Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

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TheStig
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by TheStig »

Nirvana wrote: I am not here to irritate anybody. I am entitled to my opinion and lets leave it at that. I have worked in this industry for many years and I think I may have learned a thing or two to along the way. You can disagree all you want and thats fine. Please, keep the insults to yourself.
Nirvana,

I'm not sure what you've read that you've found to be insulting, could you specify?

You're right the $17,000/Year figure is low for Canadian Tier 1 & 2 carriers, but not unrealistic for the US Tier 2, and that is (what I believe the original poster was implying) the direction that pilot wages appear to be headed in Canada.

I did a quick search and scan through your contributions to avcanada and I gather that you're an Air Canada dispatcher? Do you not feel that you could add more to the conversation than trying to start disputes between employee groups? I fully agree dispatchers deserve to earn a healthy paycheque and I've never heard a pilot mention anything about them being overpaid, in fact most feel that the three employee groups with licenses (Pilot, Engineers, and Dispatchers) are all underpaid at AC. ACPA and the pilot group as a whole have gone to great lengths to ensure the viability of the airline in the last 10 years.

As you say you've worked many years in the industry so you should know better than to state that most pilots only work 9-10 days a months for $250,000/Year. When you look at the thousands of pilots with Commercial Licenses in this country, very few pilots' will every be fortunate enough to earn over $200,000/Year at any point in their career, those that do are at the top of the pyramid and generally consider themselves to be very fortunate to be there. However, as another poster alluded to earlier, they've earned it. Getting to Air Canada generally takes a decade of flying working for low wages right after making a HUGE investment in education and training. In fact if you averaged the career earnings of any AC pilot for their first 25 years flying professionally I would have no doubt that the figure would be less than $100,000/year. So you'll have to excuse us pilots for being concerned about the downward pressure on our pay.
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Nirvana
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Nirvana »

TheStig wrote:
Nirvana wrote: I am not here to irritate anybody. I am entitled to my opinion and lets leave it at that. I have worked in this industry for many years and I think I may have learned a thing or two to along the way. You can disagree all you want and thats fine. Please, keep the insults to yourself.
Nirvana,

I'm not sure what you've read that you've found to be insulting, could you specify?

You're right the $17,000/Year figure is low for Canadian Tier 1 & 2 carriers, but not unrealistic for the US Tier 2, and that is (what I believe the original poster was implying) the direction that pilot wages appear to be headed in Canada.

I did a quick search and scan through your contributions to avcanada and I gather that you're an Air Canada dispatcher? Do you not feel that you could add more to the conversation than trying to start disputes between employee groups? I fully agree dispatchers deserve to earn a healthy paycheque and I've never heard a pilot mention anything about them being overpaid, in fact most feel that the three employee groups with licenses (Pilot, Engineers, and Dispatchers) are all underpaid at AC. ACPA and the pilot group as a whole have gone to great lengths to ensure the viability of the airline in the last 10 years.

As you say you've worked many years in the industry so you should know better than to state that most pilots only work 9-10 days a months for $250,000/Year. When you look at the thousands of pilots with Commercial Licenses in this country, very few pilots' will every be fortunate enough to earn over $200,000/Year at any point in their career, those that do are at the top of the pyramid and generally consider themselves to be very fortunate to be there. However, as another poster alluded to earlier, they've earned it. Getting to Air Canada generally takes a decade of flying working for low wages right after making a HUGE investment in education and training. In fact if you averaged the career earnings of any AC pilot for their first 25 years flying professionally I would have no doubt that the figure would be less than $100,000/year. So you'll have to excuse us pilots for being concerned about the downward pressure on our pay.
Not a dispatcher. Look, maybe I was playing devil's advocate. I think we can all agree that pay has been declining over the years. There are so many people working in this industry and working hard and getting terrible renumeration. Anyway, did not post to start a fight. Next topic please.
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Mach1
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Mach1 »

I agree, we will disagree on the subject. However, I had no idea calling someone an office worker was an insult. And yes, I am a joy to fly with.

Now, Cry me a river... a little insulting. Not a personal one, so I will stand by what I said about the disdain in a comment like that.
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by rudder »

Rockie wrote:There's just one problem with Air Canada's thinking, they're assuming there will be regional pilots in the states to take Canadian flying. All those guys forced to go to 65 because the robber barons stole their pensions are starting to retire. The aggregate age of the pilots flying for the majors in the USA is very high, and they're starting to leave the industry in huge numbers leaving the regionals holding the bag. The amount of people entering the industry has plummeted because who wants to make $17,000 a year after shelling out massive amounts for training? Now the Americans have implemented the 1500 hour rule because of Colgan.

