More WJ layoffs

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Bede
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Bede »

chromeuser wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:51 pm Just curious to know why the NC rejected the latest deal offered by the company?
The NC doesn't reject deals- they recommend or don't recommend based on a number if financial and economic analysis. The MEC have to ratify a deal before sending to ALPA ratification.
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sstaurus
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by sstaurus »

Tomayto, tomahto, they rejected it for everyone else.
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notwhoyouthinkIam
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

The collective agreement for WJA, WSW, and WEN are all the same in regards to flight benefits.

"At no time will Pilots receive lesser travel privileges than any other employee group pursuant to the Company’s Travel Privileges Policy and/or Retirement Policy."

With Pilot being a defined term "A pilot employed by the Company who is a member of the bargaining unit," the argument is, are furloughed pilots on CEWS considered employed.

To answer that question, we need to look at the definition of "employment." I can't find an explicit definition, but in the Canada Labour Code, an employee is defined as a person who provides work or services to an employer in return for compensation. Any pilot who has been laid off and brought back for CEWS only is not providing work or a service and is not under the direction of the company.

I hope I am wrong, but it seems that this complaint is frivolous.
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Curiousflyer
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Curiousflyer »

notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:48 am The collective agreement for WJA, WSW, and WEN are all the same in regards to flight benefits.

"At no time will Pilots receive lesser travel privileges than any other employee group pursuant to the Company’s Travel Privileges Policy and/or Retirement Policy."

With Pilot being a defined term "A pilot employed by the Company who is a member of the bargaining unit," the argument is, are furloughed pilots on CEWS considered employed.

To answer that question, we need to look at the definition of "employment." I can't find an explicit definition, but in the Canada Labour Code, an employee is defined as a person who provides work or services to an employer in return for compensation. Any pilot who has been laid off and brought back for CEWS only is not providing work or a service and is not under the direction of the company.

I hope I am wrong, but it seems that this complaint is frivolous.
Are the CEWS/Furloughed pilots still paying union dues? Also, what about the other employee groups that have been laid off and are on CEWS? I'm not even certain if those exist, but assuming yes then there's some pretty direct comparisons to be made. Either way it's just more union busting from a company that no longer respects it's pilots. AC pilots furloughed kept travel benefits to the end of 2022 and doubled the J class standby passes this year for all pilots.
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Co-Joe Exotic
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Co-Joe Exotic »

AC also allowed us to pay employee/employer pension contributions. I heard only 16 pilots out of 600 are still paying into it. But at least it’s something.
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fish4life
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by fish4life »

Curiousflyer wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:35 am
notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:48 am The collective agreement for WJA, WSW, and WEN are all the same in regards to flight benefits.

"At no time will Pilots receive lesser travel privileges than any other employee group pursuant to the Company’s Travel Privileges Policy and/or Retirement Policy."

With Pilot being a defined term "A pilot employed by the Company who is a member of the bargaining unit," the argument is, are furloughed pilots on CEWS considered employed.

To answer that question, we need to look at the definition of "employment." I can't find an explicit definition, but in the Canada Labour Code, an employee is defined as a person who provides work or services to an employer in return for compensation. Any pilot who has been laid off and brought back for CEWS only is not providing work or a service and is not under the direction of the company.

I hope I am wrong, but it seems that this complaint is frivolous.
Are the CEWS/Furloughed pilots still paying union dues? Also, what about the other employee groups that have been laid off and are on CEWS? I'm not even certain if those exist, but assuming yes then there's some pretty direct comparisons to be made. Either way it's just more union busting from a company that no longer respects it's pilots. AC pilots furloughed kept travel benefits to the end of 2022 and doubled the J class standby passes this year for all pilots.
Every AC pilot I know that is laid off would rather be getting the CEWS instead of travel privileges
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Curiousflyer wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:35 am
notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:48 am The collective agreement for WJA, WSW, and WEN are all the same in regards to flight benefits.

"At no time will Pilots receive lesser travel privileges than any other employee group pursuant to the Company’s Travel Privileges Policy and/or Retirement Policy."

With Pilot being a defined term "A pilot employed by the Company who is a member of the bargaining unit," the argument is, are furloughed pilots on CEWS considered employed.

