One List

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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:28 pm

kiaszceski wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:16 pm
cloak wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:18 pm
Air Canada and all other major airlines have no flow
Yes they have, Jazz and AC has a 90% agreement.
Delta has one with Endeavor.
United has one with Commutair/ExpressJet.

However I agree Sunwing or Air Transat doesn't have any, but you need at least 2000hrs to apply.

What do you mean by "better career progression" when not talking about flowing to mainline?
Jazz flow is at 65% I believe and Sky Regional even less. Air Canada seems to take more from Porter than Sky. And the flow is AFTER an interview and as mentioned to the bottom of their list and at flat pay. Not sure if Jazz still has some top up.

Still it's not as good as WestJet which has flow too, also to the bottom of the list but with no interviews, plus top up pay. So it's a better deal because it's guaranteed.

Career progression as more movements and upgrades like Air Canada where new hires can fly WB aircraft, imo not that it's worth much because they still make the same crappy pay! But pilots still take those jobs. That's why flow is not the problem. More importantly recruitment at the regional level is not the duty and burden of the mainline pilots at any airline around the world. So no more guilting the WestJet pilots!

I believe however major expansion is on the horizon at WestJet, just awaiting the Onex deal and Max situation. Once that happens there'll be meaningful growth.
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Mr. North
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Re: One List

Post by Mr. North » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:08 pm

This thread is chalk FULL of misinformation and people trying to rewrite history. I'm not going to pick through all the BS and correct everything (I thank JBI for that) but I will say I am absolutely disgusted with how everything surrounding the one list played out although I can't say I'm all that surprised.

I worked closely with the Encore MEC for the better part of two years. Throughout that entire time, whenever I interacted with mainline MEC they never failed to impress upon us that, as teal pilots, "WE NEED TO STAND TOGETHER" and that when the time comes "WE WILL PROTECT THE ONE LIST". Every single one of them was of that opinion (or at least shook our hands and said so to our face). We can argue the one list legalese until we're blue in the face, but there is no denying the intent of both parties to protect the shared list or what was essentially the career trajectory of Encore pilots.

As separate bargaining units, neither could resolve a joint seniority list through their own negotiations. It had to be a three way agreement after the fact. Some people argue over the constitutionality of such an agreement which would be unique among other ALPA carriers. When I questioned Joe Depete (among other ALPA brass) over the viability of such an agreement, he (and others) remarked that any arrangement is possible so long as "the pilots want it". The recalling of Rob and the election of Tim to ALPA Canada President did not help the cause. Their successors on the MEC (for reasons I don't fully understand) asked their pilots to vote on a flawed replacement for the one list. Was that really the best they could offer? And if so, where was the unity narrative that had been so prevalent up to that point? The banging of the drum?! It may not have been the ideal flow up/flow down agreement but it would have kept everyone together, and improve from there. Instead there was a total absence of communication or direction from the MEC, which allowed OTS hires (who were always better off yet still stood to gain) to whip up enough fear. Voter apathy accomplished the rest.

The idea of revisiting the one list now and putting it to a vote, already once rejected, does not give me confidence in it's success. If by chance a new version does pass, it will most certainly be grieved (and with better grounds than if it had passed the first time).

Whatever side of the fence you're on there's a good deal of uncertainty with team teal; Onex, Swoop, the Sunwing deal, etc. Whatever unfolds in the years ahead, there will always be 500+ young pilots to whom the definition of "unity" means getting thrown under the bus. Expect them to take whatever leg up they can get and pass on anything that doesn't benefit them directly... for the next 20+ years. Don't believe me? Just look at AC. Guys over here are still talking about getting "what's owed them". But hey, who cares?!

If there is anything I hate more than this industry, it's the childlike mentality most of us have when it comes to our profession.
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Re: One List

Post by Freeport_Flyer » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:23 pm

cloak wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:28 pm


I believe however major expansion is on the horizon at WestJet, just awaiting the Onex deal and Max situation. Once that happens there'll be meaningful growth.
I would hope there would be some expansion and growth! Last numbers I heard were 9 years to upgrade on the 737, 15 years to sit right seat on a 787. I imagine the 767's will go away at some point and all those senior folks will slide back down the list into those sweet 787s! Onex will have to bring in a lot of aircraft for meaningful expansion. In contrast, Air Canada has 102 wide bodies alone between Mainline and Rouge. Pilots are going off the Indoc course DCT to RP spots or right seat. Although, those going right seat will be on reserve FOREVER!!! The flat pay sucks but year 5 FO on a wide body make $140k base rate, before those sweet overseas per diems and premium pay for night flying! Yr 5 RPs doing about $100k base and working 9-12 days a month all overseas (read lots more money). If you go narrow body at Air Canada you'll upgrade to the left seat in 2-3 years. Sure, you'll be on reserve again, but who cares!?!? You're getting close to $180k base rate I'm sure!

