One List

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DropTanks
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Re: One List

Post by DropTanks »

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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:51 pm ... WestJet will just hire pilots off the street like they have for the next two courses this winter. The MEC in their emails prior to the one list vote also had idle threats but the vote still failed based on its own merits. Your threats to convince us to support the list or our careers will be affected is also without merit. If you’re angry over the current situation blame your own MEC who were involved along with the other 4 parties in coming up with the one list proposal. Don’t blame the mainline pilots and guilt them because Encore pilots supported them on the picket line. The one list proposal was not deemed worthy of being supported. That’s it. Pilots careers regularly have ups and downs, get over it and move forward.
Good points.

To elaborate, the so called "one list" was never really a one list, rather a "one way flow list" that allowed very generous terms for Encore. It was really meant to attract the talent that was initially required to get Encore off the ground and expand so quickly. And it was a testament to the strong culture and team-spirit of WestJet pilot group that always acted responsibly even throughout the recent upheaval. It was never meant to endure the test of times and the state of affairs now in which WestJet really needs to attract experienced talent directly to bolster its ranks in addition to the flow of younger pilots it may get from Encore.

And you are right, the MEC did try to skew the vote, however contrary to those threats that it will not revisit the issue if the vote fails, it continues to occupy itself with this issue while other pressing issues concerning the take over and expansion and Swoop remain. This is where it treads some murky waters to seemingly pursue its own agenda contrary to the wishes of the membership and possibly ALPA legal? It is time to move on and perhaps establish a new realistic flow in line with industry standards. Even to the bottom of the list, if Encore can maintain the current flow without another interview and sim evaluation, it still is a very good arrangement, especially with the top-up pay. It is still far better than other carriers including Air Canada regionals, where flow is not guaranteed and entails four more long years of probationary pay, if they do ever get there!

Another factor is the probability of sale and CPA for Encore, which makes it even more important for WestJet MEC to protect its own members under the DFR, consolidate its CBA, and lay the groundwork for the next round of negotiations. There could even be an opportunity for re-opening of the CBA if Onex seeks further expansion which is quite likely. These issues are far more pressing. Attracting talent to Encore remains the responsibility of the corporation. In some ways it has already priced it into the CBA with the top-up pay. As you say, those that have been around long enough through some mergers, bankruptcies and such know all too well that there is ups and downs in this industry, and it is time to move forward. Likely there will be meaningful growth to create lots of new opportunities.
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JBI
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Re: One List

Post by JBI »

cloak wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:40 am
To elaborate, the so called "one list" was never really a one list, rather a "one way flow list" that allowed very generous terms for Encore.
Again, that is not correct. There were provisions for both mainline pilots to bid to Encore and also in the event of layoffs for protection.

You're welcome to have your opinions about what things 'should' be like moving forward and I'm not in a position where I can publicly debate with you (and in fact don't necessarily disagree with some of your opinions), but you keep getting your facts wrong about what the one list was or wasn't.

As for ALPA legal and DFR etc. I'm happy to chat with anyone who has concerns. As I've said here publicly, when I practiced law full time (for 5 years) I didn't specialize in labour law, but have spent lots of time bringing myself up to speed on things. However, the dozens of ALPA internal and external lawyers DO specialize in labour law and they know their stuff.
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Hangry
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Re: One List

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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

JBI wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:07 am As for ALPA legal and DFR etc. I'm happy to chat with anyone who has concerns. As I've said here publicly, when I practiced law full time (for 5 years) I didn't specialize in labour law, but have spent lots of time bringing myself up to speed on things. However, the dozens of ALPA internal and external lawyers DO specialize in labour law and they know their stuff.
Ok then, legally speaking, what can constitute a mandate for an MEC to engage in further discussions regarding the one list after the defeat of their previous proposal in a democratic vote? What is the legal position on such action which clearly causes harm to some of its own pilots?
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JBI
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Re: One List

Post by JBI »

cloak wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:50 am
JBI wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:07 am As for ALPA legal and DFR etc. I'm happy to chat with anyone who has concerns. As I've said here publicly, when I practiced law full time (for 5 years) I didn't specialize in labour law, but have spent lots of time bringing myself up to speed on things. However, the dozens of ALPA internal and external lawyers DO specialize in labour law and they know their stuff.
Ok then, legally speaking, what can constitute a mandate for an MEC to engage in further discussions regarding the one list after the defeat of their previous proposal in a democratic vote? What is the legal position on such action which clearly causes harm to some of its own pilots?
That's something to discuss with your MEC.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

That's ok, the answer is clear. Previous agreement became null and void by Kaplan's ruling. The MEC's resolution was also rejected by the membership. To devote more time and resources to advocate for another bargaining unit makes the MEC and its executives vulnerable to future suits from any of the members for causing harm to their careers.

