Meet Swoop - WestJet's ultra-low-cost carrier has a name, a home and a purpose

[Eric Janson]

]Australia just recognized their pilot shortage and have opened up their express immigration to professional pilots.

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/189-

Was discussing this with my Australian colleague a few days ago. The issue is that companies don't want to pay Type Rating costs to upgrade their citizens and are trying to hire rated people from outside the country.

The Unions are all over this.

There is no Pilot shortage in Australia.

[HansDietrich]

]Australia just recognized their pilot shortage and have opened up their express immigration to professional pilots.

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/189-

Was discussing this with my Australian colleague a few days ago. The issue is that companies don't want to pay Type Rating costs to upgrade their citizens and are trying to hire rated people from outside the country.

The Unions are all over this.

There is no Pilot shortage in Australia.

Oh boy! I want to comment so much on this, but I best keep my mouth shut.

[altiplano]

There is a world wide shortage.

Australia might be late to the party...

[Spruce Moose]

65%? The last thing anyone at Encore wants to do is flow to a ULCC with FO wages bordering the poverty line and Capt wages no better than a TTC bus driver and prolong the 19 day a month misery, when all we hoped was to eventually flow to mainline with decent WAWCON. That's the whole point isn't it? That being said nothing has been put on the table so it's just speculation as of now. No one has a hard on to rush onto a 37 just because it's a jet if it means shooting ourselves in the foot, otherwise it would have all been for nothing in my opinion. We'll just have to wait and see for now.

[atphat]

I don’t think Encore pilots will have a say or choice in Swoop. ALPA or not. This will be decided by the WJ pilot group. It is their fleet and routes being canabalized.

[Spruce Moose]

Agree'd. I was just saying I think that the vast majority at Encore do not want to undercut the pilots at Mainline if we had a chance to flow to Swoop - if that's how the company plans on filling the seats. As you said, everything still has to be negotiated and nothing is on the table. Good luck guys.

[lostaviator]

No one will have a say except management. Their planes. New company. Their call.

The last representation didn’t think it would be appropriate to put narrowbody scope in the agreement. Only future wide body growth is mentioned in relation to the WJ OC.

[Dry Guy]

Encore and even Westjet are seen as stepping stones by many many pilots. To Air Canada or other flag carriers overseas. The ULCC is going to be just one more stepping stone. To say they won't be able to attract pilots is narrow thinking. Not everyone is planning a career as a regional 737 pilot.

[infiniteregulus]

I feel like my whole career is a stepping stone

[flyinhigh]

Not everyone is planning a career as a regional 737 pilot.

Did you seriously just call Westjet a regional airline???.....

[BE20 Driver]

Isn't 65% of WJ pay even less than Encore pay? Somebody with recent numbers will have to verify.

I don't have recent numbers. Using the current scale though, 65% of a mainline captain wage is just over $90/hour. Encore tops out somewhere around $75. This is all speculation though, I could start a rumour with just as much basis that said GS wants the pilots to work under an unpaid internship. I don't think they can do either. No matter what the scope is/was, if the go too low it can be seen as an attempt to circumvent the union at mainline. I don't think the CIRB would think highly of that.

You BOTL guys crack me up. Must be a nice view on your high horses looking down on everyone else. There are plenty of reasons why someone might choose to go over to woops. Getting a YYC Captain spot instead of commuting to YYZ might just be worth it to some. You're worried that you won't be able to afford your next Mazaratti payment while the rest of the people at the bottom see this as an opportunity to actually be able to get a raise in either pay or lifestyle and not have to worry about the next Enmax bill.

Encore and even Westjet are seen as stepping stones by many many pilots. To Air Canada or other flag carriers overseas. The ULCC is going to be just one more stepping stone. To say they won't be able to attract pilots is narrow thinking.

When I first flowed up to mainline, I was surprised at the number of Captains at least looking at overseas flying as a next step. Looking doesn't actually mean they will go but a good portion of people are questioning the long term implications of staying. Now, I'm seeing a trend of FO's asking around about either applying to AC or looking for info about heading overseas. The number of Encore pilots unwilling to wait for a WS spot is telling. The stick is too long and the carrot isn't appealing enough any longer.

[sstaurus]

You BOTL guys crack me up. Must be a nice view on your high horses looking down on everyone else. There are plenty of reasons why someone might choose to go over to woops. Getting a YYC Captain spot instead of commuting to YYZ might just be worth it to some. You're worried that you won't be able to afford your next Mazaratti payment...