There will have to be immense expansion to get close to those numbers and timelines. In the mean time, I'd be curious to know how many folks have left WJ (WJ, Swoop, Encore) for Air Canada this year.

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/hom ... fleet.html
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Re: One List

Post by cloak » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:34 am

Freeport_Flyer wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:23 pm

I would hope there would be some expansion and growth! Last numbers I heard were 9 years to upgrade on the 737, 15 years to sit right seat on a 787. I imagine the 767's will go away at some point and all those senior folks will slide back down the list into those sweet 787s! Onex will have to bring in a lot of aircraft for meaningful expansion. In contrast, Air Canada has 102 wide bodies alone between Mainline and Rouge....

There will have to be immense expansion to get close to those numbers and timelines. In the mean time, I'd be curious to know how many folks have left WJ (WJ, Swoop, Encore) for Air Canada this year.

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/hom ... fleet.html
You are absolutely correct. The growth is the difference, not a flow agreement of sort, and that was my point. If you compare the fleet numbers from 4-5 years ago at Air Canada, it will become clear what substantial growth has taken place. Almost the entire Rouge fleet is new growth, and more. The same level can take place at WestJet with Onex. Using your example, if WB numbers were to grow to even half of Air Canada, imagine what level of growth it brings! With so many untapped markets, Onex may even be aiming higher. WestJet publicly stated a few years ago that it intended to become one of the top global airlines (top 5 I believe). What does that entail, in terms of route structure, aircraft, pilots, etc? Here is its opportunity, as a private corporation and away from the probing eyes of the analysts. It just need to expand responsibly.

That could be the new challenge for WestJet: attracting experienced talent that is ready to command. They will have to be able to attract them directly to WestJet, another reason the one list is out of date. It doesn't fit with the exigencies of the new WestJet. If growth plans unfold as hoped, it will make little difference as there will be growth opportunities for less experienced too. Another area of major expansion will have to be Swoop (as much as some may disapprove). Just as Rouge turned things around for Air Canada and made Profitability and major expansion possible, Swoop will have to do the same for WestJet. Some pilots romanticize about shutting down Swoop and "going back to the old days". That will be losing market share from both ends and almost certainly the beginning of the end!
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Re: One List

Post by Freeport_Flyer » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:50 am

Cloak,

I agree that the onelist between the regional carrier and mainline doesn't work with the new model the corporation is trying to take, especially as you mention, there will most likely have to be some external hiring of experience. But! To be fair to all those who came through the door of Encore with the single pilot department list as a major selling feature of the job I believe they are all owed that condition of employment. Anyone who came through the door after the list was voted down falls into the "you knew what you were getting in to".

As others have pointed out, taking away the GIANT CARROT to get folks in the door of Encore is not a problem for a pilot at Mainline; this is an Encore management problem. I think the fear that most have but won't say, is that they believe management will do nothing meaningful. Pilots (in my mind) are simple to figure out: money, schedule, progression. In fact I would say this is true of any professional, that's why they can't get doctors to go to Nova Scotia.

Making Encore attractive is not the job of the WJ Pilot's Union, but I do believe there is a responsibility to honour the agreement (understanding, etc) that was in place until it was terminated by an accepted process. This puts the onus on management to make Encore attractive through either: money, schedule, progression or a little of everything.

But let's be realistic; nothing will happen anywhere in WJ until after the Onex purchase goes through. After that is anyone's guess and there are a lot of them. Just look at the Onex plans thread!
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:09 am

You guys keep comparing WestJet to AC and the American legacies. What you fail to mention is that Jazz is not owned by Air Canada. ExpressJet is not owned by United.

Encore is fully owned by WestJet. Encore is designed to support mainline from feeding passengers to flight crew members. Trying to minimize what Encore is to WestJet, or pushing Encore to the corner of the room is short sighted and will only result in worse conditions for you as a mainline pilot in the end.
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Re: One List

Post by George Taylor » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:04 am

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:09 am
pushing Encore to the corner of the room is short sighted and will only result in worse conditions for you as a mainline pilot in the end.
These kind of statements that allude to the demise of mainline while SOME Encore pilots have a hissy fit re: the one list won't bode well to entice anyone to vote in your favour. It's been beaten to death. For whatever reason, it's now only a one way street. No amount of veiled threats will change mine, or others position on the matter. I don't care what JBI, or others have to say. The original deal was a two way flow. It's not now, so to blame mainline pilots for the failed vote is BS. Present the deal that benefits flow both ways and it would pass. Direct your frustrations towards those that presented a one-sided agreement.
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:17 pm

I understand why you must be frustrated that reverse-flow is not in the proposals. It makes sense that you want the security of being able to flow back in case the airline hits bumps and needs to lay off pilots. It's not wrong to think that way, but you should also think about the reality of the situation. If they are laying off mainline pilots, it's because there are too many mainline pilots and they cannot afford to employ them. Do you not think that Encore will be the first to lose jobs? Encore is not designed to make money by itself, but instead, prop up mainline. They will sell off Encore well before a large layoff at mainline.