New reserve rules and atmosphere of mergers and acquisition make this even more important.

Flow will not change recruitment and retention at Encore, not that it should be the responsibility of WestJet pilots. Air Canada and all other major airlines have no flow, yet they have no problems recruiting for their regionals. Either better conditions or better career progression is what's needed. Time to move forward.
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kiaszceski
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Re: One List

Post by kiaszceski »

cloak wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:18 pm Air Canada and all other major airlines have no flow
Yes they have, Jazz and AC has a 90% agreement.
Delta has one with Endeavor.
United has one with Commutair/ExpressJet.

However I agree Sunwing or Air Transat doesn't have any, but you need at least 2000hrs to apply.

What do you mean by "better career progression" when not talking about flowing to mainline?
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Hudson90
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Re: One List

Post by Hudson90 »

Quote: Yes they have, Jazz and AC has a 90% agreement.
Delta has one with Endeavor.
United has one with Commutair/ExpressJet.

Yeah BOTL!

A flow agreement is just that. Mainline agrees to allow a certain percentage of regional pilots to flow onto their PDL when they need crewing. Mainline doesn’t give to hoots, who flows. It’s up to the regional negotiating committee to bargain and control who flows. Regional DOH is the norm. Once you flow to mainline, its BOTL period. The one-list fiasco was a mess/mistake from the start.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

kiaszceski wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:16 pm
cloak wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:18 pm Air Canada and all other major airlines have no flow
Yes they have, Jazz and AC has a 90% agreement.
Delta has one with Endeavor.
United has one with Commutair/ExpressJet.

However I agree Sunwing or Air Transat doesn't have any, but you need at least 2000hrs to apply.

What do you mean by "better career progression" when not talking about flowing to mainline?
Jazz flow is at 65% I believe and Sky Regional even less. Air Canada seems to take more from Porter than Sky. And the flow is AFTER an interview and as mentioned to the bottom of their list and at flat pay. Not sure if Jazz still has some top up.

Still it's not as good as WestJet which has flow too, also to the bottom of the list but with no interviews, plus top up pay. So it's a better deal because it's guaranteed.

Career progression as more movements and upgrades like Air Canada where new hires can fly WB aircraft, imo not that it's worth much because they still make the same crappy pay! But pilots still take those jobs. That's why flow is not the problem. More importantly recruitment at the regional level is not the duty and burden of the mainline pilots at any airline around the world. So no more guilting the WestJet pilots!

I believe however major expansion is on the horizon at WestJet, just awaiting the Onex deal and Max situation. Once that happens there'll be meaningful growth.
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Mr. North
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Re: One List

Post by Mr. North »

This thread is chalk FULL of misinformation and people trying to rewrite history. I'm not going to pick through all the BS and correct everything (I thank JBI for that) but I will say I am absolutely disgusted with how everything surrounding the one list played out although I can't say I'm all that surprised.

I worked closely with the Encore MEC for the better part of two years. Throughout that entire time, whenever I interacted with mainline MEC they never failed to impress upon us that, as teal pilots, "WE NEED TO STAND TOGETHER" and that when the time comes "WE WILL PROTECT THE ONE LIST". Every single one of them was of that opinion (or at least shook our hands and said so to our face). We can argue the one list legalese until we're blue in the face, but there is no denying the intent of both parties to protect the shared list or what was essentially the career trajectory of Encore pilots.

As separate bargaining units, neither could resolve a joint seniority list through their own negotiations. It had to be a three way agreement after the fact. Some people argue over the constitutionality of such an agreement which would be unique among other ALPA carriers. When I questioned Joe Depete (among other ALPA brass) over the viability of such an agreement, he (and others) remarked that any arrangement is possible so long as "the pilots want it". The recalling of Rob and the election of Tim to ALPA Canada President did not help the cause. Their successors on the MEC (for reasons I don't fully understand) asked their pilots to vote on a flawed replacement for the one list. Was that really the best they could offer? And if so, where was the unity narrative that had been so prevalent up to that point? The banging of the drum?! It may not have been the ideal flow up/flow down agreement but it would have kept everyone together, and improve from there. Instead there was a total absence of communication or direction from the MEC, which allowed OTS hires (who were always better off yet still stood to gain) to whip up enough fear. Voter apathy accomplished the rest.

