Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
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Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
A comprehensive pay comparison PDF broken down by fleet type. Includes per diem comparison as well.
It breaks down pay based on DB/DC plans as well, but the new AC pilot pension plan (replacing the DC) is a MEPP which takes effect in the new year.
Figures to the right for each fleet (in red) show how far behind most of the hourly rates are.
To sum it up, over a 25 year career on a narrowbody (737 Max-9) a Westjet pilot will make approximately $652,800 (pre-tax) less than an AC pilot (737 Max-9), due to lack of step-on 1:1 for the left seat, and low hourly rates.
.pdf available here:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=187 ... 4072228024
It breaks down pay based on DB/DC plans as well, but the new AC pilot pension plan (replacing the DC) is a MEPP which takes effect in the new year.
Figures to the right for each fleet (in red) show how far behind most of the hourly rates are.
To sum it up, over a 25 year career on a narrowbody (737 Max-9) a Westjet pilot will make approximately $652,800 (pre-tax) less than an AC pilot (737 Max-9), due to lack of step-on 1:1 for the left seat, and low hourly rates.
.pdf available here:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=187 ... 4072228024
Last edited by Soixante-Neuf on Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
I haven't downloaded the file yet but does it take into account income tax? How much of that $652,800 will go to tax man at variable tax rates over time?
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Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
Looked at it briefly and two things stand out.
1. You use and 8 year upgrade at WS and a 4 year at AC. What are the numbers when they both upgrade at the same time?
2. Per diems, doesn't WS use chocks off to chocks on at you base for calculating per diems? And AC uses time slots that trigger the payment for a meal, i.e. you have to be on layover at a certain time to get the breakfast, lunch and dinner allowances... That being said, I think WS is still behind AC for per diems but the gap isn't as big as you make it to be.
I may be out in left field for all of the above.
1. You use and 8 year upgrade at WS and a 4 year at AC. What are the numbers when they both upgrade at the same time?
2. Per diems, doesn't WS use chocks off to chocks on at you base for calculating per diems? And AC uses time slots that trigger the payment for a meal, i.e. you have to be on layover at a certain time to get the breakfast, lunch and dinner allowances... That being said, I think WS is still behind AC for per diems but the gap isn't as big as you make it to be.
I may be out in left field for all of the above.
Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
Yes, lack of YOS certainly drags us down. I believe as do many, that YOS is a priority in our current negotiations. Most of us upgraded and endure some awful commutes primarily to get on the CA pay scale, which would not be necessary with a proper YOS.
MHO
MHO
Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
I didn't download it...
Did you include overseas and navaid pay?
That's about another $23/hr for CAs, $12 for FOs.
Makes a big difference when you hold blocks paid at mostly the higher night rates too...
Did you include overseas and navaid pay?
That's about another $23/hr for CAs, $12 for FOs.
Makes a big difference when you hold blocks paid at mostly the higher night rates too...
Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
There is a fundamental flaw in the assumption that WS ESPP contributions plus the 100% company match of the ESPP (taking base rate to 120%) are equivalent or in substitution to a DB/DC pension plan and hence reduce the base hourly rate. In reality a maximum of 18% of base pay up to the available RRSP limit can be contributed to an RRSP, the remainder (22% of base pay) will be available after 1 year escrow as sellable shares. The adjusted hourly rate will be a minimum of 102% of base hourly rate, not 80%, assuming no gain of loss on average in share price over a one year period.
Also, not including an estimate of profit share for both AC and WS doesn't give the true average compensation. In the case of WS thus has been a low of 8% and a high of 20% per year over the past 5 years, with 10 to 12% being a good annual average.
In the end it doesn't look like there is any significant difference in total compensation when assuming WS pension is maximum CRA allowable RRSP contribution and taking realistic values for profit share for both companies, for operating the same equipment with the same experience between AC or WS.
Also, not including an estimate of profit share for both AC and WS doesn't give the true average compensation. In the case of WS thus has been a low of 8% and a high of 20% per year over the past 5 years, with 10 to 12% being a good annual average.
