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Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

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Rotten Apple #1
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Update

Post by Rotten Apple #1 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:06 pm

:butthead:
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Last edited by Rotten Apple #1 on Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J'accuse

Post by Oleo 4 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:52 pm

Is this you JS?
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Re: J'accuse

Post by Batman » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:26 pm

Could there be anyone else capable of that?
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Re: J'accuse

Post by No Quarter » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:00 pm

And that's why you're alone.
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Re: J'accuse

Post by ahramin » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:13 pm

Interesting. Someone puts forth a cogent argument and gets personal attacks for their trouble. Sad, very sad. Have people simply decided that using their brains is just Too Much Trouble?
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Re: J'accuse

Post by complexintentions » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:52 am

Sounds like an personal vendetta from one individual to another, nothing more.

Most of the "argument" - which is basically the same thing restated about five times - involves accusations of copying other union's constitutions. Ummm....so what? Pretty much all new attempts to certify use existing unions as templates, particularly for contract leverage. It's kinda the point.

Anyway, all the vote has done is postpone the inevitable. Canada is becoming increasingly socialist, not less. Look no further than WestJet's home province. God help you all if the same transpires federally.

Best of luck with your "new" widebody.
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Re: J'accuse

Post by Batman » Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:47 am

Actually my post was a compliment to Rotten Apple, I'm really a big fan. And a friend of his away from this forum.
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Re: J'accuse

Post by Mr. North » Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:32 am

Well as either an open letter highlighting injustice or as a "personal vendetta", it certainly is pretty damning. I'd imagine the WPPA had a lawyer or two, could they not come up with their own constitution instead of using Delta's as a template? Would likely have been easier to omit union terms of office if they wrote their own constitution but since they hadn't it's pretty alarming that they chose to ignore that whole paragraph while lifting everything else. And then the misinformation regarding the collection of union dues! Yikes!

It's been said here before that a company gets the union they deserve. And while I don't doubt that WestJet will one day be unionised, this union clearly wasn't the right one for them.
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Re: J'accuse

Post by Legacy » Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:10 pm

IMO, whether I like it or not, and statistically speaking, I think certification is coming sooner or later. So Rotten, you may as well get rid of that mentality and start preparing for certification. Your "hatred" will do no one any good in the future.
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Re: J'accuse

Post by twinpratts » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:25 pm

Sum up :roll:
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Re: J'accuse

Post by KK7 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:03 pm

+1 Rotten Apple

I don't understand why the WPPA chose this particular moment to try to certify. They did not have enough support with only 49.5% signed cards, then spoke about unifying the pilot group. They advertised the structure that certification would bring, yet put forward a very poor constitution. They started with a plan to include Encore, yet chose to apply for certification without them.

Frankly, if a union wishes to certify and become the collective bargaining unit, they better have their ducks in line and present it in a nice little package to the employees. Without waiting for 60%-70% support of the group, you are being reckless and deliberately fracturing the group. You are asking to be the voice of the pilot group, but you can't recognize that the support isn't there. I'm all for copying something that is good so you don't have to reinvent the wheel, but is the DPA constitution well suited for the WestJet pilots? The WPPA had two years to perfect the constitution, yet it left it in a poor state well short of meeting the requirements of the pilots they wish to represent.

They were not prepared to deal with the contentious issues of the Encore pilots, how to deal with the flow, the list, or their inclusion. There may have been some legal reasons for this, but offered very little to show they even cared. They were conducting a card drive of Encore pilots, but who on their interim executive is representing the interests of the Encore pilots? The WJPA, who represents both groups of pilots, is made up of members from both groups. They say Encore needs to certify separately, yet where is the Encore version of the constitution? Their version of caring for Encore involved a bunch of 737 pilots gathering and deciding what is best for the Encore pilots, without so much as including them, then wishing to certifying themselves and telling the Encore pilots good luck on your own.

Perhaps this is putting it harshly, but all of this makes the WPPA seem like a joke. In my view, they have lost all credibility. They had an opportunity to build something that could have been beneficial, but they blew it. Pilots were telling them where their problems were, yet they did nothing about it. Is this what we could have expected if they had won the vote?

I think the WJPA fumbled on this one too. They should have been more prepared to point out these shortcomings. Instead most of the damning evidence was found by pilots not associated with the WJPA seeking it out. Much of it was found at the eleventh hour, long after most pilots had already voted. They should have been building a file in advance to demonstrate how unprepared the WPPA was, then when the application was made to certify just present the evidence and let it speak for itself.

