Here is the solution to save our profession

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

FixPilotsPay
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:46 am

Here is the solution to save our profession

Post by FixPilotsPay »

Well, 2009 is fast approaching and I have yet to hear of any solution that makes any sense. We negotiated with a gun to our head last time around and so did all other legacy carriers in north america. Well, what goes around comes around. Going on strike won't do squat. They will just use their star alliance partners to fill the transborder and international holes. If anyone at ACPA or ALPA or any other airline pilots union is reading this, here is what I propose. We find out exactly who's contract expires at what date (American, Delta, Northwest, United, USairways...etc). Pick whichever one expires the latest. No one signs a contract beyond that date. And when that date comes around we ALL go on strike at the same time. There are a lot of pissed off airline pilots across the border. They had their pensions raped and want it back. We want fair wages, no more paygroup and no more whipsaw. We need to fix it right. I say we all put a gun to our managements heads together. Just the thought of everyone being able to walk off legally at the same time is enought to cripple the north american economy. Management will be powerless. We need to get it together if this is to work. Surely a dozen MEC's can agree on a strike date to all walk off together as a profession? Any takers?

Fixit
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Flying Low
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 927
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:22 pm
Location: Northern Ontario...why change now?

Post by Flying Low »

Nice idea but I do see a couple of problems. Last time ACPA crossed the lines and even exceeded their own contract by going up to the CAR's limits to cover some of the flying. Do you honestly expect to get a whole continent of pilots on the same page? Even if it did happen...how long do you think it would be before we are legislated back to work? I guaranty we would suddenly become an essential service.

Don't get me wrong. I fully believe in United We Stand...Divided We Fall. But I also know north american pilots are their own worst enemies.
---------- ADS -----------
 
"The ability to ditch an airplane in the Hudson does not qualify a pilot for a pay raise. The ability to get the pilots, with this ability, to work for 30% or 40% pay cuts qualifies those in management for millions in bonuses."
FixPilotsPay
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:46 am

Post by FixPilotsPay »

Well, if everyone is on strike, there is no one left to cross the lines. All we need to do is set a date at which we can all legally strike. Hardly rocket science. As for back to work legislation, they can all eat dogshit for all I care. We have a right to go on strike. It's not like we're a medevac company. If we are so essential that they need to legislate us back to work, they can pay us what we're worth and we'll gladly go back to work. I'm not saying we should bleed this for all it's worth, Just enough to get back what we lost and a fair contract. You already know we aren't getting it back in 2009. Thats why we need to start working on a bigger plan right now. If our union can't pick up the phone and share ideas with other airline pilot unions and associations, then we're all screwed.

Fixit
---------- ADS -----------
 
Johnny767
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 283
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:50 pm

Post by Johnny767 »

Do you mind if I ask;

How long have you been with Air Canada?
---------- ADS -----------
 
FixPilotsPay
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:46 am

Post by FixPilotsPay »

Do you mind if I ask;

How long have you been with Air Canada?
You know I haven't been with Air Canada long since I mentioned paygroup. I have however been in the industry long enough (15 years) to know we've been getting dicked around for the last few years.
Yes, I knew what the conditions were when I came here. I also know what the conditions were when I started flying. The downward trend is disturbing to me. What's it going to be in another 15 years? It's in our hands.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Johnny767
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 283
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:50 pm

Post by Johnny767 »

Thanks for the answer. Pilot wages are right up there with Car Salesman. We've spent years thinking that IF (?) you get yourself to a 100K / year Salary...you've made it.

Well, reality is 100K is what Car Salesman now make, which is more than a good number of Air Canada Pilots make.

To your thoughts, you will come to understand that Airline Pilots couldn't organize a piece of a$$ in a wh^re house.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
twinpratts
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1600
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:38 am
Location: The Wild Wild West.
Contact:

Post by twinpratts »

Nice thought... but it'll never happen.
---------- ADS -----------
 
I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
User avatar
Localizer
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1426
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:18 pm
Location: CYYZ

Post by Localizer »

FixPilotspay ...

