Air Canada to go ahead with LCC
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Air Canada to go ahead with LCC
I just read this article: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... le2337559/
I hope this does not pan out. I'd hate to see the scope clause pushed out of the way even further than it is with SkyRegional. They already are wasting their money on that venture. Whether AC goes for this or not make sure it's ACPA pilots that are driving the planes.
I hope this does not pan out. I'd hate to see the scope clause pushed out of the way even further than it is with SkyRegional. They already are wasting their money on that venture. Whether AC goes for this or not make sure it's ACPA pilots that are driving the planes.
Re: Air Canada to go ahead with LCC
Air Canada already has Low Cost Carrier pilots. They could have zero cost pilots and it wouldn't make a lick of difference.
Re: Air Canada to go ahead with LCC
Air Canada's only hope is to fix the airline they've got (BofD's are you listening?) They will get their asses handed to them if they try and run a low cost airline because they're doing such a bang up job of running a high cost one aren't they?
If I was an Air Canada creditor or shareholder I would be demanding answers to some very pointed questions. Like how do they expect to pay their bills and increase shareholder value at Air Canada when their plan is to shift the revenue making ability to another company?
Are Air Canada shareholders going to be left with nothing again?
Are Air Canada creditors going to be paid what's owed by this new company?
Will this new company be sold off like everything else of value over the last 10 years leaving "Air Canada" with nothing but the bills, not even passengers to fly?
In fact in the interests of the economy and the nation I think the government should be asking the hardest questions of all given this company's history since CCAA.
If I was an Air Canada creditor or shareholder I would be demanding answers to some very pointed questions. Like how do they expect to pay their bills and increase shareholder value at Air Canada when their plan is to shift the revenue making ability to another company?
Are Air Canada shareholders going to be left with nothing again?
Are Air Canada creditors going to be paid what's owed by this new company?
Will this new company be sold off like everything else of value over the last 10 years leaving "Air Canada" with nothing but the bills, not even passengers to fly?
In fact in the interests of the economy and the nation I think the government should be asking the hardest questions of all given this company's history since CCAA.
Re: Air Canada to go ahead with LCC
The company is just trying to incite a reaction from the pilot group with this article
Re: Air Canada to go ahead with LCC
Well if in fact they are serious about a LCC, I wouldn't do it with any AC employees as it just won't work. CR is about 5 steps ahead of ACPA.
Re: Air Canada to go ahead with LCC
By "employees" I assume you mean everybody from the CEO down? Because if they're only going to bring the management and/or their management style over with them then I agree, it doesn't stand a chance of working.morefun wrote:Well if in fact they are serious about a LCC, I wouldn't do it with any AC employees as it just won't work. CR is about 5 steps ahead of ACPA.
Re: Air Canada to go ahead with LCC
Rockie, that is exactly what I meant....but using AC Pilots and no one else might work as well with a little modification to work rules. The JetStar model is what CR is really looking for so I see him pushing for no AC employees.
Re: Air Canada to go ahead with LCC
Scope; not just protecting pilot jobs but now ALL the employees are counting on us protecting scope. That is the big difference now. QANTAS does not have it. ACPA still does. I will fight to keep it to the very end, whatever that may be.
Re: Air Canada to go ahead with LCC
yycflyguy wrote:Scope; not just protecting pilot jobs but now ALL the employees are counting on us protecting scope.
With that said, it is not unreasonable to imagine ACPA negotiating to capture the LCC flying and the corporation starting the LCC without including the other employee groups. Weren't LCC rates included in the first FA TA, and removed from the second (which was then 'awarded' to the FA's by the Arbitrator)? I can't imagine ACPA is negotiating on behalf of the other unions.
It should be pointed out that Air Canada Pilots aren't against the corporation starting a Low Cost Carrier, they are against;
-A separate pilot group doing this flying
-A separate set of wages and working conditions at the LCC
Re: Air Canada to go ahead with LCC
LCC flying would be great.
Same airplane, same pilots at the same company = same pay (well, a little more when we get our across the board raises)
They can call it anything they like. Super-duper-discount-air. I don't care, but it will have the same WAWCON for the pilots. At 3% of CASM we don't need to discount anything.
Same airplane, same pilots at the same company = same pay (well, a little more when we get our across the board raises)
They can call it anything they like. Super-duper-discount-air. I don't care, but it will have the same WAWCON for the pilots. At 3% of CASM we don't need to discount anything.
Re: Air Canada to go ahead with LCC
Advice from Quantas pilots
Air Canada pilots advised to be part of proposed low-cost carrier
Scott Deveau Feb 19, 2012 – 11:51 AM ET | Last Updated: Feb 19, 2012 12:42 PM ET
Brent Lewin/Bloomberg
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Air Canada pilots are being warned to make sure they have a seat at the table if the airline pushes ahead with its low-cost carrier plans, or risk seeing it cannibalize the main line’s routes.
The country’s largest carrier is quietly exploring ways of launching its proposed low-cost subsidiary outside of negotiations with the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA), sources have said.
Those options include launching it as an international offshore joint-venture and as a North American subsidiary to compete more effectively on leisure routes with its lower-cost rivals, Air Transat, Sunwing Airlines and WestJet. Air Canada has said it doesn’t comment on “rumors and speculation.”
The model being considered is similar to the one Australia’s Qantas Airways Ltd. had with its Jetstar brand in 2003. As a result, Captain Brad Hodson, vice-president of the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA), is warning his Canadian counterparts not to let Air Canada push ahead with its LCC plans without having some say in how it is shaped.
“You might not be able to stop the LCC, and I’m not saying you should stop it, because there might be a market for it. But you need to get those jobs for your members, and work with the company,” he said in an interview Friday. “You need to have a seat at the table.”