I know some accuse the WJPA and WJA being one and the same. Is that really so? The pilots voted those representatives in to represent their interests to the company. Some portray the WJPA executive of going to company management to be their puppets. Knowing these guys I have a pretty hard time imagining that. They weren't defending the current model of representation for the company, clearly a significant number of pilots favour the current model. They were doing what they were elected to do, represent the interests and be the voice of the pilots.

Regardless, thanks to these events the group is now fractured. I hope that all involved are proud of the accomplishment. Everyone has to now figure out what works best for everyone, not just themselves. Hopefully a solution can be found. And if there is ever another certification drive again, I sure hope it comes in a different form than this ill prepared WPPA, and that they garner much more support before they risk fracturing the group again.
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Re: J'accuse

Post by #37 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:25 pm

How did the WPPA constitution stand up against the WJPA constitution?
How did the WPPA plan for Encore stand up against the WJPA plan for Encore?
How did the WPPA plan for dues stand up against the WJPA plan for dues?

All well and good for rotten apple to nit pick the WPPA... without a direct comparison it's not that valuable is it?
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Re: J'accuse

Post by Lateralus » Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:15 am

KK7 wrote:+1 Rotten Apple

I don't understand why the WPPA chose this particular moment to try to certify. They did not have enough support with only 49.5% signed cards, then spoke about unifying the pilot group. They advertised the structure that certification would bring, yet put forward a very poor constitution. They started with a plan to include Encore, yet chose to apply for certification without them.

Frankly, if a union wishes to certify and become the collective bargaining unit, they better have their ducks in line and present it in a nice little package to the employees. Without waiting for 60%-70% support of the group, you are being reckless and deliberately fracturing the group. You are asking to be the voice of the pilot group, but you can't recognize that the support isn't there. I'm all for copying something that is good so you don't have to reinvent the wheel, but is the DPA constitution well suited for the WestJet pilots? The WPPA had two years to perfect the constitution, yet it left it in a poor state well short of meeting the requirements of the pilots they wish to represent.

They were not prepared to deal with the contentious issues of the Encore pilots, how to deal with the flow, the list, or their inclusion. There may have been some legal reasons for this, but offered very little to show they even cared. They were conducting a card drive of Encore pilots, but who on their interim executive is representing the interests of the Encore pilots? The WJPA, who represents both groups of pilots, is made up of members from both groups. They say Encore needs to certify separately, yet where is the Encore version of the constitution? Their version of caring for Encore involved a bunch of 737 pilots gathering and deciding what is best for the Encore pilots, without so much as including them, then wishing to certifying themselves and telling the Encore pilots good luck on your own.

Perhaps this is putting it harshly, but all of this makes the WPPA seem like a joke. In my view, they have lost all credibility. They had an opportunity to build something that could have been beneficial, but they blew it. Pilots were telling them where their problems were, yet they did nothing about it. Is this what we could have expected if they had won the vote?

I think the WJPA fumbled on this one too. They should have been more prepared to point out these shortcomings. Instead most of the damning evidence was found by pilots not associated with the WJPA seeking it out. Much of it was found at the eleventh hour, long after most pilots had already voted. They should have been building a file in advance to demonstrate how unprepared the WPPA was, then when the application was made to certify just present the evidence and let it speak for itself.

I know some accuse the WJPA and WJA being one and the same. Is that really so? The pilots voted those representatives in to represent their interests to the company. Some portray the WJPA executive of going to company management to be their puppets. Knowing these guys I have a pretty hard time imagining that. They weren't defending the current model of representation for the company, clearly a significant number of pilots favour the current model. They were doing what they were elected to do, represent the interests and be the voice of the pilots.

Regardless, thanks to these events the group is now fractured. I hope that all involved are proud of the accomplishment. Everyone has to now figure out what works best for everyone, not just themselves. Hopefully a solution can be found. And if there is ever another certification drive again, I sure hope it comes in a different form than this ill prepared WPPA, and that they garner much more support before they risk fracturing the group again.
+1
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Re: J'accuse

Post by twinpratts » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:08 am

KK7 wrote:+1 Rotten Apple

I don't understand why the WPPA chose this particular moment to try to certify. They did not have enough support with only 49.5% signed cards, then spoke about unifying the pilot group. They advertised the structure that certification would bring, yet put forward a very poor constitution. They started with a plan to include Encore, yet chose to apply for certification without them.

