Global Solutions

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: Sulako, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit

User avatar
twinpratts
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1584
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:38 am
Location: The Wild Wild West.
Contact:

Global Solutions

Post by twinpratts »

So that's it? It a dead horse? :shock:
---------- ADS -----------
  
I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...

qwert
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:29 pm

Post by qwert »

It was never alive and as sure as you were born, never will be...
---------- ADS -----------
  

arewethereyet
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:30 pm
Location: T/O

Post by arewethereyet »

like i said before.... jazz is gonna go for air duefess'es flying.. ya tony.... your flying.. i wonder how much you (acpa guys) r gonna give up this time to scope the jazz guys in order to fly your embryos. maybe your pension this time..

JAZZ GUYS.......... BRING ON THE FLYING!!!! you do a better job and your heads fit through the main cabin door!!

Buy the way. GS is a no go... for now because ACPA said NO!!!! not the other way round...

TRAF.. you did good!!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Traf
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 437
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:40 pm

Post by Traf »

TRAF.. you did good!!
Could you tell my wife that?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Brick Head
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 882
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm

Post by Brick Head »

arewethereyet wrote:like i said before.... jazz is gonna go for air duefess'es flying.. ya tony.... your flying.. i wonder how much you (acpa guys) r gonna give up this time to scope the jazz guys in order to fly your embryos. maybe your pension this time..
The structure and relationship between Jazz and Air Canada are forever changed. We are separate companies now with separate shareholders to please. It used to be Air Canada would try to push as much flying to the connectors as possible because they were cheaper. The money all ended up in the same spot anyway. Not anymore. Air Canada will operate anything it thinks " Air Canada" can make money at, period. If they can't make money at it they will try to off load it. Why make money for Jazz shareholders when they can make money for their own. It matters not weather Jazz could make more than Air Canada on a specific route. It comes down to simple economics which is what the new structure is all about. If it doesn't make money we don't do it. If it does make money....

I would suggest to you that since Air Canada has purchased all those EMJ 190's they think they can make money with them.

If you go into negotiations in 2009 with "we will fly the EMJ cheaper than those AC pilots" your going to get a completely different response than last time.

On the back drop of the CPA negotiations with Air Canada in 2008 it will be something like this.

That's nice but we haven't been asked to fly those aircraft. We will keep that in mind if AC asks us to operate them. In the mean time we need to talk about our cost structure in light of our new CPA rates. We also need to talk about or cost structure moving forward in our new corporate role. That of a feeder airline reliant on the CPA's for our existence.

To be perfectly clear I am in no way suggesting that Jazz's cost are too high or that you make too much. Quite the contrary. What I am try to illustrate is that the target just moved. Old strategies no longer apply. But most importantly in order to contain your opponent at the negotiating table you need to understand where they will be coming from before they even speak. You need to have formulated well thought out rebuttals for what they are going to use as ammo before they even say it.

I am quite sure ALPA has the where with all to figure this out and deal with it effectively.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Brick Head
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 882
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm

Post by Brick Head »

[quote="arewethereyet"]

Buy the way. GS is a no go... for now because ACPA said NO!!!! not the other way round...

quote]

That doesn't surprise me at all. Again the new reality.

This time look at it from the view point of the ACPA/Air Canada bargaining table in 2009.

Lets say there is 50 million on the table just to pick a number. Air Canada will put a dollar figure on what they think GS will cost them in terms of added CPA costs and then remove that number from the 50 million on the table. End result ACPA members will get less. Now, if you believe that this loss to ACPA members is worth it, to stop the two groups from competing for each others work, then it's a go. However if you believe that the relationship and structure between the two companies has changed substantially enough that the old way of thinking no longer applies, then it is a no go.

I know this sounds harsh but ACPA's responsibility is to its members only. Perhaps this way of organizing ourselves needs to be changed? However for the moment the ACPA executive has a fiduciary duty to it's members, and only it's members. I am a proponent of a GS or some sort of organization that will unify the voices of pilots in Canada before our profession is decimated. However under the present structure I would have made the same decision. A decision to not pursue GS because I would have been bound by my duty to represent the interests of only one side.