Capt. Hodson said the AIPA, which represents 2,500 pilots at the Qantas Group, including some of the Jetstar pilots, wasn’t given an option when Qantas launched Jetstar. The subsidiary was launched without consoltation with the AIPA, and using pilots outside of the union at lower wages, he said.
The brand has since morphed into an international operation through Qantas establishing a series of offshore joint ventures for Jetstar in Vietnam, Singapore and Japan that employ cheaper local labour than is used in the domestic Jetstar service.
“What we are really seeing now is a franchising of that brand that amounts to essentially offshoring the airline to cheaper cost bases,” Capt. Hodson said. “You lose control of your regulation, your standards and all of those things because they’re not based in your country.”
In Australia, offshoring of the Jetstar brand has led to the loss of lucrative overseas flying for Qantas pilots, including numerous routes to Japan and New Zealand, he said.
“At the start, they didn’t want us because they wanted a whole fresh, clean start,” he said. “I would suggest to Air Canada and its pilots to work together if that is what’s going to happen. I’m not sure whether or not Air Canada wants to do that. The lowcost model is probably not to do that.”
Air Canada’s pilots have remained open to discussing the LCC. But management has yet to bring another proposal in the current talks. Air Canada has said the LCC is critical to the airline’s success, but ACPA members rejected a previous tentative agreement last May, in part because of its support for the low-cost carrier.
Capt. Paul Strachan, the ACPA president, said his union’s leadership would definitely need more information on the LCC before it could be brought back to the membership.
“We have to be able to do the diligence,” he said. “That’s the only way we’ll be able to defend it to the pilots. If they get a sniff we haven’t done our homework, it’s dead.”
Air Canada pilots advised to be part of proposed low-cost carrier
Scott Deveau Feb 19, 2012 – 11:51 AM ET | Last Updated: Feb 19, 2012 12:42 PM ET
Brent Lewin/Bloomberg
Comments Email Twitter
Air Canada pilots are being warned to make sure they have a seat at the table if the airline pushes ahead with its low-cost carrier plans, or risk seeing it cannibalize the main line’s routes.
The country’s largest carrier is quietly exploring ways of launching its proposed low-cost subsidiary outside of negotiations with the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA), sources have said.
Those options include launching it as an international offshore joint-venture and as a North American subsidiary to compete more effectively on leisure routes with its lower-cost rivals, Air Transat, Sunwing Airlines and WestJet. Air Canada has said it doesn’t comment on “rumors and speculation.”
The model being considered is similar to the one Australia’s Qantas Airways Ltd. had with its Jetstar brand in 2003. As a result, Captain Brad Hodson, vice-president of the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA), is warning his Canadian counterparts not to let Air Canada push ahead with its LCC plans without having some say in how it is shaped.
“You might not be able to stop the LCC, and I’m not saying you should stop it, because there might be a market for it. But you need to get those jobs for your members, and work with the company,” he said in an interview Friday. “You need to have a seat at the table.”
Capt. Hodson said the AIPA, which represents 2,500 pilots at the Qantas Group, including some of the Jetstar pilots, wasn’t given an option when Qantas launched Jetstar. The subsidiary was launched without consoltation with the AIPA, and using pilots outside of the union at lower wages, he said.
The brand has since morphed into an international operation through Qantas establishing a series of offshore joint ventures for Jetstar in Vietnam, Singapore and Japan that employ cheaper local labour than is used in the domestic Jetstar service.
“What we are really seeing now is a franchising of that brand that amounts to essentially offshoring the airline to cheaper cost bases,” Capt. Hodson said. “You lose control of your regulation, your standards and all of those things because they’re not based in your country.”
In Australia, offshoring of the Jetstar brand has led to the loss of lucrative overseas flying for Qantas pilots, including numerous routes to Japan and New Zealand, he said.
“At the start, they didn’t want us because they wanted a whole fresh, clean start,” he said. “I would suggest to Air Canada and its pilots to work together if that is what’s going to happen. I’m not sure whether or not Air Canada wants to do that. The lowcost model is probably not to do that.”
Air Canada’s pilots have remained open to discussing the LCC. But management has yet to bring another proposal in the current talks. Air Canada has said the LCC is critical to the airline’s success, but ACPA members rejected a previous tentative agreement last May, in part because of its support for the low-cost carrier.
Capt. Paul Strachan, the ACPA president, said his union’s leadership would definitely need more information on the LCC before it could be brought back to the membership.
“We have to be able to do the diligence,” he said. “That’s the only way we’ll be able to defend it to the pilots. If they get a sniff we haven’t done our homework, it’s dead.”
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Re: Air Canada to go ahead with LCC
The carrier added that it’s “confident that there is sufficient time for the parties to avoid a disruption.”
Meanwhile, the Air Canada Pilots Association is opening the door to discussions with management about a proposed low-cost carrier (LCC).
“We are now watching the corporation for a signal that it is really committed to bargaining in good faith. If it is serious, the corporation will provide us with the details of its LCC that will allow us to perform our own due diligence and determine if there might be some arrangement that would work to the benefit of both parties,” ACPA chairman Gary Tarves said in a memo to pilots.
Captain Tarves said he hopes the union’s negotiating team “will be provided with the unvarnished truth on the corporation’s plans for the future.”
Meanwhile, the Air Canada Pilots Association is opening the door to discussions with management about a proposed low-cost carrier (LCC).
“We are now watching the corporation for a signal that it is really committed to bargaining in good faith. If it is serious, the corporation will provide us with the details of its LCC that will allow us to perform our own due diligence and determine if there might be some arrangement that would work to the benefit of both parties,” ACPA chairman Gary Tarves said in a memo to pilots.
Captain Tarves said he hopes the union’s negotiating team “will be provided with the unvarnished truth on the corporation’s plans for the future.”