Frankly, if a union wishes to certify and become the collective bargaining unit, they better have their ducks in line and present it in a nice little package to the employees. Without waiting for 60%-70% support of the group, you are being reckless and deliberately fracturing the group. You are asking to be the voice of the pilot group, but you can't recognize that the support isn't there. I'm all for copying something that is good so you don't have to reinvent the wheel, but is the DPA constitution well suited for the WestJet pilots? The WPPA had two years to perfect the constitution, yet it left it in a poor state well short of meeting the requirements of the pilots they wish to represent.

They were not prepared to deal with the contentious issues of the Encore pilots, how to deal with the flow, the list, or their inclusion. There may have been some legal reasons for this, but offered very little to show they even cared. They were conducting a card drive of Encore pilots, but who on their interim executive is representing the interests of the Encore pilots? The WJPA, who represents both groups of pilots, is made up of members from both groups. They say Encore needs to certify separately, yet where is the Encore version of the constitution? Their version of caring for Encore involved a bunch of 737 pilots gathering and deciding what is best for the Encore pilots, without so much as including them, then wishing to certifying themselves and telling the Encore pilots good luck on your own.

Perhaps this is putting it harshly, but all of this makes the WPPA seem like a joke. In my view, they have lost all credibility. They had an opportunity to build something that could have been beneficial, but they blew it. Pilots were telling them where their problems were, yet they did nothing about it. Is this what we could have expected if they had won the vote?

I think the WJPA fumbled on this one too. They should have been more prepared to point out these shortcomings. Instead most of the damning evidence was found by pilots not associated with the WJPA seeking it out. Much of it was found at the eleventh hour, long after most pilots had already voted. They should have been building a file in advance to demonstrate how unprepared the WPPA was, then when the application was made to certify just present the evidence and let it speak for itself.

I know some accuse the WJPA and WJA being one and the same. Is that really so? The pilots voted those representatives in to represent their interests to the company. Some portray the WJPA executive of going to company management to be their puppets. Knowing these guys I have a pretty hard time imagining that. They weren't defending the current model of representation for the company, clearly a significant number of pilots favour the current model. They were doing what they were elected to do, represent the interests and be the voice of the pilots.

Regardless, thanks to these events the group is now fractured. I hope that all involved are proud of the accomplishment. Everyone has to now figure out what works best for everyone, not just themselves. Hopefully a solution can be found. And if there is ever another certification drive again, I sure hope it comes in a different form than this ill prepared WPPA, and that they garner much more support before they risk fracturing the group again.
Nailed it.
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Re: J'accuse

Post by No Quarter » Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:38 pm

You can bet your Bippie it will be ALPA next time. Can't wait.
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Re: J'accuse

Post by twinpratts » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:09 pm

Unless Load Plan, TAC, Crew Sked, CSAs (fill in the blank) call Teamsters/ CUPE/ UNIFOR first :shock:
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Re: J'accuse

Post by FenceSitter » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:37 am

Rotten Apple #1 wrote:It certainly is a good thing that Bill C-525 enabled a secret vote.

The legislation change also saved the WPPA from attempting to automatically certify with a mere 50% + 1 of signed membership cards of the WestJet pilots, and thereby going against their previously communicated belief that it was: "...imperative that we have a cohesive pilot group and it is our intent to ensure we have a strong mandate from the pilot group before proceeding." (http://wppa.ca/downloads/files/Pilots%2 ... rlines.pdf)

But then legislative changes couldn't keep the lust for power from once again rearing its ugly head in a nauseating display of foot shuffling double speak as the WPPA attempted to win certification with 49.5% of signed cards heading into the vote. Strong mandate indeed.

No ladies and gentleman. This failure to succeed at the secret ballot box can be squarely laid at the feet of a keystone cop shop of full of pretenders to the certified throne. The WPPA has as its genesis one man's failed attempt to unilaterally force change and his vision through the the bodies representing (then and now) pilots and the rest of the employees at WestJet. Although our a WJPA/FAAB/PACT et al. are unorthodox solutions to the problem of finding voice for employee concerns, they are OUR solutions, and for the most part, they serve our needs. We didn't need Prince Charmless and his band of...how shall I put this...unhappy colleagues of mine.

