Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

[groundpilot]

What would have happened if Rouge had launched with a separate list? I imagine a lot of whipsawing and a bitter divided workforce.

They couldn't launch with a seperate list.
The flying is scoped and owned by ACPA pilots.
We voted "No" to second tier wawcon and then the government shoved it down our throats.

Make no mistake, there is still a divided work force.
One getting benefits from the other.
Rouge sees improvements in wawcon while the mainline gets diminished.

It's not personal and rouge has worked out great for some that are there, holding positions out of seniority, doing the best flying, getting $30k raise on the last contract...

... but it's fucked mainline 320 and 767 pilots who work way more and earn less than if that flying were still at mainline...

... it's fucked all the AC Pilots who's contract has to be diminished to try to bring rouge closer, including those rouge pilots who will one day want to come back to mainline and will find out it is less than what it was... it didn't get better, it went backwards during the days of record earnings and share prices because we tried to improve rouge.

Don't hate the player, hate the game... best move is to not let the game get out of the box (any further)...

It would be better for most AC pilots if rouge didn't exist...

If Rouge wasn't doing the flying it does, it is likely no AC pilot would be flying those routes. The company is only going to do things that make financial sense.

We left the door open for SunWing, Westjet and AT to expand. We finally get our stuff together and compete, with our weapon of Rouge, and yes we are profitable. Record profitable.

It is time to let go of that past...we are moving forward and we will improve conditions as a group but we are on a lengthy contract so we don't exactly have a ton of leverage right now....

['97 Tercel]

So if WJ pilots will do the Swoop flying where are they saving money to lower the fares? Adding a few more pax seats and charging for carry-on bags?

[True North]

Dangerous Goods,

You could be forgiven for your total ignorance on this subject as you obviously weren't there at the beginning and have never actually, personally spoken to anyone that was. Your arrogance though, you'll have to take ownership of that.

I was there. I know a couple of the principals and had the opportunity to join at the beginning. I didn't because I had just landed my dream job but I invested in the company, have stayed connected and watched the WestJet story with great interest.

My "outcast" remark was probably inappropriate and I apologize - I didn't mean any disrespect by that.

Probably? You also stated they "couldn't get on at Air Canada or Canadian". Utter nonsense. Of the 26 original pilots, the vast majority were western boys predominantly from Alberta. Half of the original group came from Canadian Regional and at least half of those guys had roots in Time Air. They had no interest in working for Air Canada and anyone with half a brain at that time could see that Canadian was already on the ropes and not a viable career option.

I was trying to illustrate that "day oners" didn't come to WJ for a spot on a mainline list, and BE20 using them as a comparison to swoop wasn't appropriate or a good reason to continue lowering the bar. Talk to any day owner and they'll tell you - " we weren't sure this thing was going to work." or "I was overseas and Tim called asking if I wanted to work for an airline that they were starting". These guys came here with little information and a lot of doubt. What they DID NOT come for was a spot on a mainline list. They took a risk and were rewarded financially instead (options). That was their rewared, NOT unfettered access to a mainline pilot list AND options. However, in the process, they accepted work for lower than industry standard. Hence "lowered the bar"...

"Mainline list"? Gibberish. What has that to do with anything? The original pilots went to work for a startup, low-cost, short haul regional airline flying 737s, based on the Southwest model. They had plenty of information and very little doubt. One of the prerequisites for an interview back then was that the candidate had a job. They were not looking for people who were just looking for a job, they were looking for people who bought into the concept. I was, and still am good friends with several of the original group and met many of the others through my friends. Not one of them ever expressed any doubt about the concept. Just the opposite. Obviously no one can predict the future but they were all confident it would work. They also possessed an entrepreneurial spirit and embraced a revolutionary compensation model - also based on the Southwest model - where their personal financial success was directly tied to the success of the company. What a concept! In the process they became the best paid pilots in Canadian aviation history. Ever. I'm having a tough time reconciling that fact with your assertion that they somehow "lowered the bar". In the end, that original group helped lay the foundation for a company that has an international reputation as a first class operation, world class training, an exemplary safety record and now employs some 1500 Canadian pilots with very good wages and working conditions, despite what you and some others would have us believe. You should show a little more respect.

