You're not understanding what is at stake. Scope is everything. For a pilot group nothing should be placed as a higher value than scope. Ask Quantas, AC, Lufthansa pilots what scope means. And what happens when you don't protect it. I'm not saying the 37 should be flying into YXS. That's not really the point. WJ management has shown they will act unilaterally, as they should, in the absence of a scope agreement. Someone mentioned when is Pasco putting in an order for Q400's. In time that is a very valid question. Better yet, when is Swoop getting Dreamliners.....or Encore for that matter.swimming wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:23 amExactly. This is a way to feed from smaller markets into the WJ system through a capacity purchase agreement. With the expansion into Wide bodies and the new opportunities with the Max this is a way to put butts in those seats. The markets being proposed for Wj Link can't support Jet or Q service. Now someone who may have had to drive to YYC or may have booked AC in the past because of connectivity with a tier 3 like Georgian now has the option to connect into the the WJ network with Pasco. For example YXS-YYC was tried with Encore but was not feasible with a Q400. Now that service is available with a Saab 340. 20 people on a Q=not good. 20 People on a 340=good. Pasco is a great airline and this partnership will be beneficial for all. Having more guests flying out of YYC will also help maintain that base size for WJ which I'm sure many WJ pilots will appreciate.
WestJet introduces WestJet Link
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Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ts-398259/
Protect your scope - or nothing prevents WJA from doing something like Swiss did when the eventual 87's arrive.
Protect your scope - or nothing prevents WJA from doing something like Swiss did when the eventual 87's arrive.
- infiniteregulus
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Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
Agreed. It's very naive to allow separate growth without protection of your own operation. It's well documented in history.
Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
Pasco pilots are paid par or better than Encore aren't they? I'm not sure where the advantage would for WJ to have Pasco fly Q's
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Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
When Pasco asks for a raise to wages and working conditions, Saretsky will say Encore is doing it for the same price. Then he’ll say the same about Pasco to Encore when they ask for a raise.
Ask the 1000+ pilots on Jazz’s B scale how the AC express diversification is working out for them.
Scope is everything in this game. I’m sure if AC management had it their way all narrowbody flying would be at Jazz/Sky/GGN and mainline would be only wide Body. The advantage WS management has for the time being is that there is absolutely nothing protecting scope. Swoop could very well be the airline the 787’s go to.
Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
I don’t want this to sound like I’m endorsing this new development or in case Saretsky reads this forum, endorsing him, this was a brilliant move even though he didn’t come up with it himself, history being what it is.
If scope wasn’t on WJ ALPAs radar before, it is now and that is going to cost them! The old WJ culture is long gone now, replaced with or soon will be replaced with a mutual disdain, to be honest I’m sure Saretsky already held that for pilots in general before he even came to WJ. This is going to get bitter and it appears WJ holds some very good cards at this point, the pilots may need to bluff(strike action) to win this hand.
I don’t believe there was anything drafted up to even restrict Encore from getting anything other than Q, from memory I believe it was just the pilots ok to start a separate company with trust they wouldn’t get screwed by the company, I would think that trust is mostly gone. Even if there was an agreement regarding Encore, it appears nothing preventing new entities or partners from anything he can think up, including widebodies to swoop, what will WJ pilots do now to prevent that.
To the pilots who apparently believe in unicorns, it starts with markets that can’t be served by bigger now and expands to other markets that can’t support frequencies of bigger, its very naive to think this is not a threat, it’s just the beginning.
If scope wasn’t on WJ ALPAs radar before, it is now and that is going to cost them! The old WJ culture is long gone now, replaced with or soon will be replaced with a mutual disdain, to be honest I’m sure Saretsky already held that for pilots in general before he even came to WJ. This is going to get bitter and it appears WJ holds some very good cards at this point, the pilots may need to bluff(strike action) to win this hand.
I don’t believe there was anything drafted up to even restrict Encore from getting anything other than Q, from memory I believe it was just the pilots ok to start a separate company with trust they wouldn’t get screwed by the company, I would think that trust is mostly gone. Even if there was an agreement regarding Encore, it appears nothing preventing new entities or partners from anything he can think up, including widebodies to swoop, what will WJ pilots do now to prevent that.
To the pilots who apparently believe in unicorns, it starts with markets that can’t be served by bigger now and expands to other markets that can’t support frequencies of bigger, its very naive to think this is not a threat, it’s just the beginning.
"Stand-by, I'm inverted"
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Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
To those who think this will expand WJ/WJE flying, ask yourself this. Why isn't Encore flying the Saabs (or a smaller Dash)? CommutAir is retiring their Q200s, so they wouldn't even have to buy from Chorus.
