China_CAAC's Merged Threads

[tbaylx]

Duplicate

[B757FO]

Happy to hear that we'll be getting some experienced guys as new captains. We can use the help and it will make the training and the upgrades much easier if we have guys that know the operation and the 737. I can't speak for everyone but I'm personally not fussed where I sit on the whole seniority ladder, especially since we don't really bid on anything currently and likely when we do it will be some form of socialized bidding.
I don't see much point in being negative and crying about work, you either like/accept it or you fix it or you move on. Whinging endlessly won't get you far.

So I have some questions then....

If it doesn’t matter will it in September? Are you certain you will get to keep your left seat? If so why did the arbitrator add the option to do otherwise in the decision. Your seniority could land you right seat swoop or right seat encore. Maybe it could land you left seat swoop if no one bids it. Don’t you agree?

What was the answer at your ceo meeting last weekend when the question of position security was raised? What did the ceo tell you? Did he guarantee it? No of course he didn’t. He can’t.

Will you be complaining or whining if you get sent to the right seat? Or crying as you suggest? Will you file a grievance to Alpa about it?

You again are speaking like you are in a position of authority or one of which you feel you are untouchable and locked in your seat. Do you deny the fact you could be sent to right seat? I’ll accept the fact that if Kaplan says you stay in your seat you stay in your seat. I won’t bitch or cry. I’ll accept it. Again if Kaplan was certain of you keeping the position why didn’t he do it in the order? Because he needs time to figure out what to do with you guys.

I’ve moved past personal hatred towards you guys because like you said the positions became available to ots and you took them. I blame all parties in this mess. We literally have done a big circle and ended up here.

If you can hold the seat with your seniority then I’ll welcome it with open arms.

Don’t you agree with that ? Goes both ways?

I am absolutely not certain that i'll keep the position come September, and no one can guarantee that, certainly not our CEO, nor has he. Since we chose not to certify ourselves early on we now find ourselves represented by ALPA and on the seniority list. I'm pretty sure that I couldn't grieve it and even if I could I'm not very confident in "our" MEC representing my interests given everything I've seen here on this forum and elsewhere.

It's going to be up to the arbitrator how that plays out so I'll not worry too much about it and see what comes in the fall. I personally don't think it's likely that he will reverse his current position, but it's certainly quite possible. If I find myself in the right seat then I'll have a look at the terms and conditions that come with the position and make my decision on what I'll do then. In the meantime I'm not losing any sleep over it and am going to enjoy working with an exciting new startup and deal with the challenges that come with that.

Just a heads up, you may want to tell your guys on your internal forum who aren't over it that flipping the bird to a Swoop pilot as he taxis by may not be the best career move. You never know who might be operating that aircraft, it could be a chief pilot, DFO or other upper management who may not take kindly to that sort of thing. Be pissed off if you want but try and keep it professional. No one wants to see someone lose a job or get made an example of. Same thing for personal social media accounts.

Well tbaylx I will say you and I agree on something. I don’t think flicking the bird to swoops planes is good either but not from a threat of flicking management off. But from a professional stand point it shouldnt be be done. Did that actually happen with the bird on the weekend?

[tbaylx]

So I have some questions then....

If it doesn’t matter will it in September? Are you certain you will get to keep your left seat? If so why did the arbitrator add the option to do otherwise in the decision. Your seniority could land you right seat swoop or right seat encore. Maybe it could land you left seat swoop if no one bids it. Don’t you agree?

What was the answer at your ceo meeting last weekend when the question of position security was raised? What did the ceo tell you? Did he guarantee it? No of course he didn’t. He can’t.

Will you be complaining or whining if you get sent to the right seat? Or crying as you suggest? Will you file a grievance to Alpa about it?

You again are speaking like you are in a position of authority or one of which you feel you are untouchable and locked in your seat. Do you deny the fact you could be sent to right seat? I’ll accept the fact that if Kaplan says you stay in your seat you stay in your seat. I won’t bitch or cry. I’ll accept it. Again if Kaplan was certain of you keeping the position why didn’t he do it in the order? Because he needs time to figure out what to do with you guys.

I’ve moved past personal hatred towards you guys because like you said the positions became available to ots and you took them. I blame all parties in this mess. We literally have done a big circle and ended up here.

If you can hold the seat with your seniority then I’ll welcome it with open arms.

Don’t you agree with that ? Goes both ways?

I am absolutely not certain that i'll keep the position come September, and no one can guarantee that, certainly not our CEO, nor has he. Since we chose not to certify ourselves early on we now find ourselves represented by ALPA and on the seniority list. I'm pretty sure that I couldn't grieve it and even if I could I'm not very confident in "our" MEC representing my interests given everything I've seen here on this forum and elsewhere.

