Don't mean to be negative, just realistic. Having been a member of both, they are the same dinosaurs. I would very much like to see more unification however, the landscape and players will need to change somewhat. Hopefully Andy and Brian will be a step in the right direction.
You can't get down on someone like Exbengal for expressing his opinions. Afterall, if there had been unification during Picher, this whole discussion would be mute. I am not taking sides but getting pilots to agree on anything is next to impossible.
Oh man, this is worse than sleeping with a fat chick but here goes, I believe JS is correct. Man I feel dirty but he talks some good chit there.ACPA's mandate is the survival of ACPA ( the entity ) as is ALPA's. Don't expect much change, we are simply pawns in a game of chess.
http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA ... &Tabid=256
That is a good article but I am convinced that pilots could work for free and the airline would still be hurting.
It is not pilot salaries that make or break a business plan but when management needs money, it is the easiest place to get it, which begs the question, why?
I disagree. Anyone can be a professional. Professional means you do your best job every time not just when you feel like it. That’s a hobby.balls wrote:
Everyone likes to call themselves a profressional, but in fact are not by definition. Law, medicine, military, clergy, engineer. That's about it. The term 'professional' has lost it's meaning.
For Christ sakes idiot read the fu$KING POSTS, acpa JUST went infront ofTraf wrote:It is always somebody eles who is at fault. You know what exbengal, this is a tired old story." BLAH BLAH BLAH they did it to us blah blah blah, 243 blah blah blah picher blah blah blah you'll pay blah blah blah." As a Jazz pilot who is sitting back watching my pay get lower, management getting more aggressive and having to work more than I ever have, I wonder if it will ever stop."In order to accomplish this we need all pilot associations to come together in Canada"............Martin you can't be for real, what forward thinking, sounds to me like...........................CALPA, you my friend will be paying for what the oac's have done to aviation in this country for a long time. With special thanks to the 243's.
Guys like Dean, Pulley, Bauer,etc......have moved Canadian aviation back 50 years.
All of that means nothing to me and it never will. WHat does concern me is my future. Andy Wilson makes some very good and very realistic points. We are under attack as a proffession and trust me, this is only the begining.We may have won a small victory in getting the RJs and maybe even given ACPA a little sting in the ass at the same time but this vicotry will not come without a price. Georgian and CMA are breathing down our necks and I am sure the company would love to give them the same deal they gave us. Transfer bigger equipment down the line to lower paid pilots. What will we have to do keep the D8s if they try to move them? What are they worth to us?
I feel strongly that if there is not some kind of GS or association for all or most pilots inthis country, we will be constantly fighting to maintain our already destroyed collective agreements.
If you don't believe me, just look at your pay stub. We are now flying 75 seats (in reality 90 seats RJs) for less than we flew 36 seat D8s. SAD SAD SAD!!!
Your "he did it" attitude will only continue to fuel the fire and will ensure nothing will get done. Before you point te finger at who is at fault for the industry being what it is today, you might want to look in the mirror and ask yourself if you have done or are doing anything to help improve it.
Now I am going to sit back and wait fo rthe fireworks to begin.
Teplitsky and tried to reduce the Jazz seniority list by 40%....................and you blame me. Your a moron traf, keep up the butt licking.
And as far as pointing fingers, alot of us played by the rules in dealing with acpa, so if that means nothing to you, you never will get it.
Read your own post you bitter twisted old F*&k! Why do you think ACPA did that? It is a continuation of the whipsawing and fighting that has become the reality of our airline!!! With the current situation, everytime one of us goes into negots or before an arbitrator, I have to be looking over my shoulder wondering if it is back to the right seat, or maybe another pay cut. What you just described above is exactly the situation I would like to avoid in the future.For Christ sakes idiot read the fu$KING POSTS, acpa JUST went infront of
Teplitsky and tried to reduce the Jazz seniority list by 40%....................and you blame me. Your a moron traf, keep up the butt licking.
Let me ask you this mr. airline know-it-all genius. What happens if the company tries to move D8s to GGN/CMA? Do we fight it? DO we scope them? Do we just let them go? Tell me smartass, what is our move when faced with this problem?
You can't tell me that ACPA is currently doing anything that we wouldn't do faced with 25 hulls being passed down to the next group?! Don't even think about telling me otherwise! The fact is, when ACPA scopes, they are assholes, but when we do it, we are just protecting what is ours. Well, which way is it? I scope bad or necessary? Scope is a reality because without out it, you would be making 50k/year as a skipper on a big Jet working for GGN.
I am not going to apologise for wanting to put your 20 year old fight to bed. It is playing into the company's hands like a well oiled plan and we are the ones taking it from behind. The constant bickering will simply promote more days like you mentioned with ACPA and ALPA meeting in an arbitrators office trying to decide who gets what next year. Sorry, I have heard your "be afraid, be very afraid" speech too many times and frankly, I am starting to wonder which side I need to fear the most. Is it the side that will do anything to put a nail in Jazz's coffin with scope, Jets are US, arbitrators or any tool they can get their hands on. Maybe it is the side that refuses to look into the future and will do anything to get revenge upon ACPA even if it means shooting themselves in the foot to do it.