Either way, you'd be screwed.
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Re: One List

Post by Yycjetdriver » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:07 pm

plausiblyannonymous wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:17 pm
I understand why you must be frustrated that reverse-flow is not in the proposals. It makes sense that you want the security of being able to flow back in case the airline hits bumps and needs to lay off pilots. It's not wrong to think that way, but you should also think about the reality of the situation. If they are laying off mainline pilots, it's because there are too many mainline pilots and they cannot afford to employ them. Do you not think that Encore will be the first to lose jobs? Encore is not designed to make money by itself, but instead, prop up mainline. They will sell off Encore well before a large layoff at mainline.

Either way, you'd be screwed.
Wrong on many levels, take an unbiased look at the situation. If the lay offs were to come as a result of cost cutting, think of the cost associated with a Q compared to a 737. They’d need to rid themselves of several Q and associated crews in order to save the same amount of money by reducing one 737 and associated crews.
Now say the lay offs were due to a reduce in demand or perhaps an economic crash causing a drop in the flying public, smaller gauge aircraft could prove even more valuable in that situation. In that situation it could be said more Q’s flying feeder flights to say 87’s operating long 37 flights on a less frequent basis could be more economical.
Who knows? Not me I’m just a dumb pilot, but you can’t just assume the Q’s would be the first to go. Maybe they’d decide on less 37’s and more Q, without the reverse flow would a mainline pilot be let go and have to re-apply to encore to feed his/her family?
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Re: One List

Post by JBI » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:24 am

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:07 pm

Who knows? Not me I’m just a dumb pilot...
So here's the thing. I think pilots are pretty good at collecting and absorbing information about many different factors, but we're not experts in everything. If we're not sure about something maintenance-wise with the plane, we call maintenance. While sometimes we may have questions or a slight difference in opinion on procedure with them, I think it's very rare that anyone reacts with "meh, I don't believe what maintenance says" or "they just have their own selfish interests in mind" or "they're lying to me".

If you're not sure about something in your contract, call your MEC or LEC rep. Many of them have been directly involved in negotiating the contract with the help of YOUR lawyers. Like maintenance with technical issues with the aircraft, they can talk you through how the contract will work in various situations (including, but definitely not limited to, layoffs).

Unfortunately most guys will just do the "nope, I know what I know and am not going to bother finding out more information". You wouldn't do that if it was an uncertainty about a maintenance issue, why are you doing it if there's uncertainty about your career?
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Re: One List

Post by cloak » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:57 am

This is not a highly technical engineering issue! One has to wonder about the benefit of something when it's turned into something complicated and convoluted that only serves to keep lawyers employed. It's simple, one gets hired at a company, one accrues years of service and seniority. Last in, first out kind of thing. Working at a different company, one does the same at that company. Simple! And yes a corporation may own various companies.
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Re: One List

Post by JBI » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:06 am

cloak wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:57 am
This is not a highly technical engineering issue! One has to wonder about the benefit of something when it's turned into something complicated and convoluted that only serves to keep lawyers employed. It's simple, one gets hired at a company, one accrues years of service and seniority. Last in, first out kind of thing. Working at a different company, one does the same at that company. Simple! And yes a corporation may own various companies.
Lawyers everywhere are shedding a tear this morning.

They've woken up to the news that on a Canadian aviation message board their existence has again been questioned. While sure, lawyers get made fun of, insulted and even cursed at, this last post, by poster who has already demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of employment and labour laws, the previous WJPA contracts and one-list, current mainline and Encore CAs and the wording of the failed LOA, is the last straw!

A few lawyers, however, are applauding this anonymous internet poster. Finally, he's figured it out! This issue means nothing to the pilots. Those hundreds of pages of contractual clauses are overkill and serve no purpose in protecting pilots or upholding various parties' legal obligations! I mean it's not like the poster has read them anyways...

If you need me I'm going to be consoling my colleagues from law school trying to help them find another profession that the general public doesn't understand and thinks is actually really simple. Maybe I'll suggest they try piloting... :lol:
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Re: One List

Post by cloak » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:02 pm

Clearly this is a very sensitive topic that brings out strong feelings for some. That is understandable, albeit highlight also that usually such strong emotions manifest themselves when there is lack of reason. It also shows lack of solid grounds for such action to begin with, assuming that perhaps WestJet pilots felt badly about poor conditions at Encore and endeavored to compensate in some way. With the benefit of hindsight, it becomes evident that sense of justice and responsibility was misplaced as it brought continued unreasonable expectations.

