Update

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Fanblade
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Re: J'accuse

Post by Fanblade » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:46 am

skybaron wrote:
Shit, the whole industry may as well sign for ALPA. As a WHOLE, we could have national representation. Imagine that. Even if it was just the majors - AC, WJ, Transat, Sunwing who all went with the same association, our voices would be louder than ever.

Here's to better working conditions for all of us professionals. Long overdue. :drinkers:
Agreed. All of us at one table.

https://www.alpa.org/pages/westjet
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Rotten Apple #1
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Re: Update

Post by Rotten Apple #1 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:06 am

Other than having expressed himself in a colourful manner on an internal pilot forum, fencesitter, I'm not sure what seems to irk you so much about how the writer of the post expressed him/herself. There's no misogyny, no racism, no hate speech that I can see, nor any regret over loss of male privilege (whatever that is). He's certainly not homophobic, as I believe at last count he's had two, maybe three gay relationships dating back to college years (Ah, the curiosity of the "college years") and from what I hear may have directly led to the Anal Canal Cancer he was diagnosed with in 2012, and subsequent divorce and alienation from his 13 year old son. But that's hearsay on an anonymous forum. I hear that recently he will admit to being more gay than straight, but officially lists himself as asexual, given the effect the radiation treatments had on his genitalia and reproductive organs and now three year old lack of sexual desire for any man, woman, or beast. Again, all hearsay.

I suppose he has some angst against "3rd wave feminism", distinct as it is from when the real courage was undertaken by feminists in the 60's etc. Today's version of feminism is largely a mob of social media savvy thugs who are ready at the drop of a mic to trample all over human rights and freedoms and are born, fed, and raised in the incubators of university campuses across this continent. They stand ready to indict and convict males of all colour and creed for the crime of not acknowledging their male privilege in the least, and sexual assault/harassment in the extreme. Jian Ghomeshi's experience at the hand of proven liars should chill you on where justice is headed in this country, if men/women remain silent. There will be one standard of justice: #victimsdontlie. But then of course, they obviously have...Thank god for Marie Henein. What a person. What a lawyer. What a defender of innocent men and women.

In case you think I'm some gun totin' boob in a wife beater drinkin' bud and picking my nose in traffic, I admit only to picking my nose in traffic. I came from the political left. I still have feelings of sympathy for the causes of the left. But with every shouted down speaker exercising his privilege of citizenship, I move one step right. Towards center. These concepts might be beyond your pay grade. Your solution might just be brute force: revenge, in any form, because you have a less than complete grasp of what discourse is and how to participate.

So back to the offensive post. I see regret over change, that's evident. I see concern over agenda driven reprisals against fellow employees, and I sense a sorrow that the employee culture once trumpeted as being "We take our job seriously, but not ourselves." has now been replaced by "I'm offended. I'm reporting you".

So where's the objectionable part? Oh wait, you're offended. Right. (Millennial?) Well, in the words of Christoper Hitchens:

"I'm still waiting to hear what your point is".
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FenceSitter
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Re: Update

Post by FenceSitter » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:58 am

Rotten Apple #1 wrote:Other than having expressed himself in a colourful manner on an internal pilot forum, fencesitter, I'm not sure what seems to irk you so much about how the writer of the post expressed him/herself. There's no misogyny, no racism, no hate speech that I can see, nor any regret over loss of male privilege (whatever that is). He's certainly not homophobic, as I believe at last count he's had two, maybe three gay relationships dating back to college years (Ah, the curiosity of the "college years") and from what I hear may have directly led to the Anal Canal Cancer he was diagnosed with in 2012, and subsequent divorce and alienation from his 13 year old son. But that's hearsay on an anonymous forum. I hear that recently he will admit to being more gay than straight, but officially lists himself as asexual, given the effect the radiation treatments had on his genitalia and reproductive organs and now three year old lack of sexual desire for any man, woman, or beast. Again, all hearsay.

I suppose he has some angst against "3rd wave feminism", distinct as it is from when the real courage was undertaken by feminists in the 60's etc. Today's version of feminism is largely a mob of social media savvy thugs who are ready at the drop of a mic to trample all over human rights and freedoms and are born, fed, and raised in the incubators of university campuses across this continent. They stand ready to indict and convict males of all colour and creed for the crime of not acknowledging their male privilege in the least, and sexual assault/harassment in the extreme. Jian Ghomeshi's experience at the hand of proven liars should chill you on where justice is headed in this country, if men/women remain silent. There will be one standard of justice: #victimsdontlie. But then of course, they obviously have...Thank god for Marie Henein. What a person. What a lawyer. What a defender of innocent men and women.

In case you think I'm some gun totin' boob in a wife beater drinkin' bud and picking my nose in traffic, I admit only to picking my nose in traffic. I came from the political left. I still have feelings of sympathy for the causes of the left. But with every shouted down speaker exercising his privilege of citizenship, I move one step right. Towards center. These concepts might be beyond your pay grade. Your solution might just be brute force: revenge, in any form, because you have a less than complete grasp of what discourse is and how to participate.