You call me the idiot ,but what would you call a guy who is being played by the company like a 2 dollar fiddle and will not consider any options at all if it has to with ACPA even if it means lower pay, lower pension, more work days, less benefits etc...? Dumbass comes to mind!
If asked in a crewroom, I would say the same thing. It is foolish and dangerous for the Jazz pilots not to consider every option out there to stop the company from cutting us a new hole in 2009. Just because we talk to ACPA, does not mean anything has to happen. Our last round of GS talks is a good example of that. I know they were close but for some reason, it didn't happen. No skin off our noses now was it?
I don't even know why I bothered to reply to your post. You have your mind made up already and will never consider even looking at a solution because you are only interested in getting even, no matter what it costs!
I work for Jazz and the first time I heard that ACPA wanted the 100's back I thought they must be crazy. It would mean me losing my job, why wouldn't I be a little insulted. But instead of turning anti ACPA and playing right into management's hands I dug a little deeper. Turns out that ACPA's contract states that for every EMB that comes online one RJ will be transferred over to Jazz. Well we had all the RJ's as of a few months ago and AC only had 18 or 19 EMB's on the lot. A blatant violation of the contract. Does management care, probably not considering any talk of the RJ's going back or going over too soon would and has created more animosity among the groups, just as they might have hoped. I think the ACPA move in front of Teplistky was merely symbolic and a way of telling the company that they know the contract is being ignored.
This issue is big in that it seemingly sums up management's position regarding the pilot groups and the stance they will be taking now and in the future. Simply pit as many groups against the other and the contract becomes null and void. It seems it's no longer simply blue tail vs. red tail, but PG vs. the rest, 320 vs. the rest, Jazz vs. AC, ALPA vs. ACPA and on and on.
A truly unified group is the only way to fight back against this example of a totalitarian state. The issue of CMA/GGN getting Dash8's goes away with a united front, just as the cargo flying saga would quickly resolve itself if you had a group of 5000 strong coming to the table. The idea of having an association is nice but let's start by uniting our own group and seeing what a difference that makes.
Of course there are Jazz guys with a hate on for ACPA just as there are ACPA guys that hate Jazz, but with strong leadership and new ideas we can get past that and improve all our lives through better pay and working conditions.
You basically got it. In 2000, we had 239 aircraft on the property. We had fleet guarantees that were supposed to increase over the next several years.Glen Quagmire wrote:I think the ACPA move in front of Teplistky was merely symbolic and a way of telling the company that they know the contract is being ignored.
Then came 9/11, SARS, CCAA. We now have less than 200 aircraft (almost 20% decrease) while Jazz has grown by over 50% in the same time span.
Our scope language was raped as a result of CCAA, but we have new language that is being largely ignored by the Company. It's not so much about how many EMJs we have received, but the total reduction of the fleet (4 B747s, 17 DC-9s, 3 A319s, 3 A321s, 35 B737s, 25 RJs, etc... ALL GONE, although we still have guarantees in place).
Forget about Jazz for the moment; we allowed the Company to contract out our cargo flying for a 3-year term to test the markets.
This flying is supposed to be repatriated back to us in June 2007. We have just received a letter from the Company indicating that they will be ignoring this part of the Collective Agreement. That's presently over 30 crews (3 man per crew).
We have a contract and the Company is not abiding by it. What should we do? Do nothing? We have to draw our line in the sand somewhere. The latest RJs to Jazz is just the tip of the iceberg of where our watered down Collective Agreement is not being adhered to.
On another topic, I have just read a couple Jazz MEC Bulletins that were issued to the Jazz pilots (dated July 21st), namely:
1) THE CULPABLE ABSENTEEISM POLICY (CAP) & DISABILITY CASE MANAGEMENT (DCM) and other Labour Policy Abominations.
2) JAZZ MEC SPECIAL BULLETIN - CAPTAIN’S AUTHORITY
Guys, ACPA went through the same some time ago. We dealt with #1 from November 2004 - February 2005. We got it resolved to our satisfaction (meaning the whole idea was a no-go) without having to resort to grievance/arbitration. We dealt with #2 back in 2000/2001.
It would seem that the Company experiments it on the mainline pilots first, and when it fails, they rework it a bit, and then try it on Jazz. Would the Jazz pilots like to know what ACPA did to resolve these issues, or would they like to figure it out for themselves?
In other words, do you want to work in a vacuum in dealing with your problems, or would you like to know what others have tried, and what has worked? That's what ACPA is doing on a global scale with ASAP.
There is no harm in talking, and sharing strategy to beat an entity that is trying to divide and conquer us.
I agree with much of what you say, although I am not quite sure about the Jazz has grown 50% part. I think that the Jazz fleet pre CCAA stood at around 110 airplanes of which 40 were jets.
Anyhow someone in a leadership role on one side of the aisle will have to extend an olive branch to bring about more unity. Perhaps you might be up for it. I know you will have my support at least should you chose so. I believe we have to be more aligned and have more civilized discourse to regain pay and conditions come 09.