At any rate, there has been enough discussions on the subject to help those involved make an informed decision for the right reasons and without being pressured into guilt. Current environment of mergers and acquisitions further accentuate the importance of the issue. It also highlights the duty of fair representation that rests with the executive members of the union and their counsels to do as they are entrusted by the membership. As someone mentioned above, it was fundamentally unreasonable for the candidates running for office in the union, to make campaign promises they could not possibly deliver, even worse to the members of another bargaining unit! Continued advocacy for members of another bargaining unit at the expense of and injury to the current members is likely to garner strong objections and possibly legal suits. Good luck to all!
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Re: One List

Post by Stratopaused » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:51 pm

Freeport_Flyer wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:50 am
As others have pointed out, taking away the GIANT CARROT to get folks in the door of Encore is not a problem for a pilot at Mainline; this is an Encore management problem. I think the fear that most have but won't say, is that they believe management will do nothing meaningful. Pilots (in my mind) are simple to figure out: money, schedule, progression. In fact I would say this is true of any professional, that's why they can't get doctors to go to Nova Scotia.

Making Encore attractive is not the job of the WJ Pilot's Union, but I do believe there is a responsibility to honour the agreement (understanding, etc) that was in place until it was terminated by an accepted process. This puts the onus on management to make Encore attractive through either: money, schedule, progression or a little of everything.
I think this is a terribly myopic viewpoint. Seeing this as an Encore problem that exists in its own little bubble misses the entire reason that Encore exists: to feed passengers onto mainline aircraft. Encore was set up before any widebodies were bought specifically to ensure that enough connecting passengers would be available to fill those seats. Encore has more than 1/4 of WestJet's total fleet, and carries about 25000 guests each day; as I've said before, if even half of those passengers connect onto other WestJet flights, and I dare say that's a low estimate, that's 12500 connections each day, or the equivalent of almost 80 full 737s, using an average number of seats across the fleet. To reiterate, Encore provides enough connecting passengers to fill almost 80 737 flights each day. Without Encore, the 787s will not be profitable; for example, there isn't nearly enough O&D demand between Calgary and Dublin to maintain those flights without guests joining from Edmonton, Fort St John, and Regina. Encore is vital not only to the continued growth of WestJet, but just to maintain current operations. That should be the concern of every WestJet pilot.
The reason I'm stating this is that Encore is bleeding to death. That's not hyperbole. There have been weeks at a time when we have had no res coverage, and pairings that couldn't be crewed from the moment the schedule was released, so the flights were cancelled outright. Go on Westnet and check out how many irops are caused by a lack of crew, or better yet go back to the summer and see how many cancellations there were during the peak. Pax were being put on buses on a daily basis; those people will almost certainly never book with WestJet again, because they won't know if they'll actually get on an airplane or whether they'll make their connections. Take a moment and think about the optics of airline passengers being put on buses, and having to be reaccommodated, every single day. Encore is likely going to have to decrease frequencies, or maybe even drop routes, next year if the staffing situation isn't sorted out. How do you commuters feel about that? I would estimate that Encore won't be able to support operations to all its destinations out of YYZ in a year, and YYC in two, if the bleeding isn't stopped.
Since the One List was voted down, applicants have dried up and current pilots are leaving at a rate of about twenty a month, and the cessation of flow for the foreseeable future has exacerbated the problem. It was bad enough that applicants prior to the vote weren't experienced enough for a quick upgrade, but now even inexperienced pilots aren't applying. They're going to Jazz, or holding out for mainline, which is now taking 703/704 pilots who wouldn't meet the matrix for an upgrade at Encore. There's no reason for anyone to come here, and people are leaving in droves because it's become a dead end. Guys are going back to flying medevacs, corporate, or just quitting flying altogether rather than work here anymore. Morale has tanked, because we're working more and paid less than our competitors, which we thought would be short-term pain for long-term gain; instead we feel like everyone else in the company is making money off our backs. We do more for less, and then we're asked to taxi single-engine, to not run the APU until the cabin temps become uncomfortable, and to slow down in flight to reduce fuel burns, which then results in shorter, more-stressful turns, all so that mainline pilots can get nice profit-share cheques and cash out their ESPPs. The sentiment on the line is that there's no reason to work at Encore anymore, and I don't see how an airline can survive that kind of mentality when it's already struggling with staffing without a lot of major changes.
Management certainly bears a lot of blame for stopping flow and promising a retention plan that never materialized, but it's going to take the cooperation of mainline pilots to rectify the situation. Half-measures won't cut it. Encore will have to have an unrivalled WAWCON, which will probably have to include a common seniority list, just to maintain current staffing levels, let alone increase them to accommodate trip-and-duty-rigs, higher res rates, and the updated duty regs. If Encore fails, WestJet growth will stop dead. Without regional feed, I very much doubt even all ten of the firm 787 orders will be delivered. Management is apparently looking very hard at a Calgary-Tokyo route, but when you consider how AC makes it work, it's not from O&D pax; there's not nearly enough of a link between the two cities to justify it. The reason it works is that they put 78 of the passengers on a flight to YZF, and another 78 on a connection through YEG to YZF, which is a huge tourist destination from Japan. Without all of the connections Encore provides, there won't be any way to make a YYC-TYO route work, let alone any other expansion.
I'm sure the company could replace a lot of Qs with 737s, but not with the same frequency of flights. There are tons of oilfield workers who are paying their own way to YMM, and they book their flights as close to their shift changes as possible to maximize their time at home. If WestJet reduces from five daily flights out of YYC, and four out of YEG, to a couple of jets, those guys will book with AC instead. The business and government travellers who fly between YYC and YEG won't sit around for a couple of extra hours, they'll fly with AC (worse yet, imagine those high-yield frequent fliers being put on a three-hour bus ride instead of a 35-minute flight because of a lack of Encore crews). WestJet would have to abandon YYF, YKA, YCD, YXJ, YXT, YQU, YBR, YQT, YXU, YVR-YXS, YVR-YLW, YVR-YYJ, YVR-YQQ, YEG-YLW, YLW-YYJ, YEG-YXE, YEG-YQR, YXE-YWG, YQR-YWG, and all of the destinations out east with which I'm less familiar; YMM and YZF service might continue on the jet, but probably only twice a day for the former and once for the latter, assuming there were enough aircraft to allocate to even that much service, and YXE, YQR, and YLW frequency would drop by half. Not only that, but WestJet wouldn't be able to provide half of the Suncor charters. Jazz would step into that void without missing a beat. Do you really think WestJet would survive that kind of a reduction without severe pain? Without Encore, the company will at best stay at its current size, but I fear it would shrink back to its pre-2013 size, abandon any overseas service, and focus on low-yield North American flights again. The few 787s that would be kept would be used for Hawaii and some busy routes down south. I know the OTS pilots aren't likely to vote in favour of any future common seniority list proposals, but I think that's immensely short-sighted; you'll keep a few Encore pilots from bumping into the list above you, but upgrades could go from eight years to fifteen as things stop dead.
After all the talk of pilot unity, Encore pilots feel abandoned and isolated. We don't feel like anyone is on our side, and we don't feel like we have a future with WestJet. First and foremost, before any talk of a common seniority list, all we want from the mainline pilots is an acknowledgement of our importance to the company, and some recognition that we don't just pick up the revenue scraps from a few outlying communities. If you concede that WestJet won't grow without Encore, then I implore you to consider the ramifications of Encore shutting down. That's not a hypothetical, that's the trajectory that we're on now. If the bleeding is going to be stopped, and your futures as well as mine are to be secured, then it's going to take cooperation from both pilot groups and management to find a solution that will actually get pilots to want to work here. It's not just an Encore management problem, it's something that's going to affect all of us in a major way starting next summer when it gets busy again, if not this Christmas.
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Re: One List

