft/drop only for extra flying. Then we can focus on real wage gains across the board if people want to make more money.
RippleRock wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:26 pm
The Company is in a bit of a bind right now, helping out a bit shouldn't be condoned. Just keep it in perspective with regard to Covid recovery.
A little more perspective for you... From our colleagues South of the border whom we should be emulating...
As we prepare, it is essential to understand that there are two sides at the table. We work for an extremely profitable company, and our contract should reflect our contribution to the company’s success. Our Collective Bargaining Agreement becomes part of the business plan for the corporation, and they will seek to minimize cost and increase their own flexibility. Remember the following when we are inevitably tempted towards distraction during bargaining:
Management wants you to do more work for less pay and benefits.
There are only two sides.
Get some perspective. Really the F up.
Realize management's motivations in their planning.
Which side are you on?
It's high time every Air Canada Pilot came to the realization that "they" ie "the company" are not on your side.
RippleRock wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:26 pm
Agree 100%, but we voted to endorse Rouge by 84%. There is nothing that subverted seniority or unity more than that, and I'm hoping there never will be.
Don't throw the rouge fallacy in to this. We aren't taking about rouge here, but we can on a separate post. We are talking about VO and the damage it does to us.
Doing a bit of VO to take up some of the slack while we recover from Covid doesn't even come close. This is an isolated scenario. And, NO, I don't think doing VO for purposeful under-crewing should be allowed, nor should it be allowed during legal job action. It's our Unions job to enforce and correct things like this.
It isn't isolated. This is modus operandi at this company, has been for a long time. Whether good times or bad times it hurts us all. But right now, exponentially so for furloughed members. Our union representatives and structural components have shown a complete ineptitude on most matters. They are incompetent. It falls to us, the membership - we are the union - to say to each other and hold each other to account for what is acceptable behaviour in a labour movement. Don't pull a cop out and say it's the union's job to enforce and correct, we are the union.
Part of my point is that we have "dropped the ball" on unity long ago. Members continually vote YES whenever our MEC supports an initiative. Every time. This has made for a disjointed, fractured group that is somewhat bitter and resentful. Lashing out at the Company for our own failings is wrong. It isn't the Company's fault that we are where we are, it's our Unions soft handed approach to protecting our contract. They are offering little to no guidance on this topic......that speaks volumes. If you want them to chime in, perhaps ask for their position. My bet the answer is crickets.
See above. It's a cop out to say we're past the critical point and there's no guidance from the union and we're fractured anyway so until that's all fixed it's the Wild West and I'll do whatever I want... We are the Union. We are the movement. I hold my "Brothers" to account on what is acceptable. VO while we make concessions? While we have guys on the street? While the company fake leverages us for more? While they slip it in deeper? What's wrong with you?
The Company is in a bit of a bind right now, helping out a bit shouldn't be condoned. Just keep it in perspective with regard to Covid recovery.
Bullshit. Do you really think you're doing some noble deed keeping it going, getting then out of a bind? Keep telling yourself that... maybe you'll believe it someday. Everyone knows VO is me me me... I'm at the trough.
FWIW, If people hate the concept of VO that much, and there isn't any instance where its acceptable, maybe it should be written out of our next contract entirely.
Absolutely. Hard cap on monthly hours to DBM. Draft/drop only for extra flying. Then we can focus on real wage gains across the board if people want to make more money.
I have lost faith that the Membership will do anything to rectify past failings. ACPA remains, as does apathy. We are pointing our guns in slightly different directions. Mine is aimed solely on ACPA. They have taken every opportunity to fail us and have wholeheartedly embraced fracturing our solidarity.
If we had a decent contract, and actually enforced it, we wouldn't even be talking about this. Unfortunately, that's not reality.
Our Membership has made an apathetic choice to dwell in ACPA's concessionary world of working more to substitute failing WACON. That's not me, and clearly not you, but here we are.
RippleRock wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:26 pm
Agree 100%, but we voted to endorse Rouge by 84%. There is nothing that subverted seniority or unity more than that, and I'm hoping there never will be.
Don't throw the rouge fallacy in to this. We aren't taking about rouge here, but we can on a separate post. We are talking about VO and the damage it does to us.
Doing a bit of VO to take up some of the slack while we recover from Covid doesn't even come close. This is an isolated scenario. And, NO, I don't think doing VO for purposeful under-crewing should be allowed, nor should it be allowed during legal job action. It's our Unions job to enforce and correct things like this.