But not so status quo ante if you are a visionary. A visionary needs converts. If you like to talk, so much the better. What is worth saying once is worth saying umpteen thousand times in coffee shops, on redeye flights, on shuttle buses, on the telephone, on Skype, in parking lots, in crew rooms, in hotel lobbies and everywhere else a WestJet pilot with at least one ear or the ability to read chatterboxing lips can be found. This has been an obsession.

It has not helped that the framework of US labour legislation precludes a WJPA. Yellow we may or may not be. And yet here we are. We have had faults and missteps and bad optics and regrets and disaffected members and apathetic members and indeed angry members or failing that, just plain grumpy members. In short, WestJet, and the WJPA are guilty of the crime of unfulfilled expectations, growth propelled policy change, poorly implemented restructurings and even well meaning and innocent vote stoppages, and it must be said, the occasional disowning by management of previously held sacred cow beliefs. We tried to be different. We tried to succeed in an industry where the old eat the young, where those on the property crap in nests of those yet to appear and then search the residue for edible bits. We tried.

But all that is inconsequential to the visionary. The visionary feeds the discontent with visions of proper representation (I say again: "PROPER REPRESENTATION!!!!") that will deliver contract increases and... nay Sir! It will deliver a contract!!! No more this gentleman's agreement! Pish posh! Management is out to screw you. Here's what United, and Delta, and Alaska, and SouthWest and every other pilot group gets in the CONTRACTS! Just So You Know! Why do we think we can be different in the face of every other certified pilot group's successes?

And despite all that, despite all the misstep and the pain and the embarrassment and the dirty, sticky post-grooming fingers, here we are. Days away from our first wide body delivery. A successful regional division. Hats off to our colleagues at AC and Rouge! You sirs and madams or right to be proud of your careers. But we are too. 19 years ago we showed up as the new kid with an attitude and maybe a bit too brash of a punky streak. Could we be blamed? The intervening years have once again shown the cutthroat indifference that the marketplace shows to the life or death of an aviation venture, especially one with the parochial attitudes of pre-WestJet Air Canada and Canadian Airlines.

But the preceding are just my words as a now confirmed believer who fought hard in my early WestJet career not to adopt or contract any traces of some cornpone WestJet dogma known as WestJettitude. I've gone native. These are my people and I'm proud of us. So yes, I took it personally when you, the WPPA, tried to insert yourself in between me and my employer.

It might have gone differently if collectively you had built on a solid foundation and built consensus, slowly, over time, amongst not just the disenfranchised, but we believers in the WJPA.

So what and who are we to believe when you announce your intentions and thrust YOUR vision upon us. Majority rules you cried as you simultaneously cried "UNITY"!

Unity. One. Whole. Together. United. Words. Mere words if they're not backed up with action.

COUNT 1

You abandoned Encore pilots.

Although you criticized the Encore "flow" (see PRAC ANALYSIS http://wppa.ca/resources/uplink---WPPA- ... an-Feb.pdf), that process of Encore pilots moving up/over to the 737 and "new" employment at WestJet mainline, you offered nothing to replace this industry leading and unprecedented construct. The Encore flow is superior to what Envoy pilots have in place with American, or what Endeavor pilots have in place with Delta, or what Horizon pilots have in place with Alaska. In fact what you offered, via your President's posts on a private forum, were unworkable solutions (combined bargaining unit or Single Employer) or untested theories (shared CBA) to the problem of certification condemning Encore pilots to the bottom of the WestJet list, and the resultant evaporated career expectations for so many of the 250ish Encore pilots.

Further supporting this accusation are your own words, or more precisely, the lack of your use of one word. The word is "Encore". Your Constitution (http://wppa.ca/downloads/files/WPPA-CON ... BYLAWS.pdf), the document you filed with the CIRB along with your certification application, contains zero point zero uses of the word "Encore". Your online newsletter, UPLINK (http://wppa.ca/downloads/), was published ten times. In eight of those editions, there are zero point zero uses of the word "Encore". In the first edition, there was one reference to low wages ate Encore, and in the tenth and last (to date) edition, there were nine references, all but one being critiques of the "flow" mentioned above.

There was an indirect reference to Encore in your Constitution. It was in paragraph 5 of Article II OBJECTIVES, where you used the phrase "regional affiliate" in lieu of naming Encore directly. I present that paragraph now with "Encore" substituted for "WestJet regional affiliates" and some unnecessary parts left out:

"5. To preserve and increase WestJet pilot jobs by ensuring all flying done by Encore ... does not threaten or hinder the career progression or working conditions of the pilots at WestJet."