In order to get a GS that is achievable and works we need to change the way we structure ourselves as pilot professionals in Canada IMO.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Brick Head on Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dockjock
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1004
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:46 pm
Location: south saturn delta

Post by Dockjock »

Attempting to capture flying from a mainline carrier with higher pay rates, to a regional carrier with lower ones is counterproductive for the entire profession and I can't believe intelligent pilots do not see this.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Localizer
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1307
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:18 pm
Location: CYYZ

Post by Localizer »

This is just an evil circle that will never end ... mostly because we as pilots are stubborn, and extremely competative. (We will always need the one up on someone else)

So with that said .. GS won't work or exist until we come to the realization that "someone" will get hurt .. but if its for the greater good isn't it worth it?

Doesn't matter anyway ....
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Dark Helmet
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:59 pm

Post by Dark Helmet »

No matter how you cut this, the end result will be the same.

Okay Brickhead, you have proven your point in several occasions that both companies have been separated, strategies have changed and because of this ACPA no longer feels necessary to form a GS with ALPA.

In the end we are all going to the negotiating table as seperate groups.

[quote]If it doesn't make money we don't do it. If it does make money....

I would suggest to you that since Air Canada has purchased all those EMJ 190's they think they can make money with them.[quote]

Okay, so what happens when they find they can't make money flying them. Wage cuts so they they can continue to fly them? Get rid of them all together?

In the end, everyone loses.

But ya, to answer your question Pratts. GS is dead. Brickhead did a pretty good job of explaining why.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Dark Helmet on Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Dark Helmet
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:59 pm

Post by Dark Helmet »

Dockjock wrote:Attempting to capture flying from a mainline carrier with higher pay rates, to a regional carrier with lower ones is counterproductive for the entire profession and I can't believe intelligent pilots do not see this.
On the contrary, I think we see this very clearly. That is why both groups got together in the GS talks in the first place. But, Like mentione above, Losing your flying to Jazz is not likely to happen at this point so relax Dockjock.

For what it si worth I do agree with you. Have EMB go to Jazz because we are cheaper does not benefit any pilot in both groups.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Dark Helmet
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:59 pm

Post by Dark Helmet »

Double post
---------- ADS -----------
  

Brick Head
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 882
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm

Post by Brick Head »

[quote="Dark Helmet"]

Okay Brickhead, you have priven your point in several occasions that both companies have been separated, stratagies have chamged and because of this ACPA no longr feels necessary to form a GS with ALPA.
[quote]

Your sentiment is probably correct from the standpoint of what the present GS talks were about. In other words will the structure contemplated work? That structure required AC's approval and IMO was doomed from the start for that very reason. Moreover the structure contemplated would see a merge with Jazz which would solve what? What do we do if AC turns around and gives the CPA to another feeder like CMA? We wouldn't have solved the whipsaw problem would we.

However GS is not dead. For some reason the membership on both sides of this round of GS talks had very different expectations. We were told that ACPA was exploring 3 options.

1. Merge with Jazz

2. ACPA joining ALPA

3. Form a new Canadian body that provides a voice for Canadian professional pilots.

Option one is out. Our GS solution committee is still at work on the feasibility of options 2 and 3.

So from the ACPA members point of view GS is not over. We just have less options.

"Okay so what happens when they can't make money by flying them, Or say they can make money but they will have to implement wage cuts in order to do so? In the end, you will lose, we will lose, everyone will lose."

That is the standard negotiation rhetoric since the first day I starting working. Saying it and proving it are two separate things. However if they do prove it, CCAA has taught us that at the end of the day if basic economic principals do not prevail we all loose. Forcing AC to fly aircraft that they loose money with is ultimately not in our best interest.

The new structure emphasizes the ownership that unions have wrt what happens to fleet types. Although it is a subtle change there is now a clearer link between asking for too much and loosing aircraft or flirting with CCAA.

All part of the plan man.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Dark Helmet
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:59 pm

Post by Dark Helmet »

Brick Head wrote:

However GS is not dead. For some reason the membership on both sides of this round of GS talks had very different expectations. We were told that ACPA was exploring 3 options.

1. Merge with Jazz

2. ACPA joining ALPA

3. Form a new Canadian body that provides a voice for Canadian professional pilots.

Option one is out. Our GS solution committee is still at work on the feasibility of options 2 and 3.

So from the ACPA members point of view GS is not over. We just have less options.

.
Okay, I don't really see how option 2 would solve it. Things would be pretty much the same as now, only ACPA would be represented by a different union.

Option 3: would be sort like CALPA back in the 90's. When things went sour between the pilots groups and we all broke up. I don't know the jist of it as i was not around, but I know that is why we are at where we are at today.