It isn't isolated. This is modus operandi at this company, has been for a long time. Whether good times or bad times it hurts us all. But right now, exponentially so for furloughed members. Our union representatives and structural components have shown a complete ineptitude on most matters. They are incompetent. It falls to us, the membership - we are the union - to say to each other and hold each other to account for what is acceptable behaviour in a labour movement. Don't pull a cop out and say it's the union's job to enforce and correct, we are the union.
Part of my point is that we have "dropped the ball" on unity long ago. Members continually vote YES whenever our MEC supports an initiative. Every time. This has made for a disjointed, fractured group that is somewhat bitter and resentful. Lashing out at the Company for our own failings is wrong. It isn't the Company's fault that we are where we are, it's our Unions soft handed approach to protecting our contract. They are offering little to no guidance on this topic......that speaks volumes. If you want them to chime in, perhaps ask for their position. My bet the answer is crickets.
See above. It's a cop out to say we're past the critical point and there's no guidance from the union and we're fractured anyway so until that's all fixed it's the Wild West and I'll do whatever I want... We are the Union. We are the movement. I hold my "Brothers" to account on what is acceptable. VO while we make concessions? While we have guys on the street? While the company fake leverages us for more? While they slip it in deeper? What's wrong with you?
The Company is in a bit of a bind right now, helping out a bit shouldn't be condoned. Just keep it in perspective with regard to Covid recovery.
Bullshit. Do you really think you're doing some noble deed keeping it going, getting then out of a bind? Keep telling yourself that... maybe you'll believe it someday. Everyone knows VO is me me me... I'm at the trough.
FWIW, If people hate the concept of VO that much, and there isn't any instance where its acceptable, maybe it should be written out of our next contract entirely.
Absolutely. Hard cap on monthly hours to DBM. Draft/drop only for extra flying. Then we can focus on real wage gains across the board if people want to make more money.
I have lost faith that the Membership will do anything to rectify past failings. ACPA remains, as does apathy. We are pointing our guns in slightly different directions. Mine is aimed solely on ACPA. They have taken every opportunity to fail us and have wholeheartedly embraced fracturing our solidarity.
If we had a decent contract, and actually enforced it, we wouldn't even be talking about this. Unfortunately, that's not reality.
Our Membership has made an apathetic choice to dwell in ACPA's concessionary world of working more to substitute failing WACON. That's not me, and clearly not you, but here we are.
Now what?
ACPA sucks, the membership (mostly) sucks, AC corporate overlords are dunking on us at will.
So why are you going along with it?
Stop feeding it.
Fly your block and say no every chance you get. When you realize the guy sitting next to you at work is at the trough don't be an enabler, tell him that's shortsighted bullshit.
I've agreed with almost everything you've ever posted. Thought someone was actually on the same wavelength.
At a 100% premium, VO is going to get done. They'll work down the list until its gone, if not they'll start back at the top.
Sounds like you've got everything figured out in your mind, but unless there's some form of revolution within the Membership, your solution will likely stay your thoughts.
Perhaps you'll go down as a martyr to your idealism. Few will know, fewer will care.
"Someone junior will just do it if I don't take it "
That's a cop out. Do you believe in advancing our position or not? So act like it.
At the very least it should go back to the top as draft/drop.
If membership should ever get back to that, that's a good deal for everyone except the company, hours go at premium, maybe more days off, and more people can pick up more hours at premium and maybe get more days off, and on and on down the list.
I get it, it's hard for some people to say "no" and I could sure use some extra money right now too... but that's exactly what they want.
Believe me I've pondered writing this whole group off and going in it for only myself, everyone else be damned, and of course nobody will know that I always say "no" - but I know, and I know my integrity is intact and I don't want them to keep beating us. Do you? Because you're kicking an own goal every time you say "yes" when you could have said "no." We're getting our asses handed to us over and over, do you want it to stop?
Labour : Management is an adversarial relationship by definition. We all need to start thinking that way and acting accordingly.
The change has to start from somewhere, we need to hold each other to account.
I heard a story that at Delta, on initial line indoc there's the "unofficial" portion where the Captains go over all the union related stuff including telling the new hires that no one takes overtime at 1.5x or 2x. It's an understanding that everyone passes until it goes to 3x. And while they might not benefit right now from overtime, in a few years they will and the payoff will be worth it.