Instead of trying to organize a continent .. why not start small and try a country? Try to stop the whipsaw and fight to the bottom with your neighbour first. Instead of trying to screw the regional pilots, try this for a change ........ you ready for it ......... work together!!! Your amazed, I know! What a thought!! ... Get to the table .. don't dilly dally .. put your foot down and make a decision and live with it. (Global Solutions)

Its a good start .. and its the only solution that makes sense. Continent? .. not so much.

Loc
---------- ADS -----------
 
FixPilotsPay
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:46 am

Post by FixPilotsPay »

Localizer, you and I both know Global Solution has been beaten to death many times before. I'm not going to go there. This isn't a Jazz vs mainline thing. Look at what's going on south of the border at the regional level and that is what you can expect to see here in the near future if we don't do anything. This is about improving everyones standard of living and not who should be flying what. In my opinion ALPA Jazz would be foolish not to join in on a general airline strike. Everyone would gain from it.
But if you want to keep beating a dead horse, that's your business.

Fixit
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Dark Helmet
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:59 pm

Post by Dark Helmet »

Good Concept. but......
FixPilotsPay wrote:Localizer, you and I both know Global Solution has been beaten to death many times before. I'm not going to go there. This isn't a Jazz vs mainline thing.
That is the problem right there. Correct me if I am wrong but the reason for GS was to unify the pilot groups in order to negotiate our demands to management as one was it not? What happened. ALPA wanted something from ACPA and vice versa. Yet both groups were not willing to make any compromises to help one another. I think what Loc meant to say was "How can we unify everyone when we can't even get 2 groups together"
This is about improving everyones standard of living and not who should be flying what.
Global Solutions IMO was mever about "Who flies what" In fact it would have ended that whole mentality altogether.

Ironically what haulted GS talks was this whole "We are separate companies now, and what happens to one group may not affect the other anymore so there is no point to unite both groups blah blah blah etc."

Whose Salaries or conditions you are trying to improve? YOUR OWN's or EVERYONELSE'S.

Say in 09, if ACPA gets a really sweet contract and heaven forbid the U.S. Airways pilots South of the border gets screwed royaly by their managers. What will ACPA do? Go on strike to help them out or just say that they are a separate company and it does not affect us so screw them.
---------- ADS -----------
 
flyinphil
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:26 pm

Post by flyinphil »

Revenues vs expenses has to maintain an equalibrium that is acceptable to investors. That is an important consideration when it comes to public companies.

Too high labour costs cause an increase in ticket prices which will reduce loads which will reduce capacity which will reduce revenues which will reduce jobs and cause investor relations issues.

Why don't you all push for a legitimate profit sharing plan that allows employees to be rewarded as the company prospers and held at base salaries during poor economic cycles? That is what corporate North America has done and lets not fool ourselves, AC is just another corporation designed to provide return to it"s investors. The spinning off of business groups should also yield something for the employees.
---------- ADS -----------
 
uncleron
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:58 am

Post by uncleron »

"Too high labour costs cause an increase in ticket prices"

Why should pilots have to subsisize cheaper airfares with lower wages.A TTC busdriver makes $100,000 so why are we concerned about keeping wages lower. Southwest pilots make good money and their fares are one of the lowest.

The public has no problem paying $50 for a cab ride from downtown to Pearson, but expect to fly to Calgary for $300.Pilots in this country are underpaid and if the public has to pay more so be it.
There always seems to be money around for the $400,000 bonus.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by uncleron on Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FixPilotsPay
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:46 am

Post by FixPilotsPay »

Whose Salaries or conditions you are trying to improve? YOUR OWN's or EVERYONELSE'S.
My own. For that to happen everyones need to improve. Who do you think I am, Mother Theresa?
Say in 09, if ACPA gets a really sweet contract and heaven forbid the U.S. Airways pilots South of the border gets screwed royaly by their managers. What will ACPA do? Go on strike to help them out or just say that they are a separate company and it does not affect us so screw them.
This isn't about 09. We can't get this done until every company's contract is up for renewal. I say take whatever peanuts they throw at us in 09, and go very short term (1 or 2 years). Then when all companies are negotiating and in a legal strike position, we all walk. It's not about screwing anyone, just getting back what we're worth. We don't even need to negotiate anything with each other. Just set a date and walk out. That's it.
If we keep this small (AC and Jazz) they will have the Star Alliance partners doing our international and transborder flying in a heartbeat. Management is always thinking and they are ready for a little strike in 09. They expect it and have a plan to deal with it. If we don't think outside the box and match their moves, we're gonna be toast.