This should be fun to watch...except for the smoking craters caused by airline management who think pilots are bus drivers and proper training and experience doesn't matter.
At some point we will reach a point where the corp that has control or access to skilled ATP qualified pilot labour will have the competitive advantage over airlines that do not. Have we reached that point yet? Probably not, but we are getting close. Just witness the difficulty that Encore is having filling seats with experienced pilots.

Jazz employs the second largest pilot force in Canada. As AC makes the future less and less secure for Jazz pilots they will move on to opportunities that offer more security and most will end up working for the competition (to AC). Now is the time for AC to consider whether maintaining that pool of experienced and qualified pilot labour leaves them with an advantage or not. Most recent actions would suggest not and everybody knows that a disenfranchised employee is the competition's greatest asset.

Proper strategic planning for AC should not be the next 2-3 years but instead the next decade. And perhaps more importantly, who will have the pilots available to meet their own corporate growth plans.
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MartinB
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by MartinB »

Rockie wrote: This should be fun to watch...except for the smoking craters caused by airline management who think pilots are bus drivers and proper training and experience doesn't matter.
Sorry but my dad is a greyhound driver and he makes 70k a year. A more appropriate thing to say would be the following: Airline management thinks pilots are school janitors or window cleaners.
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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

I wonder if you are a professional pilot or just here to irritate people. Maybe if you got paid 20k/year your opinion would change dramatically??[/quote]


I am not here to irritate anybody. I am entitled to my opinion and lets leave it at that. I have worked in this industry for many years and I think I may have learned a thing or two to along the way. You can disagree all you want and thats fine. Please, keep the insults to yourself.[/quote]


Haha...Cry me a river! You should try to step out of your bubble!
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Rumors
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Rumors »

rudder wrote:
Rockie wrote:There's just one problem with Air Canada's thinking, they're assuming there will be regional pilots in the states to take Canadian flying. All those guys forced to go to 65 because the robber barons stole their pensions are starting to retire. The aggregate age of the pilots flying for the majors in the USA is very high, and they're starting to leave the industry in huge numbers leaving the regionals holding the bag. The amount of people entering the industry has plummeted because who wants to make $17,000 a year after shelling out massive amounts for training? Now the Americans have implemented the 1500 hour rule because of Colgan.

This should be fun to watch...except for the smoking craters caused by airline management who think pilots are bus drivers and proper training and experience doesn't matter.
At some point we will reach a point where the corp that has control or access to skilled ATP qualified pilot labour will have the competitive advantage over airlines that do not. Have we reached that point yet? Probably not, but we are getting close. Just witness the difficulty that Encore is having filling seats with experienced pilots.

Jazz employs the second largest pilot force in Canada. As AC makes the future less and less secure for Jazz pilots they will move on to opportunities that offer more security and most will end up working for the competition (to AC). Now is the time for AC to consider whether maintaining that pool of experienced and qualified pilot labour leaves them with an advantage or not. Most recent actions would suggest not and everybody knows that a disenfranchised employee is the competition's greatest asset.

Proper strategic planning for AC should not be the next 2-3 years but instead the next decade. And perhaps more importantly, who will have the pilots available to meet their own corporate growth plans.
Rudder,

You seem to be pretty knowledgable.

If you were part of ACPA/ALPA leadrship(maybe you are) what would you do?

What would be your game plan?
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Skyblazer
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Skyblazer »

Can ENCORE submit a proposal


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by rudder »

Rumors wrote:
Rudder,

You seem to be pretty knowledgable.

If you were part of ACPA/ALPA leadrship(maybe you are) what would you do?

What would be your game plan?
1. Start talking to each other

2. Start talking to the ultimate corporate decision maker.

3. Develop a strategic plan that creates better outcomes for all concerned (including the corporation)

4. Keep the membership informed and educate them as to why a tripartite solution is the best long term source of prosperity, opportunity, and job security.