Post by kiaszceski » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:55 pm

So what do you propose?
There’s going to be 2 class a month for Encore beginning January, I think they are hiring as much as they can.

Maybe the best way to address this would be to close Encore and merge the pilots to mainline, with a common FO pay and a 20% raise for Q captain.
What would be the cons of this?

Westjet needs to give itself the means to fulfil its ambition.
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Re: One List

Post by George Taylor » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:21 pm

Dude you’re delusional (Strat), and over estimate your value.
It’s a job, and if you feel you can do better elsewhere follow the exodus. Before the apocalypse which you predict would happen, WJ management will either sell off Encore or increase the utilization of a CPA. How many years was WestJet successful before Encore? Try not to let your emotions get the better of you, its Aviation. By the way, mainline puts way more into the pot then Encore, so we all contribute. You’re welcome.
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:31 pm

Stratopaused wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:51 pm
After all the talk of pilot unity, Encore pilots feel abandoned and isolated. We don't feel like anyone is on our side, and we don't feel like we have a future with WestJet.
Spot. Fucking. On.

I've been at Encore a few months and, even with my forced optimistic views, I am having trouble holding onto my ambitions of a long-term career with WestJet.

I went from loving how great the company is (or at least, what I was fed during Kool-Aid day) to realizing that I have just as much future at WestJet as I do at Air Canada. In five or so years when I should be upgrading from Encore to mainline, my thoughts should be about my excitement of moving on with a stable career. Right now, it looks like it's as likely that I'll go to AC mainline as it is that I'll go to WestJet mainline.

I want to want WestJet. I want to be excited to work for this company.