Well I guess we know you don't own a Maserati since you can't spell it... just kidding here.

But on to the other point, I hope everyone says no to this continuing race to the bottom for everyone. The movement of the goal posts farther away yet again... Union be damned GS will divide the pilot group one way or another. Like someone said above... I'm starting to feel like my whole career is a stepping stone

[seriousflyer]

It's just rumours as of now. "Encore flows to ULCC and then onto mainline" that's just a rumour.
Some would speculate that once we have one list solified - the company will put out bids for "10 mainline 737 bids, and 10 swoop 737 bids" based on senirorty the positions will be awarded.
An encore/westjet pilot can take the swoop bid if eligible. The contract for swoop will be different parameters or the same as westjet mainline (one would hope) but Westjet pilots are negotiating as we speak on how Swoop will be staffed.

[Dangerous Goods]

You BOTL guys crack me up. Must be a nice view on your high horses looking down on everyone else. There are plenty of reasons why someone might choose to go over to woops. Getting a YYC Captain spot instead of commuting to YYZ might just be worth it to some. You're worried that you won't be able to afford your next Mazaratti payment...

You "I'll sell out my fellow aviators, cheapen my career and de-value my profession for personal gain" guys crack me up!

Simply put - if you're willing to promote the race to the bottom, then that's where you belong - at the bottom. NO LIST FOR YOU!

[altiplano]

You BOTL guys crack me up. Must be a nice view on your high horses looking down on everyone else. There are plenty of reasons why someone might choose to go over to woops. Getting a YYC Captain spot instead of commuting to YYZ might just be worth it to some.

For a guy who just ran a thread saying how disillusioned he was and that he couldn't afford to provide for his family, despite making it to the hallowed ground of one of the larger carriers in Canada - I'm surprised you would have this take...

the reason you are challenged in earnings is because others have stepped over others for less pay with more work and justified it with reasons just like that.

Until Canadian pilots get their heads out of their asses and say:

"it's not okay and I won't do the same job for less"
"I won't work more, under worse conditions than my peers"

we will continue circling the bowl.

This behaviour is why you don't make enough to support your family. Why are you justifying it?

I flew with a WB Captain recently that told me his father, a senior DC9 Captain, made more 30 years ago in actual dollars - not inflation adjusted - than he does today and worked half as much... He haf a better pension, better benefits... and yet here we are circling the bowl... take a look in the mirror... all of us.

[atphat]

Well said.

[Cat Driver]

and Capt wages no better than a TTC bus driver

And the TTC bus driver has better working hours, better security and less stress.

[FAD3C]

Well said.

+1

[BE20 Driver]

Even at 65% of a mainline wage, it's a pay INCREASE for a guy in the first 3 years at mainline. That includes everyone who ever started at Encore.
Why is it a raise? Because no one actually stood up and did anything when Encore's wages were announced or the announcement that we would start at the bottom of the pay scale when we flowed over. Sure, I had lots of appologies, but no one actually took any action (one guy brought us donuts to feed us on a deadhead.)

The guys who I've run into that are screaming BOTL so much are mostly guys that came here when upgrades were significantly shorter than they are now. Don't try to tell me what it's like at the bottom of the list these days. You have no clue what the struggle is like taking the pay cut to fly the 737. What if a YVR-YYZ commuter decided to take a whoops captain spot for 10% less. You're going to tell him not to do it because it will negatively affect your pay cheque. Everyone has a reason for considering this. The opportunities and challenges that you had in your career are not the same as the ones that I'm presented with.

PIC time is king. Maybe if you tie my two rants together you'll see that some people are considering this as the way out the door. I'm tired of starting my career over just above the poverty line.

[altiplano]

You can explain it however you want.

It makes your complaints about low pay at Westjet mainline hypocritical though if you are prepared to go do it for less.

You shouldn't be saying: "I'll step over, out of seniority, and do the same job for less"

You should be saying: "That's westjet pilot work and westjet pilots should be doing it, I'll get my upgrade when my # is up at full pay"

If Westjet pilots did the Swoop work how many more positions would that be? It has the power to be positive and advance your timeline, but supporting B-scale ultimately hurts but just you, but your colleagues present and future.

That's why your management wants to divide you.

Just look at the timing of the announcement of a ULCC... Right as your ALPA vote was starting right? You have to know management sensed the wind of change and is seeking to undermine/split you.