To answer that question, we need to look at the definition of "employment." I can't find an explicit definition, but in the Canada Labour Code, an employee is defined as a person who provides work or services to an employer in return for compensation. Any pilot who has been laid off and brought back for CEWS only is not providing work or a service and is not under the direction of the company.

I hope I am wrong, but it seems that this complaint is frivolous.
Are the CEWS/Furloughed pilots still paying union dues? Also, what about the other employee groups that have been laid off and are on CEWS? I'm not even certain if those exist, but assuming yes then there's some pretty direct comparisons to be made. Either way it's just more union busting from a company that no longer respects it's pilots. AC pilots furloughed kept travel benefits to the end of 2022 and doubled the J class standby passes this year for all pilots.
Yes they are still paying alpa dues.
In the latest grievance update I believe there was information about a grievance that has been filed in regards to furloughed pilots and passes. As a previous poster stated it’s in the collective agreement pilots will receive at minimum passes equal to all other employee groups. The FA’s have negotiated passes for furloughed employees, therefor the grievance states furloughed pilots shall receive the same entitlement.
I don’t believe being on CEWS or not matters at all.
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simply_no_one
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by simply_no_one »

fish4life wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:30 am
Curiousflyer wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:35 am
notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:48 am The collective agreement for WJA, WSW, and WEN are all the same in regards to flight benefits.

"At no time will Pilots receive lesser travel privileges than any other employee group pursuant to the Company’s Travel Privileges Policy and/or Retirement Policy."

With Pilot being a defined term "A pilot employed by the Company who is a member of the bargaining unit," the argument is, are furloughed pilots on CEWS considered employed.

To answer that question, we need to look at the definition of "employment." I can't find an explicit definition, but in the Canada Labour Code, an employee is defined as a person who provides work or services to an employer in return for compensation. Any pilot who has been laid off and brought back for CEWS only is not providing work or a service and is not under the direction of the company.

I hope I am wrong, but it seems that this complaint is frivolous.
Are the CEWS/Furloughed pilots still paying union dues? Also, what about the other employee groups that have been laid off and are on CEWS? I'm not even certain if those exist, but assuming yes then there's some pretty direct comparisons to be made. Either way it's just more union busting from a company that no longer respects it's pilots. AC pilots furloughed kept travel benefits to the end of 2022 and doubled the J class standby passes this year for all pilots.
Every AC pilot I know that is laid off would rather be getting the CEWS instead of travel privileges
100%

I would much rather be collecting $3500/mo and my YOS towards my pay, than be on EI for $2000/mo and have travel passes and 6x B1s... :lol:
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Last edited by simply_no_one on Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
simply_no_one
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by simply_no_one »

Curiousflyer wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:35 am
notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:48 am The collective agreement for WJA, WSW, and WEN are all the same in regards to flight benefits.

"At no time will Pilots receive lesser travel privileges than any other employee group pursuant to the Company’s Travel Privileges Policy and/or Retirement Policy."

With Pilot being a defined term "A pilot employed by the Company who is a member of the bargaining unit," the argument is, are furloughed pilots on CEWS considered employed.

To answer that question, we need to look at the definition of "employment." I can't find an explicit definition, but in the Canada Labour Code, an employee is defined as a person who provides work or services to an employer in return for compensation. Any pilot who has been laid off and brought back for CEWS only is not providing work or a service and is not under the direction of the company.

I hope I am wrong, but it seems that this complaint is frivolous.
Are the CEWS/Furloughed pilots still paying union dues? Also, what about the other employee groups that have been laid off and are on CEWS? I'm not even certain if those exist, but assuming yes then there's some pretty direct comparisons to be made. Either way it's just more union busting from a company that no longer respects it's pilots. AC pilots furloughed kept travel benefits to the end of 2022 and doubled the J class standby passes this year for all pilots.
When I WAS on CEWS (AC) I was most definitely being deducted union dues.
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betster
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by betster »