Finally, the original pilots didn't get rich off their options. They got rich by buying into the company before it went public and investing in their future.

I know nothing of history though

That is obvious.

Can't wait for my history lesson, teach!

Consider yourself educated.

School is out.

[altiplano]

If Rouge wasn't doing the flying it does, it is likely no AC pilot would be flying those routes. The company is only going to do things that make financial sense.

Still buying that line, eh?

The difference is in the seat density.

I agree we have to move forward, but you are a fool if you forget the past or think a few bucks saved up front make or break the route.

The value to corporation was dividing the pilots and setting in motion the long term erosion of the entire mainline contract. Now that they have their extra planes and new hires have their pension, it's time move forward and stop giving up anything, and don't forget what we already lost.

[infiniteregulus]

Forgive my ignorance, but why and how did the government force the contract onto the pilots? If all the pilots said no to the creation of Rouge, and some government crony says get back to work, why can't the pilots just remain on strike? How is it forced?

[True North]

Forgive my ignorance, but why and how did the government force the contract onto the pilots? If all the pilots said no to the creation of Rouge, and some government crony says get back to work, why can't the pilots just remain on strike? How is it forced?

Seriously?

[altiplano]

The pilots voted down the TA that created rouge and gutted the pension for new hires among other things and AC management threatened to lock them out - Lisa Raitt and The Harper Government came up with the Protecting Air Services Act in the name of protecting the economy.

The Act specified that under Final Offer arbitration it was winner take all and basically specified that the arbitrator HAD to side with Air Canada... Voila - B-scale in, Pension out, and a host of other real gems... 3 years later AC is making record profits and the Pilots are left holding the bag...

[infiniteregulus]

Interesting...

"Enforcement

Marginal note:Individuals

34 (1) An individual who contravenes any provision of this Act is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction and is liable, for each day or part of a day during which the offence continues, to a fine of

(a) not more than $50,000 if the individual was acting in the capacity of an officer or representative of the employer, the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers or the Air Canada Pilots Association when the offence was committed; or

(b) not more than $1,000 in any other case."

I never knew you could be fined for the government for exercising your right to strike. Seems like us pilots are slaves...

[Coast-dog]

Anyone sign up for the mailing list to get job fair info? I'm not optimistic that WAWCON will be more than anticipated but hopeful that someone somewhere figures out they can't keep screwing the workforce...

[DropTanks]

Anyone sign up for the mailing list to get job fair info? I'm not optimistic that WAWCON will be more than anticipated but hopeful that someone somewhere figures out they can't keep screwing the workforce...

I assume you're talking about cabin crew positions? Flight crew will be Westjet Pilots.

[Maritimer]

This has obviously been a very hot topic in the flight deck as of late. While its true that we know absolutely nothing about the WAWCON or anything else for that matter there is one very large constant in all of the conversations I've had. The overwhelmingly majority (that I've spoken to) feel the same way.

1. Swoop flying is to be done by WS pilots at no discounted rate

OR

2. Any pilot who leaves Encore or Mainline to go fly for Swoop should lose their spot and any benefits of being on the one-list. All association with the WJ pilot list is nullified. Further lowering of the bar cannot go unnoticed.

Rip this apart if you wish. THIS IS how, from what I can tell anyway, MOST WJ pilots feel.

Flame away.

[twinpratts]

Anyone sign up for the mailing list to get job fair info? I'm not optimistic that WAWCON will be more than anticipated but hopeful that someone somewhere figures out they can't keep screwing the workforce...

I assume you're talking about cabin crew positions? Flight crew will be Westjet Pilots.

Hmmm. It doesn't say that anywhere...