It's going to be up to the arbitrator how that plays out so I'll not worry too much about it and see what comes in the fall. I personally don't think it's likely that he will reverse his current position, but it's certainly quite possible. If I find myself in the right seat then I'll have a look at the terms and conditions that come with the position and make my decision on what I'll do then. In the meantime I'm not losing any sleep over it and am going to enjoy working with an exciting new startup and deal with the challenges that come with that.

Just a heads up, you may want to tell your guys on your internal forum who aren't over it that flipping the bird to a Swoop pilot as he taxis by may not be the best career move. You never know who might be operating that aircraft, it could be a chief pilot, DFO or other upper management who may not take kindly to that sort of thing. Be pissed off if you want but try and keep it professional. No one wants to see someone lose a job or get made an example of. Same thing for personal social media accounts.

Well tbaylx I will say you and I agree on something. I don’t think flicking the bird to swoops planes is good either but not from a threat of flicking management off. But from a professional stand point it shouldnt be be done. Did that actually happen with the bird on the weekend?

Yes.

[J Roc]

Well, all this background noise aside, that is not cool and will NEVER be tolerated from a member of my crew.

[J Roc]

Hahahaha.....you are getting FO's that have never held a 705 capt seat as initial upgrades at Swoop.

Good luck, especially with a certain one who was awarded YHM CA.

This "certain one" you speak of will have to make it through the WJ upgrade. Our upgrade process will "weed out all non-hackers, who do not pack the gear to serve in my beloved Corps".

WJ trainers are the best - this "certain one" won't find the forth bar waiting for him/her at the gate.

*edit* I'm assuming WJ training department will do the swoop upgrades now - given the common employer status. However, I'm not 100% sure...

We're all aware of the extra scrutiny on the airline as a start up and given the background noise. Transport Canada has been doing all the PPC's to date. Anyone who passed met the PPC standard. Anyone not capable of being in the left seat after passing a PPC will be weeded out during line indoc, same as they would be at mainline or any other 705 operator.

I wasn't really referring to the TC mandated PPC. That was the least of my concerns during the WJ upgrade process. Most people wash out prior to that anyways.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not willing anything negative on the soon to be swoop upgrades. I was merely pointing out to Donald that the WJ process will weed out those not ready for the forth bar.

[jjj]

The bypass positions have been awarded and the newly announced Captain positions at Swoop have been filled internally. New FO vacancies will be filled by Encore.

Lots of talented people to keep you company Tbaylx. The original OTS pilots who undercut us will be outnumbered by the fall. Your island is shrinking. Enjoy “life by the numbers” or so the saying goes. Seniority will keep the original OTS guys wedged into a hole. I give it six months before they become the biggest cry babies in the company.

Fly safely everyone.

Still at it jjj? I doubt that they will surpass some of you as the biggest cry babies and whiners. Your company is a mess, you have been screwed over by you management and union and yet you continue on.

Still haven't looked in that mirror as to where some of the blame may lie, yet have you?

Eyebrow,

Please elaborate on what my contribution is to the aforementioned items.

Can't wait to hear this.

JJJ

[tbaylx]

This "certain one" you speak of will have to make it through the WJ upgrade. Our upgrade process will "weed out all non-hackers, who do not pack the gear to serve in my beloved Corps".

WJ trainers are the best - this "certain one" won't find the forth bar waiting for him/her at the gate.

*edit* I'm assuming WJ training department will do the swoop upgrades now - given the common employer status. However, I'm not 100% sure...

We're all aware of the extra scrutiny on the airline as a start up and given the background noise. Transport Canada has been doing all the PPC's to date. Anyone who passed met the PPC standard. Anyone not capable of being in the left seat after passing a PPC will be weeded out during line indoc, same as they would be at mainline or any other 705 operator.

I wasn't really referring to the TC mandated PPC. That was the least of my concerns during the WJ upgrade process. Most people wash out prior to that anyways.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not willing anything negative on the soon to be swoop upgrades. I was merely pointing out to Donald that the WJ process will weed out those not ready for the forth bar.

Whether it's the Swoop process or Westjet process I can assure you no one here wants someone in the left seat of a Swoop aircraft that isn't ready or suited for that role. Moving forward experience levels are only going to get lower in the flight deck and we need solid operators making decisions in command of the aircraft.

[jjj]

Totally uncool/unprofessional that somebody flipped the bird.

Emotions get in the way of brains sometimes - with that in mind the reaction is understandable. Hopefully things don't escalate any more.

Self-serving choices get in the way of common morals sometimes - with that in mind don't act all surprised when somebody you f'd over has something to say or do about it.

I'll keep my digits to myself - mouth and jumpseat closed.

Fly safe Swoopsters.