So back to the offensive post. I see regret over change, that's evident. I see concern over agenda driven reprisals against fellow employees, and I sense a sorrow that the employee culture once trumpeted as being "We take our job seriously, but not ourselves." has now been replaced by "I'm offended. I'm reporting you".

So where's the objectionable part? Oh wait, you're offended. Right. (Millennial?) Well, in the words of Christoper Hitchens:

"I'm still waiting to hear what your point is".
Ok. My point has been lost. Cancer, divorce and the loss of a person's relationship with their child..... I don't have words to express my sympathy for anyone who has gone through any single one, nevermind all three, of those tragic events. I too have gone through challenges such as these and it is a lot to handle. I am truly sorry that your "friend" has to go through that as I am sorry for anyone else that does. This conversation took a turn in a direction that not many could have predicted.
The company has always touted itself as being one with a "reporting culture". That mentality which you lament in the quoted response above ("I'm offended. I'm reporting you.") is a big part of the fear-inducing form of reporting culture that exists in the workplace for many people. There is nothing to prevent that sort of reporting culture from doing exactly what you are pointing out and there never has been. This is a big reason why there are so many people that are looking for that protection through a certified body. As I read the comments on WN about the ESP update I am blown away by the change that a united group of employees has made so quickly. I can only be reminded of when the FAs were given some sort of pay alteration a few years ago that they refer to as "Paymageddon". The united voice had those 'imposed' changes to their pay structure rolled back so fast that it made heads spin. That was quickly followed up by an apology from an exec (FP). These proposed ESP changes resulted in the same but a much less genuine apology from management (essentially 'we said it the wrong way and won't be doing this right now but we will try again later with nicer wording'). Another example would be the trial a couple of years back that changed the pay trigger from brake release to cargo door closing. That was blamed on Honeywell and several employees were paid money owed but the majority that were unaware of the pay-related implications of that change lost out.
It is things like all of these instances which require the ironclad language of a contract, not the muffled mumblings of an agreement. There are many more reasons to want/need certified representation.
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True North
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Re: Update

Post by True North » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:45 pm

FenceSitter wrote:Ok. My point has been lost. Cancer, divorce and the loss of a person's relationship with their child..... I don't have words to express my sympathy for anyone who has gone through any single one, nevermind all three, of those tragic events. I too have gone through challenges such as these and it is a lot to handle. I am truly sorry that your "friend" has to go through that as I am sorry for anyone else that does. This conversation took a turn in a direction that not many could have predicted.
The company has always touted itself as being one with a "reporting culture". That mentality which you lament in the quoted response above ("I'm offended. I'm reporting you.") is a big part of the fear-inducing form of reporting culture that exists in the workplace for many people. There is nothing to prevent that sort of reporting culture from doing exactly what you are pointing out and there never has been. This is a big reason why there are so many people that are looking for that protection through a certified body. As I read the comments on WN about the ESP update I am blown away by the change that a united group of employees has made so quickly. I can only be reminded of when the FAs were given some sort of pay alteration a few years ago that they refer to as "Paymageddon". The united voice had those 'imposed' changes to their pay structure rolled back so fast that it made heads spin. That was quickly followed up by an apology from an exec (FP). These proposed ESP changes resulted in the same but a much less genuine apology from management (essentially 'we said it the wrong way and won't be doing this right now but we will try again later with nicer wording'). Another example would be the trial a couple of years back that changed the pay trigger from brake release to cargo door closing. That was blamed on Honeywell and several employees were paid money owed but the majority that were unaware of the pay-related implications of that change lost out.
It is things like all of these instances which require the ironclad language of a contract, not the muffled mumblings of an agreement. There are many more reasons to want/need certified representation.
Okay, so let me see if I follow this. Your company made some changes that the employees didn't like. The employees complained and the company responded by immediately undoing the changes. Somehow joining a certified union will make that situation better. Do I have that right?
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FenceSitter
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Re: Update