[DropTanks]

Anyone sign up for the mailing list to get job fair info? I'm not optimistic that WAWCON will be more than anticipated but hopeful that someone somewhere figures out they can't keep screwing the workforce...

I assume you're talking about cabin crew positions? Flight crew will be Westjet Pilots.

Hmmm. It doesn't say that anywhere...

Considering both the company and ALPA are stating that the flying will be done by pilots on the WPDL I feel pretty safe saying that. Furthermore the Swoop website hiring page only shows positions other than Pilots.

[seriousflyer]

The problem with removing the pilots from the "one list" because they accept a position at swoop is that it creates "whipsawwing". The pilots at swoop will start to compete with Classic pilots (westjet) pilots for routes, aircraft, contracts, expansion.

The best way, IMO, is to keep everyone on the same list and have opportunities to "bid back" westjet or vice versa. Once Encore is certified, the NC is hoping to have all pilots be able to bid to any type or opportunity. The difference in flying for each operation will be a different contract pay scale. I understand encore has to be lower hourly rates, but Swoop should be equal to westjet rates. Same type = same pay. One list.

[BE20 Driver]

Whipsawing is the elephant in the room. If it is not addressed right from the beginning, 5-10 years down the road, it will become a much bigger problem than any one particular pay scale.

[pacman007]

You all forget that Swoop is a ULCC. There is only so much market for a ULCC in canada so we won't see 787s 67s flying at Swoop. If the Westjet pilots fly it fine, if they don't thats also fine. there is no way Swoop will turn into another major airline in canada. The problem is it will be nearly impossible for a pilot to go to mainline westjet anymore. If you are at Mainline you will have a good stable job with a good contract. Unfortunately Encore and Swoop pilots will be paying for it!

[Transonic]

Whipsawing is the elephant in the room. If it is not addressed right from the beginning, 5-10 years down the road, it will become a much bigger problem than any one particular pay scale.

Whipsawing is front and centre. The consequences have clearly been shown through the past three decades. Everyone is aware of the threat.

In order to have a whipsaw, you need to have a competing group on the other side. The moment a WestJet/Encore pilot skips the cue to jump to the other side for personal gain, is the first movement of the saw.

[Transonic]

Unfortunately Encore and Swoop pilots will be paying for it!

That's a strange comment. If Swoop does exist with lower WAWCON it will always be a drag on mainline wages. WS pilots will be forever reminded of Swoop pilots doing more work for less at every negotiation.

But for now, all of this is hypothetical.

With respect to WS growth, the fact is 10 787s show up in the next 4.5 years. After which, it is highly likely the 10 remaining options will be exercised in the 3 years following 2021. If your optimistic, wide body growth will continue after that. There are still good opportunities at WS for many.

So sit back, relax and enjoy your spot in the cue.

[DropTanks]

Unfortunately Encore and Swoop pilots will be paying for it!

That's a strange comment. If Swoop does exist with lower WAWCON it will always be a drag on mainline wages. WS pilots will be forever reminded of Swoop pilots doing more work for less at every negotiation.

But for now, all of this is hypothetical.

With respect to WS growth, the fact is 10 787s show up in the next 4.5 years. After which, it is highly likely the 10 remaining options will be exercised in the 3 years following 2021. If your optimistic, wide body growth will continue after that. There are still good opportunities at WS for many.

So sit back, relax and enjoy your spot in the cue.

The 10 options are a foregone conclusion. The number being thrown around is more like 40 WB would help us capture market share similar to our domestic market share. Take that as you will but I see the WB growth as a huge potential for WJ and it's pilots.

[Jimmy2]

All those saying that Swoop pilots are going to be Wesjet pilots working for the same pay and working conditions they had at mainline need to do some honest soul searching and ask themselves if they truly believe that. They are already an LCC so their wages are very umm... competitive, but when you add that U to the LCC there must be further cuts to costs. To think those cuts are going to come from everywhere but your department is quite naive (or narcissistic).

Let's not forget Jazz pilots operated 757's a few years back.