In the end it doesn't look like there is any significant difference in total compensation when assuming WS pension is maximum CRA allowable RRSP contribution and taking realistic values for profit share for both companies, for operating the same equipment with the same experience between AC or WS.
Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
If you want to include beyond the monthly pay cheque:
- 8% of salary profit share the past 3 years
- 3.33% of your total salary available in stock options
- 175% match of your 6% contribution to your pension, not ITA limited under the new plan (10.5% on top of total salary)
If someone wants to do the math... there you go...
- 8% of salary profit share the past 3 years
- 3.33% of your total salary available in stock options
- 175% match of your 6% contribution to your pension, not ITA limited under the new plan (10.5% on top of total salary)
If someone wants to do the math... there you go...
Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
AC total compensation = base + profit share + company pension match + stock options = 100 + 8 + 10.5 + 3.33 = 122% of base.altiplano wrote:If you want to include beyond the monthly pay cheque:
- 8% of salary profit share the past 3 years
- 3.33% of your total salary available in stock options
- 175% match of your 6% contribution to your pension, not ITA limited under the new plan (10.5% on top of total salary)
If someone wants to do the math... there you go...
WS total compensation = base + profit share + company ESPP match +stock options (based on mid scale amount) = 100 + 10 + 20 + 6 = 136% of base.
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Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
So WJ pays more?aerobod wrote:AC total compensation = base + profit share + company pension match + stock options = 100 + 8 + 10.5 + 3.33 = 122% of base.altiplano wrote:If you want to include beyond the monthly pay cheque:
- 8% of salary profit share the past 3 years
- 3.33% of your total salary available in stock options
- 175% match of your 6% contribution to your pension, not ITA limited under the new plan (10.5% on top of total salary)
If someone wants to do the math... there you go...
WS total compensation = base + profit share + company ESPP match +stock options (based on mid scale amount) = 100 + 10 + 20 + 6 = 136% of base.
Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
About the same, when a risk factor is added for higher performance based pay and the slightly higher AC base rates. Years with good stock performance will see higher T4s for WSers, poor stock performance years will likely see ACets ahead.groundpilot wrote:So WJ pays more?aerobod wrote:AC total compensation = base + profit share + company pension match + stock options = 100 + 8 + 10.5 + 3.33 = 122% of base.altiplano wrote:If you want to include beyond the monthly pay cheque:
- 8% of salary profit share the past 3 years
- 3.33% of your total salary available in stock options
- 175% match of your 6% contribution to your pension, not ITA limited under the new plan (10.5% on top of total salary)
If someone wants to do the math... there you go...
WS total compensation = base + profit share + company ESPP match +stock options (based on mid scale amount) = 100 + 10 + 20 + 6 = 136% of base.
Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
Ummmmm no. Not even close. WJ is solidly in second place as far as $$$ goes in Canada.aerobod wrote:About the same, when a risk factor is added for higher performance based pay and the slightly higher AC base rates. Years with good stock performance will see higher T4s for WSers, poor stock performance years will likely see ACets ahead.groundpilot wrote:So WJ pays more?aerobod wrote: AC total compensation = base + profit share + company pension match + stock options = 100 + 8 + 10.5 + 3.33 = 122% of base.
WS total compensation = base + profit share + company ESPP match +stock options (based on mid scale amount) = 100 + 10 + 20 + 6 = 136% of base.
Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
That's not what the total compensation data shows, please present an analysis that demonstrates your point.DropTanks wrote:Ummmmm no. Not even close. WJ is solidly in second place as far as $$$ goes in Canada.aerobod wrote:About the same, when a risk factor is added for higher performance based pay and the slightly higher AC base rates. Years with good stock performance will see higher T4s for WSers, poor stock performance years will likely see ACets ahead.groundpilot wrote:
So WJ pays more?
Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
Just look at the payscales side by side. Then account for no YOS at WJ, then account for AC pays their STD/LTD, higher per diems...and don't forget their night pay, nav pay etc. it's just simple math.aerobod wrote:That's not what the total compensation data shows, please present an analysis that demonstrates your point.DropTanks wrote:Ummmmm no. Not even close. WJ is solidly in second place as far as $$$ goes in Canada.aerobod wrote: About the same, when a risk factor is added for higher performance based pay and the slightly higher AC base rates. Years with good stock performance will see higher T4s for WSers, poor stock performance years will likely see ACets ahead.
Rouge might be a different story but mainline is not "about the same" as WJ.
Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
The pay scales are only the starting point. The corporate performance based additions are considerably higher at WS, let alone lower tax on share gains where capital gains vs income tax is payable (worth approximately 3% annually of pay in my case over more than a 10 year period). T4 earnings at WS have been about 136% of base pay over the past 5 years, adding in OPA and an effective allowance for capital gains over income tax (compared with the capital gains eligible earnings at AC) take this close to 140% of base pay. It sounds as though AC T4 earnings have been 122% of base pay over the past 3 years. That 18% difference makes up for the other differences. WestJet pays for STD (using default settings in the benefits package selection) but not LTD, the main reason is that it is then tax free if it has to be used, if the employer pays it is fully taxable if used.DropTanks wrote:Just look at the payscales side by side. Then account for no YOS at WJ, then account for AC pays their STD/LTD, higher per diems...and don't forget their night pay, nav pay etc. it's just simple math.aerobod wrote:That's not what the total compensation data shows, please present an analysis that demonstrates your point.DropTanks wrote:
Ummmmm no. Not even close. WJ is solidly in second place as far as $$$ goes in Canada.
Rouge might be a different story but mainline is not "about the same" as WJ.
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Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
We have some pretty expensive airplanes showing up starting next year. Throw in heavily discounted fares on new international routes and the cost of marketing in new countries etc. With the ALPA negotiations coming up, I'm pretty sure the executive team will make sure the books show as little profit as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if my profit share amounts to a couple of extra buddy passes.
Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
I just did the math up to year 19. I chose year 19 because it got the WS guys upgraded in year 8 to the top of their pay scale and an AC guy will likely hold 767/787 captain by then... Junior AC 737/320 Cpt is less than 4 years seniority now, I understand WS is about 8 years to upgrade. I upgraded the AC guy in year 4...
I used the pay scales from AC and WS from airline pilot central... if the WS scale is off on that there may be a slight difference from your file... maybe post the scales here and we can check their accuracy but I'm not clicking an unknown download.
I based it on:
AC year 4 upgrade
WS year 8 upgrade
900 hours/year
WS:
20% employee stock match
10% profit share
AC:
10.5% pension contribution
3.33% employee stock match
8% profit share
only 15% of captain hours paid overseas/nav premium
1/2 day - 1/2 night
I've got the total compensation difference at about $673,500...
You can talk about capital gains all you like but that can go either way.. I think you have to count it as straight payout if the performance were flat. Right now I'm holding AC stock that I got for a fraction of the price of the current market value and WJA is 23% off it's 3 year high...
We aren't counting the future performance of the TB/DB Pensions or the fully company funded DB SERP for the AC guys either... or the life insurance, short/long term disability or benefit differences either, or training pay differences, transport allowance, check-in/out allowance, or variance in per diems... I don't know what WS has in that regard...
I used the pay scales from AC and WS from airline pilot central... if the WS scale is off on that there may be a slight difference from your file... maybe post the scales here and we can check their accuracy but I'm not clicking an unknown download.
I based it on:
AC year 4 upgrade
WS year 8 upgrade
900 hours/year
WS:
20% employee stock match
10% profit share
AC:
10.5% pension contribution
3.33% employee stock match
8% profit share
only 15% of captain hours paid overseas/nav premium
1/2 day - 1/2 night
I've got the total compensation difference at about $673,500...
You can talk about capital gains all you like but that can go either way.. I think you have to count it as straight payout if the performance were flat. Right now I'm holding AC stock that I got for a fraction of the price of the current market value and WJA is 23% off it's 3 year high...