This my dear WPPA, is a scope enabling close. You are clearly planning a negotiated CBA with a strict scope clause, restricting Encore growth, in a situation where Encore has at least 20 more airframes arriving. And yet you claim in various places that you are/were conducting a certification drive for Encore pilots concurrently with the WestJet drive. The phrase conflict of interest comes to mind.

Finally, in you newsletters, forum posts, and YouTube videos, there are numerous references to relationships with pilot associations of large, mainline air carriers. I could find no such admission of a relationship with a regional airline pilot association.

COUNT 2

You pilfered your Constitution.

It took some time to find out, and the information came to light to late for many who had already voted, but the evidence is unequivocal:

i) you copied the Constitution of the upstart Delta Pilots Association (DPA) onto your computer,
ii) removed unwanted sections,
iii) replaced any US references with the Canadian equivalent,
iv) replaced any uses of the word "Delta" with "WestJet",
v) replaced uses of the phrase "Delta Pilots Association (DPA)" with "WestJet Professional Pilots Association (WPPA)",
vi) and made minor editorial changes to reflect some of the specific situations at WestJet.

Here are the links:

DPA Constitution: http://delta-pilots.org/dpa-constitution-and-by-laws/

WPPA Constitution: http://wppa.ca/downloads/files/WPPA-CON ... BYLAWS.pdf

For visual impact, here are the preambles of the two constitutions side by side:



DPA CONSTITUTION PREAMBLE

PREAMBLE

This Constitution and By-Laws establishes the Delta Pilots Association (DPA). The Constitution is the mechanism through which each member will be represented, both individually and collectively. This document guarantees the control of the Association remains completely in the hands of the membership as a collective body. Founded on the principles of dedicated and exclusive representation, financial transparency and full accountability to the membership, DPA will exert every effort to uphold and protect the interests of its membership. DPA will always seek to expand the voice of the line pilot through technology and voluntary participation so that every individual member may easily make their desires known to their leadership and to other members. Through mandated reporting and open surveys, the membership will know their goals are being pursued and will have confidence that the will of the membership is the mandate of the Association. The Delta Pilots Association (DPA) will comply with the[/] Labor-Management Reporting and Disclosure Act of 1959, as amended.



WPPA CONSTITUTION PREAMBLE

PREAMBLE

This Constitution and By-Laws establishes the WestJet Professional Pilots Association (WPPA). The Constitution is the mechanism through which each member will be represented, both individually and collectively. This document guarantees the control of the Association remains completely in the hands of the membership as a collective body. Founded on the principles of dedicated and exclusive representation, financial transparency and full accountability to the membership, WPPA will exert every effort to uphold and protect the interests of its membership. WPPA will always seek to expand the voice of the line pilot through technology and voluntary participation so that every individual member may easily make their desires known to their leadership and to other members. Through mandated reporting and open surveys, the membership will know their goals are being pursued and will have confidence that the will of the membership is the mandate of the Association. The WestJet Professional Pilots Association (WPPA) will comply with the Canada Labour Code (R.S.C., 1985, c. L-2), as amended.


If one is aware that the DPA is trying to unseat ALPA as the union representing Delta's 12,000+ pilots (like the WPPA versus WJPA), and that the DPA is vigorously intent on restricting the growth of Delta's regional affiliates, then perhaps it becomes understandable why the WPPA chose the DPA and their Constitution. There was no consultation with the proposed members, WestJet pilots prior to this Constitution being imposed on them. Someone walked into a Starbucks in the lower mainland or Fraser River valley one morning at roughly 9 a.m., ordered a venti latté, and began cut and pasting. By noon this person walked out with the document saved in PDF format and emailed to the membership at the time.

This is a purloined "Starbucks" constitution, completely blind to the specific needs of the greater WestJet and Encore pilot group.

COUNT 3

Actions not in the interests of the WestJet pilot group.

Section 4 of Article IV - OFFICERS is missing. Under further investigation, the original DPA Constitution has a section named TERM OF OFFICE that was deliberately removed and not replaced in the WPPA Constitution. Here's what paragraph 1 says:

"1. All elected positions may only serve two consecutive terms before returning to the line. Members who complete two consecutive years of line flying following completion of an elected term may run for elected office regardless of prior service term limits."