Imagine if we had that kind of unity at AC! Instead of everyone, including Union Reps, at the overtime trough sucking up as much money as they selfishly can. Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.
pumpkinpatch wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:52 pm
I heard a story that at Delta, on initial line indoc there's the "unofficial" portion where the Captains go over all the union related stuff including telling the new hires that no one takes overtime at 1.5x or 2x. It's an understanding that everyone passes until it goes to 3x. And while they might not benefit right now from overtime, in a few years they will and the payoff will be worth it.
Imagine if we had that kind of unity at AC! Instead of everyone, including Union Reps, at the overtime trough sucking up as much money as they selfishly can. Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.
pumpkinpatch wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:52 pm
I heard a story that at Delta, on initial line indoc there's the "unofficial" portion where the Captains go over all the union related stuff including telling the new hires that no one takes overtime at 1.5x or 2x. It's an understanding that everyone passes until it goes to 3x. And while they might not benefit right now from overtime, in a few years they will and the payoff will be worth it.
Imagine if we had that kind of unity at AC! Instead of everyone, including Union Reps, at the overtime trough sucking up as much money as they selfishly can. Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.
Union Reps taking Overtime with furloughs?!
Dumpster Fire!
And then allowing major concessions; Cargo at a discount, and the return of Rouge with mainline reserve regs. There are no steps forward for the AC group, just concenssions.
pumpkinpatch wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:52 pm
Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.
Not, and unlikely to be, an AC pilot, so I don't have a dog in this fight.....but, what sort of fool works O/T at straight time? Really? Somebody needs a bar-of-soap-in-a-towel tune-up!
---------- ADS -----------
Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two!
pumpkinpatch wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:52 pm
I heard a story that at Delta, on initial line indoc there's the "unofficial" portion where the Captains go over all the union related stuff including telling the new hires that no one takes overtime at 1.5x or 2x. It's an understanding that everyone passes until it goes to 3x. And while they might not benefit right now from overtime, in a few years they will and the payoff will be worth it.
Imagine if we had that kind of unity at AC! Instead of everyone, including Union Reps, at the overtime trough sucking up as much money as they selfishly can. Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.
Rouge was pretty united in convincing most pilots not to list for VO (at 1.5x if I recall correctly), and only listing for draft (at 2.5x). Very few exceptions… and it worked well!
pumpkinpatch wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:52 pm
Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.
Not, and unlikely to be, an AC pilot, so I don't have a dog in this fight.....but, what sort of fool works O/T at straight time? Really? Somebody needs a bar-of-soap-in-a-towel tune-up!
Likely someone who is under block and is picking up extra shifts at regular pay on top of their MMG pay.
pumpkinpatch wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:52 pm
Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.
Not, and unlikely to be, an AC pilot, so I don't have a dog in this fight.....but, what sort of fool works O/T at straight time? Really? Somebody needs a bar-of-soap-in-a-towel tune-up!
Likely someone who is under block and is picking up extra shifts at regular pay on top of their MMG pay.
I don't think you have any understanding.
VO is/was straight pay until you're over 85 hours. Tons of guys crawling over one another to get it.
Not, and unlikely to be, an AC pilot, so I don't have a dog in this fight.....but, what sort of fool works O/T at straight time? Really? Somebody needs a bar-of-soap-in-a-towel tune-up!
Likely someone who is under block and is picking up extra shifts at regular pay on top of their MMG pay.
I don't think you have any understanding.
VO is/was straight pay until you're over 85 hours. Tons of guys crawling over one another to get it.
Once one is off flat pay(4 years unless you upgrade to Captain) the pay at Air Canada(for days worked) is close to the best in Canada. Yes it is shit compared to legacy Carriers in the US, but that is not our reality right now. So if you have tenure at AC, then straight pay for overtime on a day that you have nothing else to do may be lucrative. I’m not trying to justify it, just providing insight
hithere wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:04 pm
Once one is off flat pay(4 years unless you upgrade to Captain) the pay at Air Canada(for days worked) is close to the best in Canada. Yes it is shit compared to legacy Carriers in the US, but that is not our reality right now. So if you have tenure at AC, then straight pay for overtime on a day that you have nothing else to do may be lucrative. I’m not trying to justify it, just providing insight
Being the best in Canada is a pretty fucking low bar. Plus, it's not just about money. We have shitty work rules compared to WestJet and Jazz now. Money isn't the end all.