It is quite surprising how often I am left feeling like a child who has no place in this company. Captains at mainline seem to have this resentment toward those who didn't spend five years in the bush. The 37 is a larger aircraft, yes, but we are all flying paying passengers who expect a level of professionalism, service, and safety.

I have no solution to offer. I have an idea of what I would like to see, but really, I don't care about the one list as much as I care about being treated like a member of the same team. I am a member of the same team.
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Re: One List

Post by PA-18 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:43 pm

Wow, sounds as if the westjet world is going to end. This sounds like a management problem. Key word is “manage”. This isn’t a pilot problem. Although there are less pilots supplying the market for the demand right now, This is just a redistribution game of pilots that will be over one day. The end of the shared seniority list is just a push for those looking for greener pastures which may or may not stay green. The job didn’t change did it? Just a future seniority number at a company that’s not seniority driven in regards to lifestyle.
What did westjet and encore pilots think was going to happen when both pilot groups certified into different groups? And of all unions they chose the most seniority driven union with common industry standards. Although encore is a feeder, It did take some routes away from mainline in the race to the bottom while pilots were lining up in the race for a seniority number.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One List

Post by Yycjetdriver » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:51 am

What are you so mad about? As far as I can see and have heard it’s been status quo for Encore flow overs. Even since the one list being voted down it’s as if the union doesn’t care about those results and are honouring it. All the employee numbers on the seniority list reflect this. Yeah I get you’re mad with the OTS only courses of late but with the union not honouring the vote results you’ll likely flow ahead of them and still make your top up pay. The mainline union has literally favoured you guys over their own members, no need to be freaking out.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: One List

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:01 am

Sounds like a supply and demand problem. Encore is demanding more pilots than the supply is providing at the current price. You said it yourself, Encore pilots are paid below market value (industry average). How does a free market fix that? Increase the price!

Give Encore pilots a 30% raise, and the captain payscale tops out at 200 grand after 10 years. 16 days a month maximum. Wasn't there a port system long ago, where you could live anywhere you wanted on the network?

There, solved the recruitment and attrition problems. Encore is now a career worthy company.

Obviously the managers would rather pay for busses, cancelled flights, cranky passengers and missed connections than pay Encore pilots more. I'm sure they've done the cost/benefit analysis. It's just a cold business decision. Management and the executives have, so far, decided you aren't worth more money to them.

My point being, turn down a overtime, call in fatigued when you should, and NEVER "do the company a favor". Eventually the cancellations will get so expensive that the cost/benefit of pay raises tips the other way and management offers something to sweeten the pot for the pilots. Think of all the flight cancellations as a bargaining chip for the MEC.
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Rowdy
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Re: One List

Post by Rowdy » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:21 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:01 am
Sounds like a supply and demand problem. Encore is demanding more pilots than the supply is providing at the current price. You said it yourself, Encore pilots are paid below market value (industry average). How does a free market fix that? Increase the price!

Give Encore pilots a 30% raise, and the captain payscale tops out at 200 grand after 10 years. 16 days a month maximum. Wasn't there a port system long ago, where you could live anywhere you wanted on the network?

There, solved the recruitment and attrition problems. Encore is now a career worthy company.

Obviously the managers would rather pay for busses, cancelled flights, cranky passengers and missed connections than pay Encore pilots more. I'm sure they've done the cost/benefit analysis. It's just a cold business decision. Management and the executives have, so far, decided you aren't worth more money to them.

My point being, turn down a overtime, call in fatigued when you should, and NEVER "do the company a favor". Eventually the cancellations will get so expensive that the cost/benefit of pay raises tips the other way and management offers something to sweeten the pot for the pilots. Think of all the flight cancellations as a bargaining chip for the MEC.

^Bingo...
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lostaviator
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Re: One List

Post by lostaviator » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:32 am

I think the one list is done, unless WestJet decides to merge the companies; which will be more challenging without knowing what Onex wants.

There are WJ pilots who voted in favour of the one list who have changed their position since the first vote given the attitude of encore pilots. Jumpseats, looking the other way after a friendly hello is passed. Remember, it was a minority of pilots who voted against it. A large group didn’t vote at all. WJ pilots had legitimate concerns about language in the moa and the MEC dropped the ball putting it to a vote as written. Did encore pilots expect wj pilots to vote for “one list” that was worse than before just to make you feel part of the team? Wj pilots aren’t the enemy. The 5 groups in the negotiating rooms are: Swoop, Encore and WJ and WJE and WJ ALPA.

The cold hard truth is that WJ doesn’t care about our feelings, if we get along, or if you have a rewarding career. There is a bean counter in some office somewhere who knows exactly how many guests we can piss off before it costs them money. And we obviously aren’t at that point yet. We still have guys getting aroused delaying APU start... saving the company money... while we don’t get paid for shift trades.

We are all just a number in the corporate machine, and there’s always another warm body to fill the right seat.