Who is getting 3500 a month in CEWS? Mine is basically equivalent to EI.
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fish4life
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by fish4life »

betster wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:25 am Who is getting 3500 a month in CEWS? Mine is basically equivalent to EI.
CEWS was just shy of $3500/ month, the Canadian government changed that to limit it to the same as CERB / EI depending on your situation if you are laid off.
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simply_no_one
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by simply_no_one »

betster wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:25 am Who is getting 3500 a month in CEWS? Mine is basically equivalent to EI.
If you made the maximum YMPE then CEWS was $847 a week IIRC. Which was like $36xx a month.
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notwhoyouthinkIam
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

simply_no_one wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:55 pm
betster wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:25 am Who is getting 3500 a month in CEWS? Mine is basically equivalent to EI.
If you made the maximum YMPE then CEWS was $847 a week IIRC. Which was like $36xx a month.
CEWS was changed late last year to match EI of $500 per week.
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simply_no_one
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by simply_no_one »

notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:29 am
simply_no_one wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:55 pm
betster wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:25 am Who is getting 3500 a month in CEWS? Mine is basically equivalent to EI.
If you made the maximum YMPE then CEWS was $847 a week IIRC. Which was like $36xx a month.
CEWS was changed late last year to match EI of $500 per week.
It's still better than EI, because you can work and earn more money on top of it without having clawbacks. Like EI.
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Launchpad1 »

I would much rather be collecting $3500/mo and my YOS towards my pay, than be on EI for $2000/mo and have travel passes and 6x B1s... :lol:
Accept the CEWS amount dropped way down from what it was in the summer. It's now about $2400 a month.
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simply_no_one
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by simply_no_one »

Launchpad1 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:26 pm
I would much rather be collecting $3500/mo and my YOS towards my pay, than be on EI for $2000/mo and have travel passes and 6x B1s... :lol:
Accept the CEWS amount dropped way down from what it was in the summer. It's now about $2400 a month.
Still more than EI if it's $2400. And you can work while on CEWS and not have clawbacks.
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by JBI »

simply_no_one wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:55 pm
Launchpad1 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:26 pm
I would much rather be collecting $3500/mo and my YOS towards my pay, than be on EI for $2000/mo and have travel passes and 6x B1s... :lol:
Accept the CEWS amount dropped way down from what it was in the summer. It's now about $2400 a month.
Still more than EI if it's $2400. And you can work while on CEWS and not have clawbacks.
After deductions, current furloughed/inactive pilots on CEWs are taking home $1800 a month. As you indicate, they have the ability to work other jobs and most furloughed/inactive pilots I know are doing something to make ends meet. I know a few that have found other flying jobs, some are instructing, others are working retail, being a FedEx delivery person, working Uber Eats, doing construction/contracting, working as a de-icer or working at Wal-Mart. I would agree, however, that most do prefer getting CEWs over EI (there isn't a time limit and there isn't claw back).
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by chromeuser »

Does anyone know which routes Link will take over from WJ/WEN?
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by CXALE »

chromeuser wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:49 am Does anyone know which routes Link will take over from WJ/WEN?
YVR YCD
YVR YQQ
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by elite »

It should be painfully clear to WestJet pilots by now that they were let down by a few individuals who did not even trust them and made the decision for them as benevolent kings do for their subjects. The problem however is that unions are not meant to be run like kingdoms as they don’t have individuals with long and proven history of benevolence.

Under the circumstances while the government is simply apathetic to the challenges of the industry and the financial plight of its people, and the effects of its limitations and restrictions linger on, it was very short-sighted, and as someone mentioned above driven by self interests or spite, that the company’s reasonable offer was not accepted or at least shared with the group to make a democratic decision based on the will of the majority.

To add insult to injury, it appears those individuals removed the other elements that were in favour of the deal! All under the guise of “protecting the contract”, “out of principle” and all under the watchful eyes of ALPA! By now it must be painfully clear that ALPA was a failed experiment! The simple fact is that ALPA, with all its benefits and shortcomings and politics, is not a Canadian organization and is not for Canadian pilots. Similar events took place with Canada 3000 that it charged in overpromising, underdelivering, and in the end running away when there was no money coming in. Another example would be air Canada walking away. Canada and the challenges unique to its pilots are not appreciated fully.

If you must have a union, have one that is for you, its constitution makes sense, and it follows common sense. There are other choices in Canada, not to mention the one you can make for yourself. And on top of all that, negotiate! No one has ever reached a “good deal” through antagonization, walking away from talks, and arbitration! Rebuild your relationships, amongst yourselves and with your employer to arrive at a mutually agreeable and prosperous solution. You’ve done it in the past, there is no reason you can’t do it in the future!
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