Air Canada Pool

[gtanorth]

A large percentage of the OTS will be military in fact that is the only real reason there is any OTS component. The Express PML is in place at Sky GGN and EVAS now and Jazz will be included once the Jazz PML concludes so it sort of is written in stone; seniority based at each regional and prorated equally between each regional based on #of active pilots. The goal of the Express PML is to make sure pilots go to express prior to mainline and to ensure pilots at an Express regional do not under any circumstance leave the brand in hopes of improving their chances or shorten the time to mainline.

If you want to go to AC join Express or the military, otherwise fight it out for the remaining 10% or so with the rest of the market. PML 80%+Military10ish%

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

A large percentage of the OTS will be military in fact that is the only real reason there is any OTS component. The Express PML is in place at Sky GGN and EVAS now and Jazz will be included once the Jazz PML concludes so it sort of is written in stone; seniority based at each regional and prorated equally between each regional based on #of active pilots. The goal of the Express PML is to make sure pilots go to express prior to mainline and to ensure pilots at an Express regional do not under any circumstance leave the brand in hopes of improving their chances or shorten the time to mainline.

If you want to go to AC join Express or the military, otherwise fight it out for the remaining 10% or so with the rest of the market. PML 80%+Military10ish%

What makes you think the Military guys are so special as to be "The only reason there is an OTS component??" Not trying to start a Civilian vs Military war but I have not encountered that little gem of info anywhere...
2-3 Military guys per course for every course is a tall order to fill in itself. We would deplete most of the military guys willing / eligible to come to AC fairly quickly... So that seems like disco fantasy land if you think that was the reason for leaving 20% OTS hiring

-Jimmy

[gtanorth]

Meaning - AC would like to make PML 100% but they need to have a stream for military so they cap the PML at 80%. If they can't get 10% military then I guess the OTS group go from 10 to 11, 12 maybe 15%. Bottom line is clear. The only way to 100% get a shot at AC is through the PML

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

Meaning - AC would like to make PML 100% but they need to have a stream for military so they cap the PML at 80%. If they can't get 10% military then I guess the OTS group go from 10 to 11, 12 maybe 15%. Bottom line is clear. The only way to 100% get a shot at AC is through the PML

Where do you figure AC would want 100% new hires from the PML's but "need" military pilots so that's why they capped it at 80%? I just don't get where you are coming up with that reasoning.

[gtanorth]

AC has a list of reasons why they want the PML as a model some of which include keeping wages at the regionals at competitive levels due to strong recruitment statement made with the PML, pilots already trained in the AC world upon moving to mainline, eliminates attrition to other companies within Express, eliminate Express partners from robbing each other, reducing employment costs at Express by taking pilots in seniority ... highest paid on property, greater attrition control within Express through controlling course dates and defer rights, the list goes on and on. AC would love it if that could be the only way in but they need to save space for military and the odd OTS person that for whatever reason could not go the express route, the key is could not go to express, not, decided not to go to express if they could have, in that case I think you would be hard pressed to reason your way in given the OTS competition for 10-15%.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

AC has a list of reasons why they want the PML as a model some of which include keeping wages at the regionals at competitive levels due to strong recruitment statement made with the PML, pilots already trained in the AC world upon moving to mainline, eliminates attrition to other companies within Express, eliminate Express partners from robbing each other, reducing employment costs at Express by taking pilots in seniority ... highest paid on property, greater attrition control within Express through controlling course dates and defer rights, the list goes on and on. AC would love it if that could be the only way in but they need to save space for military and the odd OTS person that for whatever reason could not go the express route, the key is could not go to express, not, decided not to go to express if they could have, in that case I think you would be hard pressed to reason your way in given the OTS competition for 10-15%.

I get the entire reason for the PML and reducing costs. That has nothing to do with what I asked you. I asked you where did you come up with the reasoning they left 20% specifically for the military? What makes them so special over, as you have finally addressed, other candidates who are qualified bud did not go the express route. And highly I doubt they will run out of OTS candidates quicker than they will run out of Military candidates given the large pool of other 703/704/705 operators that they have hired from for the last 75+ years.

-Jimmy

[gtanorth]

I suspect in their eyes (I'm guessing) military pilots would not reasonably have a chance to go to express for X years after serving their time in the military and still be within the ideal age for hire at mainline. That does not make them special but it does make them unique. The target hires for Express are the 703 and 704 operators (and Direct hire Capts from 705 during growth at Sky and GGN), the clear message to that group is - go to express then come to mainline, I can't see AC weakening that message by hiring any significant number of 703, 704 pilots OTS. Sure some 705 guys will be hired to fill the gap between military and PML.