Jazz has survived for years with no “one list”, and no “regional pilot incentive program”. Encore will survive too.
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tbayav8er
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Re: One List

Post by tbayav8er » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:47 pm

My jumpseat on the Q is ALWAYS open to WJ pilots, and always will be. I've taken countless WJ pilots home in my jumpseat (just as they have for me), and I haven't heard of a single other Encore Captain denying their jumpseat to other pilots either. If it is happening, it's less than a handful of pilots, and unfortunately, in any group of 550 pilots, you're going to have a couple of jerks. Don't let the actions of ~3 pilots effect the image of the remaining 547 of us. I would say the vast majority of us are trying to be as professional as possible through this whole thing.

lostaviator wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:32 am
I think the one list is done, unless WestJet decides to merge the companies; which will be more challenging without knowing what Onex wants.

There are WJ pilots who voted in favour of the one list who have changed their position since the first vote given the attitude of encore pilots. Jumpseats, looking the other way after a friendly hello is passed. Remember, it was a minority of pilots who voted against it. A large group didn’t vote at all. WJ pilots had legitimate concerns about language in the moa and the MEC dropped the ball putting it to a vote as written. Did encore pilots expect wj pilots to vote for “one list” that was worse than before just to make you feel part of the team? Wj pilots aren’t the enemy. The 5 groups in the negotiating rooms are: Swoop, Encore and WJ and WJE and WJ ALPA.

The cold hard truth is that WJ doesn’t care about our feelings, if we get along, or if you have a rewarding career. There is a bean counter in some office somewhere who knows exactly how many guests we can piss off before it costs them money. And we obviously aren’t at that point yet. We still have guys getting aroused delaying APU start... saving the company money... while we don’t get paid for shift trades.

We are all just a number in the corporate machine, and there’s always another warm body to fill the right seat.

Jazz has survived for years with no “one list”, and no “regional pilot incentive program”. Encore will survive too.
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Re: One List

Post by Stratopaused » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:05 pm

George Taylor wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:21 pm
Dude you’re delusional (Strat), and over estimate your value.
It’s a job, and if you feel you can do better elsewhere follow the exodus. Before the apocalypse which you predict would happen, WJ management will either sell off Encore or increase the utilization of a CPA. How many years was WestJet successful before Encore? Try not to let your emotions get the better of you, its Aviation. By the way, mainline puts way more into the pot then Encore, so we all contribute. You’re welcome.
WestJet is a much different company than it was before Encore. It was successful as a low-cost North American airline, but it didn't have any widebodies, trans-Atlantic routes, or aspirations for trans-Pacific routes. If you think WestJet can maintain its current growth without regional feed, by all means hang in there and see how it plays out. Try to explain to me how there's enough O&D demand to sustain a 787 between YYC and FCO three times a week without connecting passengers from the rest of western Canada. I think you're seriously underestimating the importance of regional feed to WestJet's growth plans; if you have a chance, talk to someone in senior management or load control who's not a pilot about the importance of Encore to 737 and 787 growth, because I think you'll be pretty shocked at the ramifications of Encore not being able to operate anymore. Management can't increase the utilization of a CPA, because Pasco already can't find enough pilots to operate their share of it; Encore is picking up the slack from them. There aren't anymore pilots out there to replace us, and that's the big issue here: you think we're replaceable, and if we're not willing to do it for a depressed rate so that you can get a cushy profit share and ESPP boost from our contributions to the company's profitability, then someone else can do it. There's no one else who will do it.
I, and pretty much everyone at Encore, have one foot out the door. We already are taking advantage of the market to find better opportunities, and that's going to continue, to the detriment of WestJet. I'm not trying to manipulate you into voting a specific way, because I don't think I'll even be here for a future vote, I'm just trying to warn you of the implications of your continued condescension towards Encore pilots and your attitude that we're subservient to you. In my opinion, you're going to be hurt much worse than we will by Encore imploding, because we will have all abandoned ship by then. Your derision towards us and the idea that all we do is pick up the scraps that aren't good enough for mainline are going to bite you if nothing is done to change the current trajectory. We will bail to AC, AT, or SW at the drop of a hat. Last spring, that would have been inconceivable, because we would have been abandoning years of seniority, but now there's nothing holding us back. The floodgates have opened, and the reservoir is draining. I'm even at a point where I might just quit outright; half of my paycheque goes towards childcare, which I only need because I'm working, so I might as well be a stay-at-home parent and get to spend time with my kids. I took this job because of the long-term career prospects, the potential for higher income and fewer days of work down the road, but now all I'm getting out of it is a smaller paycheque than I would get at Jazz and half of your ESPP rate. I can't even take advantage of the travel benefits, because I can't afford hotels and meals.
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:51 am
What are you so mad about? As far as I can see and have heard it’s been status quo for Encore flow overs. Even since the one list being voted down it’s as if the union doesn’t care about those results and are honouring it. All the employee numbers on the seniority list reflect this. Yeah I get you’re mad with the OTS only courses of late but with the union not honouring the vote results you’ll likely flow ahead of them and still make your top up pay. The mainline union has literally favoured you guys over their own members, no need to be freaking out.
It was status quo for two classes, and OTS-only for the last two or three. As of right now, flow is on hold indefinitely because of a shortage of captains, which is a problem that has only gotten worse since flow was halted. I don't see how they can go back to flowing anyone in the new year if they couldn't do it in October. As far as we can see, there isn't going to be any flow in the winter or spring, we're losing weeks of seniority and YOS with every single OTS-only class that's hired, and we're now facing years and years of commuting to YYZ before being able to hold a YYC spot. There's absolutely no reason to wait around and see what's going to happen when there's any other opportunity out there. We're losing twenty experienced captains a month, upgrading four new ones, and not even filling every initial class. This rate of attrition isn't sustainable.
goingnowherefast wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:01 am
Sounds like a supply and demand problem. Encore is demanding more pilots than the supply is providing at the current price. You said it yourself, Encore pilots are paid below market value (industry average). How does a free market fix that? Increase the price!