If I spend a few moments in quiet reflection and try to imagine myself going through this document as the visionary founder of a nascent political movement, with a view to the future and where I saw myself in the executive structure of the triumphant reigning WPPA, I might not want restrictions on how long I could remain in office. I might prefer a long run at the helm of the WPPA (subject to membership approval) vice slogging it out back and forth across the continent.

I might call that self-serving behaviour, absent a definitive explanation to the contrary.

COUNT 4

Actions in violation of the Constitution

Article II - OBJECTIVES of the WPPA Constitution at paragraph 11 says:

"11. To offer assistance and help organize employee groups of wholly owned carriers of the Company or employee groups with any carrier with which the Association membership deems desirable to the Association."

As this paragraph clearly mentions the Company and other carriers, this section had the opportunity to enable the WPPA to "help organize other employee groups of the Company". It does not say that. Yet you have continuously aided and abetted the WestJet Professional Flight Attendants Association (WPFAA) in their pursuit of certification of the flight attendants of WestJet. You share the same lawyer and you have given over your Constitution to be used, once again almost verbatim, by the WPFAA.

Here once again the link to the WPPA Constitution:

http://wppa.ca/downloads/

And to the WPFAA Constitution:

http://nebula.wsimg.com/e9954fb9d5cbeca ... oworigin=1

It is clear that the WPPA has used the traditional close working relationship of pilots and flight attendants to further their own goal of certification by attempting to build critical mass and mutual support among fellow employees groups.

COUNT 5

Deliberately or negligently misleading promotional material

In order to curry support among the pilot group, the WPPA deliberately or negligently mislead the pilot group through their promotional YouTube video. To whit, at the 24:39 minute mark of the WPPA video released in February 2014 (http://youtu.be/CbwfwhL4nfo), the then President of the WPPA states very clearly, and the accompanying slide displayed in the video shows that the monthly membership dues will be "1% of base salary". Yet a check of the Constitution shows that

"2. Individual dues shall be calculated on the total compensation at the hourly rate of the previous month. The following items are not subject to dues: Company ESP Contributions, Profit Sharing payments, Stock Option benefits or gains realized of any kind including Signing Bonus or Stock Grants awarded by the Company for any reason.

3. The dues rate shall be 1.00% upon initial certification by the Canadian Industrial Relations Board."


Note that paragraph 2 above does not say that dues will be based on monthly salary. Paragraph 2 says that dues will be based on "total income" of the "previous month", not including ESP, Profit Share, and Stock Options etc. Interestingly, overtime earnings and extra shift traded flying revenue was not mentioned in this list of exclusions. It clearly implies that the 1% dues calculation will be based on overtime and extra flying revenue.

Here's how the WPFAA worded it on their Constitution:

"2. Individual dues shall be calculated on 80 hours for full time Flight Attendants and 50 hours for Part time Flight Attendants per month. The following items are not subject to dues: Overtime, Company ESP Contributions, Profit Sharing payments or gains realized of any kind including Owners Performance Awards awarded by the Company for any reason. Should Causal (sic) Positions be created the dues will be reviewed at that time."

The WPFAA deliberately excluded overtime revenue from the calculations, and more importantly, didn't try to say otherwise.

END


The clock has not run out on the desire of the majority of WestJet employees to remain in uncertified relationships with their employer, with all the warts and blemishes that entails. This certification attempt was shoddily and hastily rammed down the throats of many pilots. There will be more attempts in the future that will be more effective, more polished. We will deal with those attempts at that time, and who knows, one day we may unite under Union banners. In the meantime, every time a certification drive appears, we will similarly follow our current CEO's advice to simply ask hard questions in the face of slick, glossy marketing. And accept nothing but clear, understandable answers.