We aren't counting the future performance of the TB/DB Pensions or the fully company funded DB SERP for the AC guys either... or the life insurance, short/long term disability or benefit differences either, or training pay differences, transport allowance, check-in/out allowance, or variance in per diems... I don't know what WS has in that regard...
Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
So then I thought maybe the early upgrade at AC, even though that is what it is and will continue to be as age 65 hits this December, didn't give a fair comparison... so I reworked the #s.
Same deal as above, except BOTH AC and WS upgrade in year 6.
I have a difference of about $297,000 - certainly narrows it, but it's pretty definitive I'd say.
- the AC years of service vs. WS years of status captain pay really kills it...
- the blended hourly captain pay at AC is higher until year 12 at WS
- Night heavy blocks at AC will pay even more
- Overseas/NAV pay at AC adds about 10% to the hourly rate - AC is planning numerous routes on the max, an all overseas block will be possible for many pilots
- Big part of WS compensation lies in riding money and waiting for vesting in an airline stock = potential for losses
Anyway - bash away...
Same deal as above, except BOTH AC and WS upgrade in year 6.
I have a difference of about $297,000 - certainly narrows it, but it's pretty definitive I'd say.
- the AC years of service vs. WS years of status captain pay really kills it...
- the blended hourly captain pay at AC is higher until year 12 at WS
- Night heavy blocks at AC will pay even more
- Overseas/NAV pay at AC adds about 10% to the hourly rate - AC is planning numerous routes on the max, an all overseas block will be possible for many pilots
- Big part of WS compensation lies in riding money and waiting for vesting in an airline stock = potential for losses
Anyway - bash away...
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Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
Are you keeping the WS calculation on the 737 scale the whole time and moving the AC one onto a wide body after a certain time?altiplano wrote:So then I thought maybe the early upgrade at AC, even though that is what it is and will continue to be as age 65 hits this December, didn't give a fair comparison... so I reworked the #s.
Same deal as above, except BOTH AC and WS upgrade in year 6.
I have a difference of about $297,000 - certainly narrows it, but it's pretty definitive I'd say.
- the AC years of service vs. WS years of status captain pay really kills it...
- the blended hourly captain pay at AC is higher until year 12 at WS
- Night heavy blocks at AC will pay even more
- Overseas/NAV pay at AC adds about 10% to the hourly rate - AC is planning numerous routes on the max, an all overseas block will be possible for many pilots
- Big part of WS compensation lies in riding money and waiting for vesting in an airline stock = potential for losses
Anyway - bash away...
Re: Westjet vs. AC Pilot Pay Comparison PDF
Career trajectory projections are at best specious. The fact that one AC pilot with 4 years of tenure can hold 737/320 CA does not mean that every AC pilot with 4 years of service can hold 737/320 CA. The fact is that a few 4th year AC pilots can hold 737/320 CA is because hundreds of more senior pilots have passed on that opportunity. So, for a few 5th year AC pilots the pay rate will be $200/hr+. But for 95% or more the pay rate will be that of 5th year EMB CA/ NB FO/ Rouge FO/ WB FO/ WB RP.
The compensation comparison is interesting but also misses lifestyle considerations and the consequences of a junior schedule. In addition, 12 months on reserve at AC can easily result in total annual pay below 900 hours. The RSV monthly pay guarantee is DMM-7 and the 900 hour annual minimum pay guarantee is for blockholders and is prorated for months spent on RSV.
As for the actual direct cost comparison of an AC NB CA vs a WJ NB CA - I suspect that will be a topic that will be beaten to death at the WJ/ALPA bargaining table.
The compensation comparison is interesting but also misses lifestyle considerations and the consequences of a junior schedule. In addition, 12 months on reserve at AC can easily result in total annual pay below 900 hours. The RSV monthly pay guarantee is DMM-7 and the 900 hour annual minimum pay guarantee is for blockholders and is prorated for months spent on RSV.
As for the actual direct cost comparison of an AC NB CA vs a WJ NB CA - I suspect that will be a topic that will be beaten to death at the WJ/ALPA bargaining table.