Give Encore pilots a 30% raise, and the captain payscale tops out at 200 grand after 10 years. 16 days a month maximum. Wasn't there a port system long ago, where you could live anywhere you wanted on the network?

There, solved the recruitment and attrition problems. Encore is now a career worthy company.
That would be a start, but at this point I don't think even that would be enough. There's so much bad blood that making Encore a bit better than Jazz won't fix everything. We would have to be able to make enough at Encore to compensate for the wages that we would have made over our careers if we flowed and maintained our seniority numbers; they would have to increase the ESPP, or its replacement, to 20% to match mainline; there would have to be an improvement in scheduling efficiency so that we aren't guaranteed to be working max days every month, even if they reduce it by a couple; they would have to bring in jets so we at least have a chance of not spending our entire careers churning through thunderstorms and ice storms; and they would have to build some kind of guarantee of career security into our contract, so that they can't just spin Encore off and shut it down. The biggest draw of Encore, for me, was that I would eventually get to WestJet, and my career would be solid until retirement, but if I have to worry that I'll just get laid off when the next CPA expires, it won't matter how much they're paying me. If they decide to go back to being a North American LCC, everyone at WestJet would be fine, but Encore pilots would be screwed. Even then, with all that, at best it would stem some of the bleeding, but it wouldn't improve hiring. Why would a King Air captain go to Encore for essentially the same WAWCON as they could get at WestJet, when they could hold out for a 737 and some nice tropical layovers instead of Grande Prairie and Brandon on the Q? All those changes would cost millions, if not tens of millions of dollars a year, plus hundreds of millions in capital costs for any jets that they buy. Management will balk at that prospect.
lostaviator wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:32 am
Jazz has survived for years with no “one list”, and no “regional pilot incentive program”. Encore will survive too.
AC had to make major concessions at Jazz in the last TA to improve their staffing situation. They weren't even supposed to open the contract for another six years, but they had to so that they could maintain uninterrupted operations. Jazz pilots got more money, and a 90% chance at getting to AC after two years, with a 60% flow rate. Encore pilots have a 100% chance of getting to WestJet, but with a current flow rate of 0%, a wait time of about five years, and we make less money and work more days for it in the meantime. Oh, yeah, if we ever do flow we'll get the REIP, super. That'll make up the difference. I've been telling my FOs who are more than six months from an upgrade to just apply at Jazz and get on their way to AC, because it makes way more sense to get on that path than to stay on this one for the indefinite future. AC hasn't called me yet, so it might even be in my best interest to go to Jazz, take a pay-cut for a year, but be at AC in two or three, instead of waiting here for even longer than that just to flow. There's no incentive for anyone with any real experience to come to Encore anymore, so it's going to become a place where 250-hour pilots come to build time before they go to get a real airline job. I can see the training brochures now: "After you graduate flight school, you'll need to build some experience by going to an entry-level company like Wasaya, Air Tindi, or Encore."
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yvrpilot82
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Re: One List

Post by yvrpilot82 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:26 pm

lostaviator wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:32 am
Jazz has survived for years with no “one list”, and no “regional pilot incentive program”. Encore will survive too.
True. Although no one came to Jazz having being given a seniority number at the mothership, and then 5+ years later had it taken away because of a vote.

Entirely different situation, and people are quick to forget how many people got royally f*cked by this vote.

As for the Encore pilots being hired now...they know that they'll be starting from ground zero in the decade or so when they may flow over to WJ. I'm sure Encore will survive by hiring any scraps they can who can't get on at Jazz, AC, WJ, TS, SW and the likes.
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