Perhaps I haven't been in the ACE family long enough to understand all the intricacies of the system, but I know one thing, there is strength in numbers.
Traf wrote:So here is the million dollar question; How do you get these 2 sides on the same page when there has been 20 years of fighting, there is a lawsuit between a portion of them and both unions want to represesnt and are worried about the survival of the union as much as they are worried about survival of the airline?
This begs the question: What is a union? Is it a corporate logo, with financials and legalities attached, or is it the heart and soul of its members?
I'm looking at the names of the guys who run ALPA Jazz. Would any of those names change if the Teamsters were representing the Jazz pilots? The only significant change, with a change in union representation, is the Constitution and the Policy Manual; the players will most likely remain the same.
What I'm trying to say, it doesn't matter what you are called, because it's the guys running it who will be your true representatives.
This brings me now to the next question: If its the same players running the show, does it matter what the outfit is called? What's the difference between ACPA and ALPA if the leaders are the same? What are the advantages/disadvantages?
ALPA is truly a brotherhood of pilots; it doesn't really look at what is best for each individual segment of the membership, as long as it is good for the membership (or entity) as a whole -some segments will be sacrificed for the benefit of the whole.
Take the CAW & its Passenger Service Agents as an example. The agents did not take any wage cuts during CCAA (unless you count a 2.5% wage cut, which snapped back this year), however they sacrificed their young. The CAW would rather layoff almost every single person except one, as long as the one remaining person did not take a pay cut. In other words, as long as the entity is spared, individual segments can be sacrificed.
ALPA is similar, in that it has to conduct a careful balancing act between the individual needs of the numerous parts that make up the whole.
ACPA does not have this problem, because it can solely concentrate on the needs of its members. However, the biggest disadvantage is that it has lost its strength, the strength that comes with numbers.
So what is the best solution?
Beats me. However, it is quite obvious that we can't continue on the same path. The only alternative we've found is to form a Professional Association; an association that will work to enhance and protect the piloting profession (and anything that we have in common), but that each segment will still be responsible to its own members on the micro level.
It is working globally with ASAP, so why not bring it locally to our country? Instead of always looking at our differences, why don't we look at what we have in common?
tonysoprano wrote:Buzz for president. He's got my vote.
If Buzz were in charge of ACPA, he would have given all RJs, EMJs and A320s to Jazz (which they can operate at their DH8 pay rates), as long as the widebodies did not take one single concession.
You most probably would have been laid off. However, the most senior pilot would not have lost a penny.
You might want to ask some OCPer's about that one.
"So what is the best solution"?
"Beats me. However, it is quite obvious that we can't continue on the same path. The only alternative we've found is to form a Professional Association; an association that will work to enhance and protect the piloting profession (and anything that we have in common), but that each segment will still be responsible to its own members on the micro level".
Martin, if your in the "know" as you say you are with acpa, then you would realise that the only thing preventing a global solution last time was the representation vote.
The majority of Jazz pilots (imo) have little allegiance to alpa national with Duane Worth and his 550k/year salary, like myself, I'm sure they couldn't give a rats arse if they were represented by acpa or alpa.
The solutions to fixing this are simple, going infront of Teplitsky is a step backwards and doesn't help in unifying the whole group, hence for my reason for starting this thread in the first place.
I believe the hearing in front of Teplitski was solely to do with upholding the terms of the collective agreement. I can assure you that the members of ACPA would be stunned if it were announced that ACPA was bringing back the RJ to mainline.
There are many of us at mainline that are somewhat sympathetic to the whole process. When I say that, I mean, we don't hate Jazz or its pilots, many of us have roots there. We would much rather see a unified group, working together.
The way I see it, there is a minority of each group within each camp that are so twisted and bitter, they would rather see the demise of the two groups than a solution. We are seeing this within the mainline ranks with a small splinter group that are insistent on shooting more bullets into the dead horse named Keller. I have been demanding that ACPA put this to a vote ( to allow democratic process ) once and for all to put an end to it. So far nothing. So I am aware that both sides are not particularly trustworthy. ( as do most members )
ACPA needs to realize that the lawsuit is a personal matter between a select group of members. For whatever reason, they have taken ownership of this and will not negotiate on behalf of the majority until this matter is off the table. ( must be nice to know that if someone sues me, ACPA and its members will come to my aid ) a bit unrealistic! This has to be resolved and I don't see it happening until ACPA distances itself. Amazing how democracy disappears in the name of politics.
Martin is probably correct in the fact that you can change the name of a union but still have the same players. Therefore, the obvious solution is to fire all the players and put new recruits on the bench that don't have a particular hate on for the other team.
Jaques Strappe wrote: Martin is probably correct in the fact that you can change the name of a union but still have the same players. Therefore, the obvious solution is to fire all the players and put new recruits on the bench that don't have a particular hate on for the other team.
That was my point in one of my original posts in this thread: Only 4 of the 13 MEC ACPA members were hired pre-1997, and of these 2 are former CP. 10 of the 13 members have never held office in any shape or form prior to January 2006.
We are the new recruits!!!