JJJ

[jjj]

Happy to hear that we'll be getting some experienced guys as new captains. We can use the help and it will make the training and the upgrades much easier if we have guys that know the operation and the 737.

Hahahaha.....you are getting FO's that have never held a 705 capt seat as initial upgrades at Swoop.

Good luck, especially with a certain one who was awarded YHM CA.

I’m more worried about the Swoop skipper who used to sit left seat at Sunwing before getting bounced down to the right. The ones that slither by tend to cause a lot of trouble in a big way one day. I can think of examples from Navajos to airliners over the years.

The totally unqualified guy simply won’t make a recommend for a ride. When things aren’t messy - everyone gets vetted over the years which is why we have pilots banished to the right seat.

DECs don’t get vetted as well. Desperation on behalf of the employer gives them the path to slither in and that’s the sort of thing that keeps me up at night.

As a betting man I would gladly take any random 8 year WS FO over a DEC.



Fly safe everyone.

[RidersRule]

We're all aware of the extra scrutiny on the airline as a start up and given the background noise. Transport Canada has been doing all the PPC's to date. Anyone who passed met the PPC standard. Anyone not capable of being in the left seat after passing a PPC will be weeded out during line indoc, same as they would be at mainline or any other 705 operator.

I wasn't really referring to the TC mandated PPC. That was the least of my concerns during the WJ upgrade process. Most people wash out prior to that anyways.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not willing anything negative on the soon to be swoop upgrades. I was merely pointing out to Donald that the WJ process will weed out those not ready for the forth bar.

Whether it's the Swoop process or Westjet process I can assure you no one here wants someone in the left seat of a Swoop aircraft that isn't ready or suited for that role.

True. Heck, there’s even a large majority of us that don’t want someone out of seniority in that role as well.

[Transonic]

I personally don't think it's likely that he will reverse his current position, but it's certainly quite possible.

Have you guys ran the numbers on the cost of bypass pay so that you can keep your seats?

If the bypass pay equates to a 20$ uplift per FO, its 930hrs x20$ x26 positions = 486 600$/yr. At 40$, its $967 200/yr.

A 40$ uplift could be and hopefully conservative. Hypothetically, if the future award year 1 Swoop CA pay is a modest 140$/hrs, that's a 40-60hr uplift for the present 26 bypass FOs which will cost approx. 1.2 million/yr.

As mentioned before, not very ultra low cost.

My thoughts, I don't think the arbitrator will get to rule on this. In the final negotiations, WestJet will have thrown you under the bus to save a nickel. Welcome to the club.

[RidersRule]

.

[Tango Niner]

Wouldn’t that be something. The Scab pilots that WestJet hired for one of the lowest 737 rates in the world at $103/ hr get removed by the company because they cost too much.

Alanis Morissette Might have to write a new verse to her song...

“Isn’t it ironic, don’t you think...”

Can we do away with the "scab" label for these guys.

I'm a longtime WestJetter and I'm not happy with how things went down either - but I've never had much animosity towards the initial Swoop pilots. What's the point? A 737 job came up in Canada, they took it. Did they know what they were wading into? Probably, yes. But in the end - an available job was filled, no picket lines were crossed. They're not scabs. Blame the company for setting up the awkward situation - not so much the pilots that went for it. IMHO.

[RidersRule]

.

[yyc757]

Ridersrule friggen awesome man. Keep it up.

[Demeter]

Yup. I’m only assuming it’s someone who lives in say Sask and commutes to YYZ that has a big chip that likes to chirp well time to get off the computer. I’m only at 12261 steps today

[RidersRule]

Yup. I’m only assuming it’s someone who lives in say Sask and commutes to YYZ that has a big chip that likes to chirp well time to get off the computer. I’m only at 12261 steps today

?

Don’t follow.

[RidersRule]

Ridersrule friggen awesome man. Keep it up.

Like shooting fish In a barrel lol

[RidersRule]

Yup. I’m only assuming it’s someone who lives in say Sask and commutes to YYZ that has a big chip that likes to chirp well time to get off the computer. I’m only at 12261 steps today

?

Don’t follow.

You best get in your steps fatty

[WeedPro2000]

Nope. They are scabs. Plain and simple.

But I am a forgiving man. If anyone of them wants to come out and say, “Once WestJet has its own pilots trained up by order of seniority, I will voluntarily go to the right seat as a show of respect to the WestJet pilot group”.

That would be noble and admirable. Beers on me.

Anyone....Anyone....Beuler....Beuler

I’ll repeat what I told Russ M to you. Anyone I hear denying the jumpseat to Swoop pilots will be banned from riding in my jumpseat. That’s the gift that ALPA brings... unity.

Get off yer high horse.

John Swallow