I am not saying that GS will never work, or option 1 was the best option. Like you said it won't solve the whipsaw. But like localizer said earlier:


mostly because we as pilots are stubborn, and extremely competative. (We will always need the one up on someone else)

So with that said .. GS won't work or exist until we come to the realization that "someone" will get hurt .. but if its for the greater good isn't it worth it?
But like you said, you guys are working on it and exploring all options. If it is in the best interests of the pilots , I am sure it will be implemented, and if it is not, then it won't.
---------- ADS -----------
  

piggy
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 7:09 pm

Post by piggy »

You are correct that the structures have changed for Jazz and AC. Most airline analysts say that AC is ahead of other majors in the USA with their largest order of 787s . However they also say that from a cost point of view AC did not restructure enough and that in the long term their current cost structure may not be viable.
Inflation is concern, interest rates on the rise, and especially the possibility of oil going to $100/ barrel and remaining high for the long term.
From a historical point of view, the next economic downturn should occur in some form within now and 2012.

2 biggest Costs for an airline are fuel (currently #1) and LABOUR, period..

AC may keep the emb, but JAzz is sure destined to grow more and take more flying from AC, given the points above

in my humble opinion, of course.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Squid
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Timmins

Post by Squid »

Well I guess that explains why WJ has 6 of the 10 guys from Jazz on the August 7 course and more of the same for the second course in August. :(
---------- ADS -----------
  

Brick Head
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 882
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm

Post by Brick Head »

never mind don't have the time :D
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Brick Head on Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tonysoprano
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2589
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:01 pm

Post by tonysoprano »

arewethereyet wrote:like i said before.... jazz is gonna go for air duefess'es flying.. ya tony.... your flying.. i wonder how much you (acpa guys) r gonna give up this time to scope the jazz guys in order to fly your embryos. maybe your pension this time..

JAZZ GUYS.......... BRING ON THE FLYING!!!! you do a better job and your heads fit through the main cabin door!!

Buy the way. GS is a no go... for now because ACPA said NO!!!! not the other way round...

TRAF.. you did good!!
You really seem to like the word "deufess". Hey buddy, I hope Jazz gets the Emb. If history serves me correct, Jazz got the RJs, we got the Embs. Next they get the Embs we'll get more widebodies. Catch my drift? I still say there will be a GS in some shape or form even if it has to come at the eleventh hour. And as for my pension, well, you really are a duefess.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Bede
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3187
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am

Post by Bede »

I think you are on to something tony. I believe that is the way everyone can win.:AC gives up emb for widebodies, Jazz gives up -8 for emb, the company saves money, and everyone's pay goes up because of the larger aircraft. This type of economics makes far more sense than this union gimme-gimme stuff.
---------- ADS -----------
  

tonysoprano
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2589
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:01 pm

Post by tonysoprano »

:smt119
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Localizer
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1307
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:18 pm
Location: CYYZ

Post by Localizer »

Isn't there an LOU in place for all Jazz pilots to get an interview at mainline? .. I haven't heard of a Jazz pilot interviewing in awhile now .. So whats the deal? ..
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Jaques Strappe
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1847
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
Location: YYZ

Post by Jaques Strappe »

I don't think a merger of sorts was ever really viable due to the fact, as pointed out earlier, that in the end Air Canada will choose who flies its' airplanes. Now with Jazz being completely separate, there is little doubt of no single list and this has nothing to do with ACPA not wanting one.

To the best of my knowledge however, both groups are still meeting to plan negotiations that benefit each other as opposed to stealing off our respective tables as some would like to see.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Standby for new atis message

Kid
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:13 pm
Location: CYYC

Post by Kid »

If Jazz and AC were truly so separate, AC would not honour the current hiring freeze for Jazz pilots and would hire them at the same rate as WJ does.... Just an observation.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Jaques Strappe
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1847
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
Location: YYZ

Post by Jaques Strappe »

That just might happen
---------- ADS -----------
  
Standby for new atis message

User avatar
Dark Helmet
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:59 pm

Post by Dark Helmet »

I wont happen anytime soon. By the time the freeze is lifted the doors would have been closed. I mean c'mon, they are hurting enough with people going to WJ, they wont risk loosing pilots to AC at an exponential rate also
---------- ADS -----------
  

asdfasd
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:50 pm

Post by asdfasd »

Speaking of costs, don’t forget its all new hires flying the ERJ. FOs start at 36000 ish for unlimited flying for two years. I don’t think Jazz would be more cost effective.

And, it 500$ a day makes or breaks an aircrafts daily profitability, then it isn’t going to survive anyways.


Just my opinion.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”