Post by FenceSitter » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:40 am

True North wrote:
FenceSitter wrote:Ok. My point has been lost. Cancer, divorce and the loss of a person's relationship with their child..... I don't have words to express my sympathy for anyone who has gone through any single one, nevermind all three, of those tragic events. I too have gone through challenges such as these and it is a lot to handle. I am truly sorry that your "friend" has to go through that as I am sorry for anyone else that does. This conversation took a turn in a direction that not many could have predicted.
The company has always touted itself as being one with a "reporting culture". That mentality which you lament in the quoted response above ("I'm offended. I'm reporting you.") is a big part of the fear-inducing form of reporting culture that exists in the workplace for many people. There is nothing to prevent that sort of reporting culture from doing exactly what you are pointing out and there never has been. This is a big reason why there are so many people that are looking for that protection through a certified body. As I read the comments on WN about the ESP update I am blown away by the change that a united group of employees has made so quickly. I can only be reminded of when the FAs were given some sort of pay alteration a few years ago that they refer to as "Paymageddon". The united voice had those 'imposed' changes to their pay structure rolled back so fast that it made heads spin. That was quickly followed up by an apology from an exec (FP). These proposed ESP changes resulted in the same but a much less genuine apology from management (essentially 'we said it the wrong way and won't be doing this right now but we will try again later with nicer wording'). Another example would be the trial a couple of years back that changed the pay trigger from brake release to cargo door closing. That was blamed on Honeywell and several employees were paid money owed but the majority that were unaware of the pay-related implications of that change lost out.
It is things like all of these instances which require the ironclad language of a contract, not the muffled mumblings of an agreement. There are many more reasons to want/need certified representation.
Okay, so let me see if I follow this. Your company made some changes that the employees didn't like. The employees complained and the company responded by immediately undoing the changes. Somehow joining a certified union will make that situation better. Do I have that right?
No. You couldn't be more wrong.
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True North
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Re: Update

Post by True North » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:11 pm

FenceSitter wrote:No. You couldn't be more wrong.
"As I read the comments on WN about the ESP update I am blown away by the change that a united group of employees has made so quickly. I can only be reminded of when the FAs were given some sort of pay alteration a few years ago that they refer to as "Paymageddon". The united voice had those 'imposed' changes to their pay structure rolled back so fast that it made heads spin."


Those are your words. What did I get wrong?
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JBI
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Re: J'accuse

Post by JBI » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:42 pm

sky baron wrote:

Shit, the whole industry may as well sign for ALPA. As a WHOLE, we could have national representation. Imagine that. Even if it was just the majors - AC, WJ, Transat, Sunwing who all went with the same association, our voices would be louder than ever.

Here's to better working conditions for all of us professionals. Long overdue. :drinkers:
While I do not disagree with the idea of united voices, nor do I have anything against ALPA, it would be naive to think that just because operators have the same union that they will be working together. Each union has a responsibility to get the best deal for whatever group of pilots they are negotiating for - each carrier has vastly different financial circumstances.

Although things in the US are great right now, they were horrible for most of the early 2000s. The majors furloughed tons and the regionals had crap wages. Even now, regionals that are all represented by ALPA compete against each other to the detriment of pilots at the other regionals with the same union. For example, ALPA represents Envoy, Piedmont, Trans State, Compass, ExpressJet and Air Wisconsin that all do flying for American. Air Wisconsin's fleet is shrinking while Envoy is expanding and now offering flow to its pilots. Nothing ALPA can directly do about that.

So while there are great arguments to be made for and against a union at any particular operator, be conscious of what getting a union can actually do. In my opinion national representation is not one of those.
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Art Garfunkel
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Re: J'accuse

Post by Art Garfunkel » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:35 am

JBI wrote:
sky baron wrote:

Shit, the whole industry may as well sign for ALPA. As a WHOLE, we could have national representation. Imagine that. Even if it was just the majors - AC, WJ, Transat, Sunwing who all went with the same association, our voices would be louder than ever.

Here's to better working conditions for all of us professionals. Long overdue. :drinkers:
While I do not disagree with the idea of united voices, nor do I have anything against ALPA, it would be naive to think that just because operators have the same union that they will be working together. Each union has a responsibility to get the best deal for whatever group of pilots they are negotiating for - each carrier has vastly different financial circumstances.

Although things in the US are great right now, they were horrible for most of the early 2000s. The majors furloughed tons and the regionals had crap wages. Even now, regionals that are all represented by ALPA compete against each other to the detriment of pilots at the other regionals with the same union. For example, ALPA represents Envoy, Piedmont, Trans State, Compass, ExpressJet and Air Wisconsin that all do flying for American. Air Wisconsin's fleet is shrinking while Envoy is expanding and now offering flow to its pilots. Nothing ALPA can directly do about that.

So while there are great arguments to be made for and against a union at any particular operator, be conscious of what getting a union can actually do. In my opinion national representation is not one of those.

Yes, National representation would be difficult but perhaps putting a National Standard on the table could be a thought.

The US regional model that Air Canada is trying to emulate is a disaster for pilots. But we saw the Colgan accident being a direct by-product of that model and Governmental changes were made and conditions are slowly improving. We are apples and oranges comparing Canada to the US. We are much much smaller and are therefore much more capable in changing things. Having all professional commercial and airline pilots sitting at the same table deciding on OUR future is our only hope. The current model is broken and has no chance of being fixed. This change has to be driven and supported by the top of the pilot food chain, Air Canada and Westjet.

I am for a National table where National Standards can be created for pilots. Whether it be ALPA or whoever I don't care. But ALPA Canada Board seems to share this same goal.

IMHO,

Art
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