5. Implement the plan and conquer the world :D


Imagine being the first CEO of a major airline that did not have to constantly accept less than optimal fleet deployment scenarios or diminished market flexibility due to scope of work restrictions and jurisdictional constraints. And all of this could come from working with a motivated, proactive and enlightened pilot work force.
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cpt.sam
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by cpt.sam »

Fanblade wrote:Again. The US regional thing is almost guaranteed to be a red Herring. It is mentioned only to encourage the Canadian bidders even lower.

This CPA carrier would have to abide by the Air Canada Partisipatioin act. IOW provide French on many routes.

It is also true US regional wages are likely bouncing off the floor.

However, although it is true Canadian Regional wages are better than the US, I would suggest that the reason they are better is simply because of the high bar the AC regionals have set. Once that bar is reduced to a new lower normal the rest will respond in kind as they compete with each other.

In fact that is exactly what we are watching right now. First SR. Then Encore. Now..... These CEO's will keep one downing each other until the market doesn't provide applicants.

I guess CEO's are on a reverse commision?
The more they take from Pilots, Cabin Crew, Rampies.....The higher their bonuses?
I almost had to change my drawers when I saw a report on airlines' bottom lines, and their respective CEO's salaries and bonus schedules!
I'll try to find it again, and post it!
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Rumors
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Rumors »

rudder wrote:
Rumors wrote:
Rudder,

You seem to be pretty knowledgable.

If you were part of ACPA/ALPA leadrship(maybe you are) what would you do?

What would be your game plan?
1. Start talking to each other

2. Start talking to the ultimate corporate decision maker.

3. Develop a strategic plan that creates better outcomes for all concerned (including the corporation)

4. Keep the membership informed and educate them as to why a tripartite solution is the best long term source of prosperity, opportunity, and job security.

5. Implement the plan and conquer the world :D


Imagine being the first CEO of a major airline that did not have to constantly accept less than optimal fleet deployment scenarios or diminished market flexibility due to scope of work restrictions and jurisdictional constraints. And all of this could come from working with a motivated, proactive and enlightened pilot work force.
Do you really think in the world of Air Canada the ultimate decision maker would entertain something like this?

Do you really believe the scope rules fleet deployment restrictions on them(are there even that many now) mean that much more to them in where it would be proper to be onside with labor?

It looks like they're managing the situation pretty good from the ringside seats.

Divide and conquer.
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by rudder »

Rumors wrote:
Do you really think in the world of Air Canada the ultimate decision maker would entertain something like this?

Do you really believe the scope rules fleet deployment restrictions on them(are there even that many now) mean that much more to them in where it would be proper to be onside with labor?

It looks like they're managing the situation pretty good from the ringside seats.

Divide and conquer.
AC is managing things pretty good within the constraints that still exist and as a result the best case scenario is an imperfect outcome.

Best example is that AC asks arbitrator for 319's at Rouge. Arbitrator gives it to them. Now AC realizes that is not cost effective and asks ACPA for permission to operate 320's at Rouge instead. This puts ACPA back in the driver's seat and in the corporation's case demonstrates the axiom "be careful what you wish for".

AC will continue pursuing the optimal solution but will never achieve it due to the commercial, industrial, and operational restrictions that populate the convoluted operation that AC is creating (multiple partners, paint jobs, operating certificates, etc). And this is all being done for one simple purpose - to get around organized labour.

Whomever can partner with labour will have a trump card that no other carrier has. WJ is part way there and relies on the fact that AC is so constrained. Imagine a world where AC is no longer constrained? That is WJ worst nightmare.
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Captain S itmagnet
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Captain S itmagnet »

Nirvana wrote:

Yes they do.....Pilots at Air Canada and Jazz, Georgian, Sky Regional also make more(way more) than 17K....I don't mind the arguement, but please compare apples to apples. Show me a GP or Lawyer that make's $250,000 for working 9 days a month at 15hrs a day....sorry, don't buy it. Based on a widebody at AC.....current rates. Plus, there is nobody making 17K or even less than that at the regionals in this country...post the facts....not what you think it is. At the professional level, pilots are very well compensated for what they do. As far as professional level, I make reference to 2nd even 3rd tier up to mainline. They may have taken pay cuts as has every one else, but its a damn good paying job for the hours worked. Cry me a river!