What has changed is simple - they now have a PML to keeps costs down at their regionals vs. The past 75 years. Just look at Jet Blue now with a cadet program. Get people in young and keep them in the system. Sort of like the cadet program AGL and AC had prior to the PML.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

(I'm guessing)

Ok. Now your posts make more sense.

[DH772]

AC would love it if that could be the only way in but they need to save space for military and the odd OTS person that for whatever reason could not go the express route

Again, please explain why AC "needs" to reserve spots for military guys? They could have easily made it 100% from express carriers. They did back in the 90's.

Here is a bit of news flash. There are TONS of experienced OTS pilots who don't work for an express carrier here in Canada who are looking for a job with AC.
So under your logistical scheme, AC would need to keep roughly 50% of the spots open for OTS if they were to cater their hiring for those unable to go through the express route. (and for the record I'm not in favor of this 80% express guarantee)

[gtanorth]

AC would love it if that could be the only way in but they need to save space for military and the odd OTS person that for whatever reason could not go the express route

Again, please explain why AC "needs" to reserve spots for military guys? They could have easily made it 100% from express carriers. They did back in the 90's.

Here is a bit of news flash. There are TONS of experienced OTS pilots who don't work for an express carrier here in Canada who are looking for a job with AC.
So under your logistical scheme, AC would need to keep roughly 50% of the spots open for OTS if they were to cater their hiring for those unable to go through the express route. (and for the record I'm not in favor of this 80% express guarantee)

I guess that depends on what you mean "unable" to go the express route. Ac wants to drive all future pilots through express. The pml is a recruitment tool for express to keep costs of regional feed low.

[cdnpilot77]

and for the record I'm not in favor of this 80% express guarantee

Not to sound lick a dick, but when you own your own airline, you can set the hiring practises any way you wish. This is what works for them to keep their costs in check, so what? I'm guessing they couldn't give 1 quid of what you or I think of their PML agreements. The only way it will change is if they can't fill the boats, then they re-evaluate. Any chance of that happening?

[Propjet]

I'm sure what I'm about to say will just throw fuel on the fire, but here's my 2 cents...

The whole point of the original PML was to shave off the top earners at Jazz and bring in fresh (cheap) labour at the bottom end. *That* was the point of the PML. However, with the wage drop for year 1 pilots at Jazz came an experience drop as well. At the beginning of 2015 new hires usually had 2500+hrs. Now, several people that I know have less than 1500 hrs and are getting courses. Young guys who would never have had a shot at Jazz under the old scheme suddenly did and they all went flocking there. At the same time other airlines, including GGN, EVAS and Sky began realizing that finding qualified pilots is or will soon become a challenge. This is especially true with GGN and EVAS. Why would a 1500hr guy go to these two to sit right seat in the 1900 when they can be right seat on a shiny new Q with a chance at AC. There were probably also some internal grumblings about equity among express carriers and so new PMLs were formed with those companies as well. Nevertheless, the original intent of the PML was to get rid of top earners at Jazz and make the company more cost efficient. Driving people to express careers was a side effect/benefit which all express carriers hope to benefit from.

My guess is that as soon as PML 1.0 is exhausted, there will be no PML 2.0 in the way people think. It currently takes 4 years to get to the Year 1 salary at Jazz in 2015. Why would AC poach low earners at Jazz? That would only serve to drive operating costs up by increasing training costs at these carriers. In fact it would be to AC's benefit to do the opposite and take pilots from competitors. I don't purport to have any inside information or know any more than anyone else. These are simply my thoughts. IMHO once the PML is exhausted you will see much more OTS hiring and new hires from express carriers will slow down much the same as it did when Jazz was formed.

[DH772]

Cndpilot, way to read only the last sentence of my post. My entire statement was exactly what you so kindly pointed out. AC can hire WHO they want. Meaning they are not keeping the last 20% open to be kind to the military folks.

Quite frankly, take your own advise from your previous post. My opinion is exactly that, mine. I couldn't care less who AC decides to hire but it doesn't mean I endorse a hiring practise that degrades our industry further. Try not to misconstrued my post this time.

G'day

[hithere]

I don't think you will see very many military pilots applying to AC now that new hires are forced into a defined contribution pension planMitary pilots used to be able to buy back years of service with their government defined benefit pension plan when they joined AC but those days are gone.

