Encore ALPA vote??

[skybaron]

What gives here? What is taking these guys so long to follow suit? I assumed with little mention of this that this was a no brainer, but I just found out that they have yet to even vote, let alone certify!

Perhaps there is a greater disconnect between the groups. Common sense would dictate that if your parent group/peers chose to unionize with a bigger voice within the company, then why be the minnow and stand on the sidelines? Especially with Encores WAWCON.

[Jimmy2]

Joining ALPA liking means losing the One List seniority system currently in place since they are separate companies.

[atphat]

There is a problem with Encore WAWCON? You would never know that talking to any Encore pilot. Things are perfect there from what I understand.

[cdnpilot77]

What gives here? What is taking these guys so long to follow suit?

Not every pilot in Canada thinks that Unions are the be all, end all saviours of the profession. We are our own worst enemies some times.

[skybaron]

What gives here? What is taking these guys so long to follow suit?

Not every pilot in Canada thinks that Unions are the be all, end all saviours of the profession. We are our own worst enemies some times.

Agreed, if it were the 90's to just shy of present.

The tide is changing. Company expansions and retirement mean that it is a great time to be a driver. A more unified stance across companies (and the country) will only be in our favour. Sitting on the sidelines having some ridiculous debate over a Union vs non in a single company will only make us take steps backwards. Welcome CEO raises.

In the end it's about having a professional association country wide. Think big fellas, and don't sell yourselves short.

[skybaron]

There is a problem with Encore WAWCON? You would never know that talking to any Encore pilot. Things are perfect there from what I understand.

Makes sense then that Encores most experienced pilots decide to quickly move over to the 737 for less than half their salary. I also understand that their CP and others have secured their mainline spot, but still work at Encore (without a paycut).

If all this is true, then it just highlights the desperate need for a unified voice.

[Dizzy D]

It's closer than you think, Encore will certify with ALPA. It's not like you flip a switch and unionize. There are a lot of pilots busting their asses to make it happen.

[Jean-Pierre]

I also understand that their CP and others have secured their mainline spot, but still work at Encore (without a paycut).

Just wait until he decide to come to Mainline and jump ahead of hundred of pilot in the seniority list. I guarantee at least one will grieve it with ALPA. Then it get interesting.

[Bede]

I also understand that their CP and others have secured their mainline spot, but still work at Encore (without a paycut).

Just wait until he decide to come to Mainline and jump ahead of hundred of pilot in the seniority list. I guarantee at least one will grieve it with ALPA. Then it get interesting.

That makes no sense. Whoever this guy is already has his spot on the WJ list and indeed will "jump ahead" of people because it's one list. Also, you don't decide to grieve something you don't like- you bring it to ALPA's attention and they decide if they want to grieve it. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean a grievance is filed.

[Jean-Pierre]

We wait and see.

[JBI]

We wait and see.

You'll be waiting for quite sometime.

[Jean-Pierre]

Could be any day now. It only take one.

[JBI]

Could be any day now. It only take one.

One what? The plot thickens.

[Bede]

Could be any day now. It only take one.

No it doesn't. The union decides grievances not employees.

[JBI]

Could be any day now. It only take one.

No it doesn't. The union decides grievances not employees.

Bede... Shhhhhh! I want to hear more about Jean-Pierre's thoughts on how unions work. It's far more interesting than what's outlined in the Canada Labour Code or, you know, reality.

[lostaviator]

There is a problem with Encore WAWCON? You would never know that talking to any Encore pilot. Things are perfect there from what I understand.

Makes sense then that Encores most experienced pilots decide to quickly move over to the 737 for less than half their salary. I also understand that their CP and others have secured their mainline spot, but still work at Encore (without a paycut).

If all this is true, then it just highlights the desperate need for a unified voice.

Curious where you got your numbers/what your math skills are like.

Encore captain = 68,000 / yr
WJ FO = 55,000 / yr

Encore = 218 days of work per year.
WestJet = 182 days of work per year.

Encore = $311 / day.
WestJet $302 / day.

If you want to factor in the ESP, I take home more money as an FO on at WJ then I ever did left seat at encore.

It's never ideal to take a pay cut, but its not like wj is the only airline in North America it happens at.

[Jimmy2]

Bede... Shhhhhh! I want to hear more about Jean-Pierre's thoughts on how unions work.

Encore isn't part of the union.
The worst part of this situation for Encore pilots is the not knowing. Everything is totally up in the air. Basically they are damned if they do and damned if they don't (unionize). If they do join ALPA they will be bound by ALPA's constitution that does not permit the current one list agreement. If they don't unionize any new hire at West Jet could complain and start the process of knocking them down the seniority list. That could also be retroactive. So even if they've been at Mainline for 5 years and think they have it made in the shade suddenly they could one day lose hundreds of places in seniority when a decision on this issue is finally made. This whole thing has got to be stressful for anyone at Encore or at WestJet that skipped ahead of OTS hires. The not knowing.

Does anyone know if flow through and the one list is written into the employment contract at Encore? If so they may have a legal leg to stand on. If it's just a gentleman's agreement it's not worth anything and you can't count on it now or in the future.

[JBI]

While I appreciate this is the internet and an anonymous forum, your post is inaccurate.

Encore isn't part of the union.
The worst part of this situation for Encore pilots is the not knowing. Everything is totally up in the air. Basically they are damned if they do and damned if they don't (unionize).

There are pros and cons to certifying. I would not say they are "damned" either way.

If they do join ALPA they will be bound by ALPA's constitution that does not permit the current one list agreement.

ALPA's Constitution does not say anything about the current one list agreement. You should read it before posting on what it does or does not say.

If they don't unionize any new hire at West Jet could complain and start the process of knocking them down the seniority list. That could also be retroactive.

No. That is not how grieving works.

So even if they've been at Mainline for 5 years and think they have it made in the shade suddenly they could one day lose hundreds of places in seniority when a decision on this issue is finally made.
This whole thing has got to be stressful for anyone at Encore or at WestJet that skipped ahead of OTS hires. The not knowing.

WestJet pilots will give direction to the MEC to negotiate a new CBA with the company which will include how seniority is determined. If a majority of WestJet pilots wanted to change the way seniority is awarded, that is something they could try to negotiate. This would not be something that they'd "suddenly" lose. Once a new CBA is negotiated I believe it still has to be voted on (I am not 100% certain on that).

Does anyone know if flow through and the one list is written into the employment contract at Encore? If so they may have a legal leg to stand on. If it's just a gentleman's agreement it's not worth anything and you can't count on it now or in the future.

It is written, but whether terms of an employment contract are written or not does not affect whether they are legally binding. Oral contracts are just as legally binding as written contracts - it is just more practical to determine the terms of a particular contract.

There is some uncertainty for the Encore pilots at the moment and I imagine that this is frustrating for many of them. Nothing remotely like your wild speculations though.

[twinpratts]

If Encore chose not to unionize, it may be that they might get to operate the NG at the LCC. Who knows, they might even get the 767's once the Dreamliners get here.
If so, they (WJPA) might be the ones laughing at us (APLA) in the end.
Whoops.

[JBI]

If Encore chose not to unionize, it may be that they might get to operate the NG at the LCC. Who knows, they might even get the 767's once the Dreamliners get here.
If so, they (WJPA) might be the ones laughing at us (APLA) in the end.
Whoops.

Nope. There are reasons (generally speaking and specific to Encore) not to unionize, but based on the current WestJet pilot agreement and the Canada Labour Code regulations and the realities of negotiating a new CBA, the likelihood of this happening is just about zero.