*******************************************

The myths and misperceptions continue to exist. An 80 or so credit month still equates to (at least) a 40-hour work week. There are valid arguments that it's even longer.
As far as paying less-than-poverty level wages to starry-eyed rookie pilots, you get exactly what you pay for. In Canada we should take pride in having a air transportation system with an exemplary safety record, particularly when you consider the vastness of the country. For bonus points add varying types of terrain, weather, and remoteness of much of the country and that makes the record even more impressive. Any bean-counter willing to consider chipping away at this is doing nothing more than rolling the dice that something horrific and graphic like the Colgan event does not happen. Now whatever you have supposedly "saved" in costs goes to legal/liability costs instead, and could very well spell the downfall of a carrier. Numerous examples exist of a notorious wreck bringing down a company. Not much of a saving in most of our eyes.
I would like to ask if those making the decision to go "lowest bidder" would be comfortable having their families travel on a flight operated by a crew with the (lack of) experience, training, rest, and decision-making capabilities that the Colgan flight cited had. But then they would find a way to quickly weasel out of an honest answer!
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Rockie »

rudder wrote:And all of this could come from working with a motivated, proactive and enlightened pilot work force.
A motivated, proactive and enlightened pilot workforce doesn't just happen. It has to be created and nurtured by an enlightened management that values the people working for them.

Does that sound like Air Canada?
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MeAndMrPenguin
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by MeAndMrPenguin »

Let's put the Doctor comparison away. Doctors make top dollar the first day after residency. So, from age 26 or later it's good money. Career earnings are not close. Lawyers work their way up but on average make more than pilots over a career.
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by rudder »

Rockie wrote:
rudder wrote:And all of this could come from working with a motivated, proactive and enlightened pilot work force.
A motivated, proactive and enlightened pilot workforce doesn't just happen. It has to be created and nurtured by an enlightened management that values the people working for them.

Does that sound like Air Canada?
If it doesn't start with management then it should start with the union leadership.

It is easier to blame others than to roll up your sleeves and do the work.

There are still items on the corporate wish list that were left off of the YOW arb process result. That would suggest that there is still a party interested in having a conversation (for example the 320 substitutions at Rouge).

Nobody has a greater vested interest in the solvency and viability of an airline than the employees, particularly the employees in seniority ruled positions. Just take a look at what is happening at air Transat. The corporation has a plan but the pilots seem to be bearing the brunt of implementation. Perhaps there is more that could have been done if the pilots were part if the planning process rather than just part of the audience?

I will say this again - the first major airline CEO that successfully partners with pilot labour will be able to move the company miles ahead of the competition.
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genetic jack hammer
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by genetic jack hammer »

Rudder,
Would this be a good time for the Jazz Pilot group to stop trying to providing AC with our exceptional (take that with a grain of salt) OTP? Hasn't done us any good, although i'm sure management is loving it $$$$. It seems like as of lately, everyday there's another kick in the gonads given to us.
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Rockie »

rudder wrote:If it doesn't start with management then it should start with the union leadership.
It's been tried many times. Every attempt at fostering a better relationship with this management has been exploited resulting in further steps back that are never recovered. This company takes, and takes, and takes, and never gives back. Their collusion with a federal government hostile to labour ensures we can't take anything back either.

The trust is gone. Dead. Finito. Kaput.
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Mig29
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Mig29 »

One morning you wake up and think that the industry is in the recovery stages, and then the next you read the news and it's all going down hill.....

Makes me wonder why, have we (pilots) lost the touch with reality and have lost the courage, leadership, unity and comradery to just stand up and say enough is enough. Then I realize that I'm still day dreaming :rolleyes:
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by rudder »

genetic jack hammer wrote:Rudder,
Would this be a good time for the Jazz Pilot group to stop trying to providing AC with our exceptional (take that with a grain of salt) OTP? Hasn't done us any good, although i'm sure management is loving it $$$$. It seems like as of lately, everyday there's another kick in the gonads given to us.
The only party that can stop the decline in Jazz block hours the near term is the CHR BOD by offering AC to reduce the margin being charged. The rest is just window dressing.

After that the parties need to have a real conversation about the future focusing in particular on fleet. CHR would be best served to focus on increasing the number of 75 seat aircraft under its control and in service. By agreeing to finance these aircraft CHR allows AC to expand its 75 seat aircraft fleet without putting any additional pressure on its own balance sheet. AC has put a bullseye on the below 75 seat fleet at Jazz and that is where most of the bloodletting is going to occur. Partly through replacement by larger guage and partly through reassignment.
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Mig29
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Mig29 »

rudder wrote:The only party that can stop the decline in Jazz block hours the near term is the CHR BOD by offering AC to reduce the margin being charged. The rest is just window dressing.
Very good point.