The idea of revisiting the one list now and putting it to a vote, already once rejected, does not give me confidence in it's success. If by chance a new version does pass, it will most certainly be grieved (and with better grounds than if it had passed the first time).

Whatever side of the fence you're on there's a good deal of uncertainty with team teal; Onex, Swoop, the Sunwing deal, etc. Whatever unfolds in the years ahead, there will always be 500+ young pilots to whom the definition of "unity" means getting thrown under the bus. Expect them to take whatever leg up they can get and pass on anything that doesn't benefit them directly... for the next 20+ years. Don't believe me? Just look at AC. Guys over here are still talking about getting "what's owed them". But hey, who cares?!

If there is anything I hate more than this industry, it's the childlike mentality most of us have when it comes to our profession.
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Freeport_Flyer
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Re: One List

Post by Freeport_Flyer »

cloak wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:28 pm

I believe however major expansion is on the horizon at WestJet, just awaiting the Onex deal and Max situation. Once that happens there'll be meaningful growth.
I would hope there would be some expansion and growth! Last numbers I heard were 9 years to upgrade on the 737, 15 years to sit right seat on a 787. I imagine the 767's will go away at some point and all those senior folks will slide back down the list into those sweet 787s! Onex will have to bring in a lot of aircraft for meaningful expansion. In contrast, Air Canada has 102 wide bodies alone between Mainline and Rouge. Pilots are going off the Indoc course DCT to RP spots or right seat. Although, those going right seat will be on reserve FOREVER!!! The flat pay sucks but year 5 FO on a wide body make $140k base rate, before those sweet overseas per diems and premium pay for night flying! Yr 5 RPs doing about $100k base and working 9-12 days a month all overseas (read lots more money). If you go narrow body at Air Canada you'll upgrade to the left seat in 2-3 years. Sure, you'll be on reserve again, but who cares!?!? You're getting close to $180k base rate I'm sure!

There will have to be immense expansion to get close to those numbers and timelines. In the mean time, I'd be curious to know how many folks have left WJ (WJ, Swoop, Encore) for Air Canada this year.

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/hom ... fleet.html
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Freeport_Flyer wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:23 pm
I would hope there would be some expansion and growth! Last numbers I heard were 9 years to upgrade on the 737, 15 years to sit right seat on a 787. I imagine the 767's will go away at some point and all those senior folks will slide back down the list into those sweet 787s! Onex will have to bring in a lot of aircraft for meaningful expansion. In contrast, Air Canada has 102 wide bodies alone between Mainline and Rouge....

There will have to be immense expansion to get close to those numbers and timelines. In the mean time, I'd be curious to know how many folks have left WJ (WJ, Swoop, Encore) for Air Canada this year.

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/hom ... fleet.html
You are absolutely correct. The growth is the difference, not a flow agreement of sort, and that was my point. If you compare the fleet numbers from 4-5 years ago at Air Canada, it will become clear what substantial growth has taken place. Almost the entire Rouge fleet is new growth, and more. The same level can take place at WestJet with Onex. Using your example, if WB numbers were to grow to even half of Air Canada, imagine what level of growth it brings! With so many untapped markets, Onex may even be aiming higher. WestJet publicly stated a few years ago that it intended to become one of the top global airlines (top 5 I believe). What does that entail, in terms of route structure, aircraft, pilots, etc? Here is its opportunity, as a private corporation and away from the probing eyes of the analysts. It just need to expand responsibly.

That could be the new challenge for WestJet: attracting experienced talent that is ready to command. They will have to be able to attract them directly to WestJet, another reason the one list is out of date. It doesn't fit with the exigencies of the new WestJet. If growth plans unfold as hoped, it will make little difference as there will be growth opportunities for less experienced too. Another area of major expansion will have to be Swoop (as much as some may disapprove). Just as Rouge turned things around for Air Canada and made Profitability and major expansion possible, Swoop will have to do the same for WestJet. Some pilots romanticize about shutting down Swoop and "going back to the old days". That will be losing market share from both ends and almost certainly the beginning of the end!
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Freeport_Flyer
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Re: One List

Post by Freeport_Flyer »

Cloak,

I agree that the onelist between the regional carrier and mainline doesn't work with the new model the corporation is trying to take, especially as you mention, there will most likely have to be some external hiring of experience. But! To be fair to all those who came through the door of Encore with the single pilot department list as a major selling feature of the job I believe they are all owed that condition of employment. Anyone who came through the door after the list was voted down falls into the "you knew what you were getting in to".