[Sky_Conqueror]

Relax there Propjet. There will be continuous PML's until the expansions and retirements are done. Projections for expansions and retirements are for the next 5 to 7 years. With around 50 pilots or more leaving per year for the next 5 years, along with new aircraft deliveries, this PML must be maintained. Mathematically it does not make any sense to discontinue this project. Why do you think it was ever set up in the first place? PML's facilitate hiring flows.

[Heisenberg666]

If you read gtanorth's previous posts, it seems very likely he has something to do with GGN management and is spreading rumours about AC's hiring practices to fit his own agenda.

[gtanorth]

No - not close

I have just read the EPML and the Jazz PMA. They will remain in effect as long as they are effective at reducing costs at the regionals (save $1 at a regional AC saves $1). There are 4 reasons why it is effective (and should be for the next 10 years of AC growth and retirement push) 1. recruitment tool for express tied to more competitive wages (competitive when compared to Encore - the competition for domestic regional feed) 2. discourage pilots within express to go to outside airlines if their end goal is AC 3. hire the highest cost pilots at each express company by picking in order of seniority 4. get pilots into AC that are essentially trained in the operations of the AC system.

I just find it odd that some people on here put their head in the sand and deny that the PML is in effect or hang their hopes on it being revoked at some point in the future.

[LTD]

I don't think you will see very many military pilots applying to AC

Pilots coming from military are indeed still applying and getting hired at AC. I have seen many hired since the DC pension has been in place, so your assumption is wrong.
They already have a well deserved DB pension from their military service and have AC salary added to their cash flow as well as DC pension savings on top of that. Why wouldn't they apply!!??

AC DC pension isn't as good as the old DB plan and it's true they can't buy back anymore, but it's still as good or better pension than other Canadian airline retirement plans. Where else would they go, and why!?

Hithere, I'm not sure why you say our military pilots would not apply at AC? As far as I know, it's still a great job and one of the best if not the best pilot job in Canada for working conditions.
Respectfully,
Ltd

[pigboat]

Hello

Most of you have missed the reasons AC did this Completely!!!

Back in CCAA , AC was cut up into pieces to Max the profit to our former owner THE THREE HEADED DOG from Hell.

Mr. Rovinescu took the AC regionals (Jazz) which was of little value at that time...and wait for it...got hundreds of millions for it by selling it off with the most lucrative CPA ever seen. The guaranteed profit was 15% which is unheard of in this business.

Cerubus did not care if this was against AC's long term interests. They were just strip mining AC to fill their pockets. It is like selling your car as individual parts; they are worth more as parts than as a whole. Aeroplan, Avios, Jazz were all sold off as stand alone parts. It is ironic and hilarious that the mastermind of this process was Rovinescu himself. He could not have seen that 10 years later he would be back at AC and have to fix his own creation.

AC paid far, far more for its regional feed than anyone in NA or elsewhere. There was no escape clause out of this CPA (created to get quick money for Cerburus) until 2015 and later modified to 2020! No escape short of going bankrupt. This move up to AC was created to get the feeder costs to more realistic costs. It required a deal with the Jazz pilots to get out of the current CPA. This was the main reason and it also gave stability to the AC and Jazz business model moving forward on a long term basis.

It is not a low cost solution! It is not cheaper to take a productive regional pilot and change A/C at AC and hire a replacement at Jazz. Pilots coming to AC get a very large cash uplift for the first 4 years.You can say, paid by Jazz but it comes from the same AC revenue stream.You call it potato and I call it Pattatoe. Many pilots are 40 plus. Two sides to this, lots of experience to reach command positions fast and safely but a fairly short career to spread the training costs over.

My guess, and worth no more than others. After the original move up numbers to AC from Jazz are met; a new reality will happen. I expect they will hire about 50% or slightly more, from the AC feeders to keep the Regional pilots engaged and the rest from Military and Corporate sources as in the previous 80 years. The only thing to be sure of is to be sure of nothing. Circumstances change and can not be predicted.

Cheers, and sorry for the history lesson.

[gtanorth]

Not bad pig boat.

Good logic and history lesson. You didn't cover Sky and GGN into the 705 mix or the need to compete with Encore in Canada and US feeders for US/CAN market.

the number from express hired compared to OTS will most likely not go low enough to incent pilots within express to leave express and still be able to get to AC. I think you did a good job in reasoning but I would like to hear your expanded thoughts on how AC keeps regional costs low going forward. You covered why we started down the path but not the turns the path has taken since CCAA.

Attrition outside of brand needs to be eliminated to be competitive at each Express partner and recruitment into express needs to be desirable to the young people wanting to work at AC.