But it's the hardest one to implement, because reducing this margin, automatically reduces company's revenue. Hence the reduction in BOD's salaries/bonuses/profit sharing etc. You and I are clearly seeing the advantage for doing this, as it secures jobs in the long run (not just for Jazz pilots, but all Jazz employees).

Problem is, these guys don't see it and/or just don't care. Correct me if I'm wrong...
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47north
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by 47north »

genetic jack hammer wrote: Would this be a good time for the Jazz Pilot group to stop trying to providing AC with our exceptional (take that with a grain of salt) OTP? Hasn't done us any good, although i'm sure management is loving it $$$$. It seems like as of lately, everyday there's another kick in the gonads given to us.
The worst thing that the Jazz pilot group could do at the moment is to stop trying to maintain exceptional OTP;and it has been exceptional lately. Poor OTP has a real cost and that in turn would simply make the lift more expensive for AC, exasperating the situation. Poor performance has cost CPA carriers in the US flying, even when they were cheaper. Think Mesa.

A better approach is to continue to maintain OTP and reduce costs to AC where possible. At least that provides another factor with which to negotiate with in the future. Look at Sky now. Their OTP is less than stellar and any new Canadian entrant will likely be the same.
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genetic jack hammer
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by genetic jack hammer »

47north wrote:
genetic jack hammer wrote: Would this be a good time for the Jazz Pilot group to stop trying to providing AC with our exceptional (take that with a grain of salt) OTP? Hasn't done us any good, although i'm sure management is loving it $$$$. It seems like as of lately, everyday there's another kick in the gonads given to us.
The worst thing that the Jazz pilot group could do at the moment is to stop trying to maintain exceptional OTP;and it has been exceptional lately. Poor OTP has a real cost and that in turn would simply make the lift more expensive for AC, exasperating the situation. Poor performance has cost CPA carriers in the US flying, even when they were cheaper. Think Mesa.

A better approach is to continue to maintain OTP and reduce costs to AC where possible. At least that provides another factor with which to negotiate with in the future. Look at Sky now. Their OTP is less than stellar and any new Canadian entrant will likely be the same.
Thx 47 north,
I absolutely understand what you're saying. Flying the line, you can sense that employee moral is just getting lower and lower, more and more as the weeks go by. Some guys don't care about OTP. But it's a nasty catch-22 that AC has us in. Our OTP obviously reflects in AC's bottom line (after all, we do 800+ flights a day). So their bottom line looks good. If our OTP starts to tank, doesn't start to look so good and we're told that we're too expensive. Either way, we're too expensive to them, good OTP or bad OTP.
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volez
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by volez »

Hey gents,

What do you guys think of the College of Professional Pilots of Canada which would in the end allow us to unite as a one and unique group ?

http://www.collegeofpilots.ca
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cpt.sam
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by cpt.sam »

rudder wrote:
Rumors wrote:
Rudder,

You seem to be pretty knowledgable.

If you were part of ACPA/ALPA leadrship(maybe you are) what would you do?

What would be your game plan?
1. Start talking to each other

2. Start talking to the ultimate corporate decision maker.

3. Develop a strategic plan that creates better outcomes for all concerned (including the corporation)

4. Keep the membership informed and educate them as to why a tripartite solution is the best long term source of prosperity, opportunity, and job security.

5. Implement the plan and conquer the world :D


Imagine being the first CEO of a major airline that did not have to constantly accept less than optimal fleet deployment scenarios or diminished market flexibility due to scope of work restrictions and jurisdictional constraints. And all of this could come from working with a motivated, proactive and enlightened pilot work force.
A very blunt view, I know...
The three groups of under paid employees; Engineers, Dispatchers, and Drivers....
These are the three groups that do the MOST every day to insure SAFE and EFFICIENT airline operations. Now, I'm not discounting the efforts and concerns of others, such as agents and flight attendants, but the three mains are there.
AC has how many hundreds of "managers"?
How many corporate officials?
How many millions did CR get in bonuses last year?
I see most of this problem as greed at the top!
NO, I don't think I am capable of taking CR's position and gliding AC to perfectly streamlined ops, but I'm damned sure someone, rather some group, of people could operate an airline just as good ( or gooder ) and take less from the employees and more from executives!
I don't know really, I'm a pilot not an executive... But does anyone else see this?
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