Employee #4799
http://www.decertifythewppa.ca


How times change. After seeing the commentary on SJWs and loss of male privilege on the forum, and your requesting of a card to sign, one can only hope that you now see the reason/s that the WPPA was trying so hard to bring rights and protections to the pilot group at WJ. Your post closes with your intent to ask hard questions as directed by the CEO. What business is it of his, what and how the pilots (and FAs) choose to be represented? The cards are not yet out for the pilots, but the FAs are aggressively pushing their cards before their deadline of November 30th. Rumor has it that the FAs are quite close but are holding off until C-4 is passed. Another rumor has pilot support for change at upwards of 70% which would make a 2 week card campaign a possibility and certification a distinct likelihood. When the division in the departments is encouraged and supported from the top down, doesn't it make one think that the agenda is being guided by non-personel based decision makers? Could it be that the anti-union sentiment is driven by emotion instead of reason? WJ pilots are a smart and motivated group, as a whole. As they go, so do the other departments. The WJ pilots make WJ possible, moreso than any other department save for perhaps maintenance. WJ pilots have given so much time and so many opportunities for change to happen from within. The last effort was the WPPA. These chances have been blown off (how many PRAC suggestions have been implemented? The fatigue survey... what has been done?). Time's up on letting the corporation handle the people and their relationship with the corporation.
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True North
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Re: J'accuse

Post by True North » Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:20 pm

"loss of male privilege"...

What the heck is that?
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FenceSitter
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Re: J'accuse

Post by FenceSitter » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:57 pm

True North wrote:"loss of male privilege"...

What the heck is that?
I have absolutely NOTHING to do with this FB page. I can not be more clear on that point. That it exists was brought to my attention by a friend. Follow this link to see what that is all about. Shocked. Stunned. Absolutely gobsmacked that this content is being attributed to an active pilot at any airline, nevermind one that I hold to a high level of respect. I am a critic, yes, but I still respect the many people I have worked with. That I have shared the same air with someone who expresses himself in this manner makes me hope for a leg-long mask test next time I see him.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id ... 77&fref=ts

You should be ashamed of this, deeply ashamed. This isn't the result of a rotten apple, this is a sick person.
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wirez
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Re: J'accuse

Post by wirez » Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:16 am

WOW!
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True North
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Re: J'accuse

Post by True North » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:57 pm

FenceSitter wrote:
True North wrote:"loss of male privilege"...

What the heck is that?
I have absolutely NOTHING to do with this FB page. I can not be more clear on that point. That it exists was brought to my attention by a friend. Follow this link to see what that is all about. Shocked. Stunned. Absolutely gobsmacked that this content is being attributed to an active pilot at any airline, nevermind one that I hold to a high level of respect. I am a critic, yes, but I still respect the many people I have worked with. That I have shared the same air with someone who expresses himself in this manner makes me hope for a leg-long mask test next time I see him.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id ... 77&fref=ts

You should be ashamed of this, deeply ashamed. This isn't the result of a rotten apple, this is a sick person.
Link doesn't work.
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wirez
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Re: J'accuse

Post by wirez » Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:22 pm

Evidently deleted
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skybaron
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Re: J'accuse

Post by skybaron » Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:05 pm

Dirty politics at its best. Who needs Trump or Clinton?

Not that I'm affiliated with this operation, but certification would make sense.

Why WPPA is being endlessly quoted is beyond me. It's a new player with a better understanding of the rules and talent for the craft that is helping out. ALPA.

Shit, the whole industry may as well sign for ALPA. As a WHOLE, we could have national representation. Imagine that. Even if it was just the majors - AC, WJ, Transat, Sunwing who all went with the same association, our voices would be louder than ever.

Here's to better working conditions for all of us professionals. Long overdue. :drinkers:
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Rowdy
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Re: J'accuse

Post by Rowdy » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 am

skybaron wrote: Here's to better working conditions for all of us professionals. Long overdue. :drinkers:
THIS! Right Here.... :supz:
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FenceSitter
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Re: J'accuse

Post by FenceSitter » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:31 am

True North wrote:
FenceSitter wrote:
True North wrote:"loss of male privilege"...

What the heck is that?
I have absolutely NOTHING to do with this FB page. I can not be more clear on that point. That it exists was brought to my attention by a friend. Follow this link to see what that is all about. Shocked. Stunned. Absolutely gobsmacked that this content is being attributed to an active pilot at any airline, nevermind one that I hold to a high level of respect. I am a critic, yes, but I still respect the many people I have worked with. That I have shared the same air with someone who expresses himself in this manner makes me hope for a leg-long mask test next time I see him.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id ... 77&fref=ts

You should be ashamed of this, deeply ashamed. This isn't the result of a rotten apple, this is a sick person.
Link doesn't work.
Looks like the page was taken down. Long story short it was an airing of an internal statement made on a pilot forum. it would appear that that pilot was a contributor to this thread.
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