As others have pointed out, taking away the GIANT CARROT to get folks in the door of Encore is not a problem for a pilot at Mainline; this is an Encore management problem. I think the fear that most have but won't say, is that they believe management will do nothing meaningful. Pilots (in my mind) are simple to figure out: money, schedule, progression. In fact I would say this is true of any professional, that's why they can't get doctors to go to Nova Scotia.

Making Encore attractive is not the job of the WJ Pilot's Union, but I do believe there is a responsibility to honour the agreement (understanding, etc) that was in place until it was terminated by an accepted process. This puts the onus on management to make Encore attractive through either: money, schedule, progression or a little of everything.

But let's be realistic; nothing will happen anywhere in WJ until after the Onex purchase goes through. After that is anyone's guess and there are a lot of them. Just look at the Onex plans thread!
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

You guys keep comparing WestJet to AC and the American legacies. What you fail to mention is that Jazz is not owned by Air Canada. ExpressJet is not owned by United.

Encore is fully owned by WestJet. Encore is designed to support mainline from feeding passengers to flight crew members. Trying to minimize what Encore is to WestJet, or pushing Encore to the corner of the room is short sighted and will only result in worse conditions for you as a mainline pilot in the end.
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Re: One List

Post by George Taylor »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:09 am pushing Encore to the corner of the room is short sighted and will only result in worse conditions for you as a mainline pilot in the end.
These kind of statements that allude to the demise of mainline while SOME Encore pilots have a hissy fit re: the one list won't bode well to entice anyone to vote in your favour. It's been beaten to death. For whatever reason, it's now only a one way street. No amount of veiled threats will change mine, or others position on the matter. I don't care what JBI, or others have to say. The original deal was a two way flow. It's not now, so to blame mainline pilots for the failed vote is BS. Present the deal that benefits flow both ways and it would pass. Direct your frustrations towards those that presented a one-sided agreement.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

I understand why you must be frustrated that reverse-flow is not in the proposals. It makes sense that you want the security of being able to flow back in case the airline hits bumps and needs to lay off pilots. It's not wrong to think that way, but you should also think about the reality of the situation. If they are laying off mainline pilots, it's because there are too many mainline pilots and they cannot afford to employ them. Do you not think that Encore will be the first to lose jobs? Encore is not designed to make money by itself, but instead, prop up mainline. They will sell off Encore well before a large layoff at mainline.

Either way, you'd be screwed.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One List

Post by Yycjetdriver »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:17 pm I understand why you must be frustrated that reverse-flow is not in the proposals. It makes sense that you want the security of being able to flow back in case the airline hits bumps and needs to lay off pilots. It's not wrong to think that way, but you should also think about the reality of the situation. If they are laying off mainline pilots, it's because there are too many mainline pilots and they cannot afford to employ them. Do you not think that Encore will be the first to lose jobs? Encore is not designed to make money by itself, but instead, prop up mainline. They will sell off Encore well before a large layoff at mainline.

Either way, you'd be screwed.
Wrong on many levels, take an unbiased look at the situation. If the lay offs were to come as a result of cost cutting, think of the cost associated with a Q compared to a 737. They’d need to rid themselves of several Q and associated crews in order to save the same amount of money by reducing one 737 and associated crews.
Now say the lay offs were due to a reduce in demand or perhaps an economic crash causing a drop in the flying public, smaller gauge aircraft could prove even more valuable in that situation. In that situation it could be said more Q’s flying feeder flights to say 87’s operating long 37 flights on a less frequent basis could be more economical.
Who knows? Not me I’m just a dumb pilot, but you can’t just assume the Q’s would be the first to go. Maybe they’d decide on less 37’s and more Q, without the reverse flow would a mainline pilot be let go and have to re-apply to encore to feed his/her family?
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JBI
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Re: One List

Post by JBI »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:07 pm
Who knows? Not me I’m just a dumb pilot...
So here's the thing. I think pilots are pretty good at collecting and absorbing information about many different factors, but we're not experts in everything. If we're not sure about something maintenance-wise with the plane, we call maintenance. While sometimes we may have questions or a slight difference in opinion on procedure with them, I think it's very rare that anyone reacts with "meh, I don't believe what maintenance says" or "they just have their own selfish interests in mind" or "they're lying to me".

If you're not sure about something in your contract, call your MEC or LEC rep. Many of them have been directly involved in negotiating the contract with the help of YOUR lawyers. Like maintenance with technical issues with the aircraft, they can talk you through how the contract will work in various situations (including, but definitely not limited to, layoffs).

Unfortunately most guys will just do the "nope, I know what I know and am not going to bother finding out more information". You wouldn't do that if it was an uncertainty about a maintenance issue, why are you doing it if there's uncertainty about your career?
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