Fixit
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Dark Helmet
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:59 pm

Post by Dark Helmet »

I see where you are coming from. However you just said it yourself.
My own. For that to happen everyones need to improve. Who do you think I am, Mother Theresa
Okay lets say we all go on strike, now when do we end this strike. When everyone has a Fair and reasonable contract or just when one group has a reasonable contract. what happens to the pilot groups that went on strike don't get a reasonable contract out of it. Are they just to be hung out to dry? If you are not a Mother Theresa don't expect everyonelse to be one either.

If we keep this small (AC and Jazz) they will have the Star Alliance partners doing our international and transborder flying in a heartbeat


Okay how about those Star Alliance partners. or LCC like WestJet, South west, Jet blue. Do you think they will go on strike as well to "save our profession" why would they. Why would they do this to their management who have been nothing but good and appreciative of them.

Having said all that, you made a good point earlier
Look at what's going on south of the border at the regional level and that is what you can expect to see here in the near future if we don't do anything.

Well here is some interesting reading I dug up regarding the regionals south of the border. Be interesting to see how this works out.



Release #07.042
August 23, 2007

ALPA Pilot Leaders Unite in Advance of Negotiations

CINCINNATI, OH—The leaders of five ALPA pilot groups met in Cincinnati last week to develop a common strategy in dealing with current and upcoming contract negotiations with their respective managements.

Capt. J.C. Lawson, Capt. Michael Jayson, Capt. Bill Dressler, Capt. Tom Wychor, and Capt. Dave Nieuwenhuis—the Master Executive Council (MEC) chairmen of the pilot groups at Comair, Mesa Air Group, ExpressJet, Mesaba, and Atlantic Southeast Airlines—issued the following statements expressing the unity of their pilot groups.

The August 14th meeting provided a forum for developing a pattern-bargaining approach to negotiations. With the pilots of Atlantic Southeast Airlines poised to enter their sixth year of contract negotiations, the leaders expressed concerns and discussed strategy for this and for Mesa Air Group whose pilots are preparing to enter negotiations in September of this year.

Comair MEC Chairman Capt. J.C. Lawson stated, “This meeting was a tremendous success. By presenting a united front and a common strategy, we will be able to negotiate improved contracts that will reward pilots for all their hard work and dedication.”

Mesa Air Group MEC Chairman Capt. Michael Jayson agreed, “Our pilots are frustrated by management’s utter disregard for many sections of our current contract and fully appreciate the support we receive across company lines from our fellow ALPA brothers and sisters. By having strategic and successful meetings such as this one, we will maximize our bargaining strength.”

ExpressJet MEC Chairman Bill Dressler added, “The success of this meeting allows us to negotiate with confidence with our managements. The era of managements whipsawing pilot groups against each other to compete for flying, at the expense of all pilots, must come to a close.”

Atlantic Southeast Airlines MEC Chairman Dave Nieuwenhuis concluded, saying that, “We’re putting to bed any notions our respective managements have that they are going be able to pit pilots against each other for their gain. That’s just not going to happen.”

The meeting of the pilot leaders focused on the common goal of building unity and reaching out to all carriers. While more work remains, the future is coming into focus.

“What happens at one carrier is going to affect pilots at other carriers,” Capt. Tom Wychor, MEC Chairman for Mesaba Airlines observed. “If we watch out for one another, we protect ourselves at the same time.”

Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilot union representing more than 61,000 cockpit crewmembers at 40 airlines in the U.S. and Canada. Visit the ALPA website at http://www.alpa.org.
I am all for a united front. But I am not interested if it is for the beneift of the few. This is IMHO the reason why these negots usually don't work out in the first place.

Take care and Good luck
DH
---------- ADS -----------
 
FixPilotsPay
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:46 am

Post by FixPilotsPay »

Okay lets say we all go on strike, now when do we end this strike. When everyone has a Fair and reasonable contract or just when one group has a reasonable contract. what happens to the pilot groups that went on strike don't get a reasonable contract out of it. Are they just to be hung out to dry?
Strike ends when everyone gets a fair contract. We're in it together or else it's useless. As for non union companies such as Westjet, I don't really know. They would gain from this inderectly even if they are not involved. Maybe by then profit sharing will be very marginal and they may want to join in, who knows.

In all likelyhood it would start as a one day general strike to get everyones attention. The more companies join in the better the outcome for everyone. This is especially true for regional airlines who in my opinion have lost the most in the last decade and have the most to gain. It's up to us to take control back. Or I guess we can sit back and do nothing and then complain about it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Bede
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4427
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am

Post by Bede »

I don't mean to be a pessimist, but can someone please tell me the last strike any labour group conducted where the labour group came out with a salary increase greater than the salary lost during the strike?

PS Randel doesn't have a 1.4M salary - most of that is from stock options. ALPA had the opportunity for stock after CCAA but sold it for pennies on the dollar, and mgmt kept their stock.
---------- ADS -----------
 
whipline
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 616
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:40 am

Post by whipline »

Just a few oomments from someone who doesn't work for any of these companies.

1. As soon as you said this is about YOU, you lost my attention.
2. Get your own house in order before you try to fix everyone else's.

You work for a company that pays their senior pilots a decimal place more on their paycheques then junior pilots.

Are you for or against combining forces with Jazz? If you can't have one voice between two companines owed by ACE how are you going to get everyone else on board, you certainly wouldn't get me. Its like a couple of flea's argueing over who owns the dog.

I agree the profession has gone down and needs to be fixed. There isn't many ways a company can lower their costs besides wages..next contract vote yes or vote with your feet.
---------- ADS -----------
 
prop2jet
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 573
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:50 am

Post by prop2jet »

Fix...
Your propositon is utopic. The reality is that there are many little things besides salary that sets each group apart from the other. What pilots earn south of the border in addition to benefits are radically different from what pilots earn here.

If Global Solutions could not work, then there is no way any north american strike will ever work, and the reason is because there is more to it than salaries. As has been said, are you willing to stay out on strike even if you have been offered an excellent package just because another group south of the border has not been granted theirs? I DON"T THINK SO, and you are naive to think that everyone else would.

The one thing that the unions can do in concert together is to educate the travelling public. There is still a misconception out there that most pilots earn big bucks.

As for profit sharing, well, novel approach however I personally can't plan my expenses on what I might get. Give me a salary that I can comfortably live on and top it up with profit sharing... maybe.
---------- ADS -----------
 
FixPilotsPay
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:46 am

Post by FixPilotsPay »

Are you for or against combining forces with Jazz?
For. Double endtail scenario seemed fair to everyone. Don't know why it didn't work. Time to try something different as both MECs don't seem to have the will to make this work.
The reality is that there are many little things besides salary that sets each group apart from the other. What pilots earn south of the border in addition to benefits are radically different from what pilots earn here.
I agree. As a baseline what we have in common is that we all lost big and should be able to get back at least what we had before 9/11.
As has been said, are you willing to stay out on strike even if you have been offered an excellent package just because another group south of the border has not been granted theirs? I DON"T THINK SO, and you are naive to think that everyone else would.
I would suspect things would get sorted out rather quickly if we all walked at the same time. 3 days max. When the fuel prices went up it didn't take them very long to come up with a fuel surcharge. An extra 3$ per seat would be enough. I don't have all the answers and no solution is perfect but I sure the hell ain't going to sit on the sidelines and wait for someone to offer me a golden package in 09. It's not going to happen unless we get off our fat asses and do something to take back our profession.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Amateur Turbines
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:41 pm

Post by Amateur Turbines »

Strike ends when everyone gets a fair contract. We're in it together or else it's useless. As for non union companies such as Westjet, I don't really know. They would gain from this inderectly even if they are not involved. Maybe by then profit sharing will be very marginal and they may want to join in, who knows.
Ha Ha! Westjet go on strike to help out AC pay cheques! I think someone has been smokin' to much wacky tobacee! I get paid a very fair wage at WJ and will not be going on strike as a united front to help out failing business plans and crusty pilots that want more money. The only way WJ will benefit from you going on strike is by increasing load factors from 88% to 100%. Have fun in 09. I wish you all the best. But don't think that WJ will be helping you out to much!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”