The pilot work force is in the process of re-organising. Management is clearly taking advantage of this.
The pilot work force is in the process of re-organising. Management is clearly taking advantage of this.
Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
Besides the tip toeing around the union...Could it also be just a case of Westjet not having to spend capital on smaller dash's, just stoke a cheque each month to pasco. If it ends up being successful, westjet encore then decides to purchase smaller a/c to fly into these smaller markets? Pasco's curent saab capt pay was 66-105k. Will be interesting to see if the "Link flying" will be paid the same.
Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
Going nowhere, pls remind me why Jazz doesn’t fly Georgians b1900? Lol
- NewCommercialPilot
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Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
So your analysis of the business case for WJ Link is that the management team was waiting for WJ pilots to certify before pulling the trigger on the project? Or do you think that they started thinking of the possibilities only since the mainline pilots certified in May?goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:10 pm The pilot work force is in the process of re-organising. Management is clearly taking advantage of this.
I do think you are in the right arena with your thinking. Since the pilots decided they did not want a collaborative approach to employee/management relations (WJPA) and instead wanted a formalized relationship (ALPA), they (pilots) will reap what they have sown. Good luck with that.
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Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
WJ pilots don't have an ALPA contract yet. It would dictate things like scope. With WJPA, they discussed the Encore expansion before proceeding. Currently the pilot group is in limbo. Management is doing whatever they want because they currently can, they clearly have very little regard for their pilots.
What I don't get is why WJ management doesn't want to collaborate with ALPA, it doesn't have to be a hostile relationship. Yet that's exactly the direction management is going.
What I don't get is why WJ management doesn't want to collaborate with ALPA, it doesn't have to be a hostile relationship. Yet that's exactly the direction management is going.
Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
My understanding was that management at Westjet had been operating under the expectation that Pilots would unionize for some time.
Further, look at the model. One of the most successful, profitable airlines ever... The airline Westjet fashioned itself after at inception - Southwest.
Unionised Pilots and a history of an extremely collaborative, successful relationship.
SWAPA is in its 39th year of service to the Pilots of Southwest Airlines. Prior to the Union's beginnings in 1978, Pilots worked with the Company to compile work rules for safe, efficient operations. Since that time, SWAPA has successfully negotiated nine labor contracts.
You can't point only to the Pilots and say "reap what you sow", this is up to both parties to move forward on the right foot.
If the corporation keeps throwing beanballs, eventually you have to charge the mound.
Further, look at the model. One of the most successful, profitable airlines ever... The airline Westjet fashioned itself after at inception - Southwest.
Unionised Pilots and a history of an extremely collaborative, successful relationship.
SWAPA is in its 39th year of service to the Pilots of Southwest Airlines. Prior to the Union's beginnings in 1978, Pilots worked with the Company to compile work rules for safe, efficient operations. Since that time, SWAPA has successfully negotiated nine labor contracts.
You can't point only to the Pilots and say "reap what you sow", this is up to both parties to move forward on the right foot.
If the corporation keeps throwing beanballs, eventually you have to charge the mound.
Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:22 am WJ pilots don't have an ALPA contract yet. It would dictate things like scope. With WJPA, they discussed the Encore expansion before proceeding. Currently the pilot group is in limbo. Management is doing whatever they want because they currently can, they clearly have very little regard for their pilots.
What I don't get is why WJ management doesn't want to collaborate with ALPA, it doesn't have to be a hostile relationship. Yet that's exactly the direction management is going.
Easy - establish who is in the driver seat out of the gate. From an industry perspective, WJ is in an ideal position, one that AC could only hope for. Divide up your network to limit risks, maximize seats, control costs and diversify operations. Being able to divide the flying between groups is really attractive in any book. Give the flying to the most competitive group. I can assure you when there is new Q400 work WJ will play Link against Encore to get the best deal they can. Same with swoop and mainline.
This is a mic drop by WJ - Well played indeed
Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
I fixed that for you. Because; had the executive continued to communicate honestly and openly with the pilot group; had the executive continued to operate under the concept that every labour group (including the executive) shared in the good times and the bad; had the executive kept the philosophy of treat the employee well, the employee will treat the customer well and the customer will treat the stock price well.. WJ would not be unionised right now. So, to say the pilot group started this is either wilful blindness or an outright lie. Clive himself has said that a company gets the union it deserves.NewCommercialPilot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:08 am I do think you are in the right arena with your thinking. Since the executive decided they did not want a collaborative approach to employee/management relations (WJPA) and instead wanted a formalized relationship (ALPA), they (executive) will reap what they have sown. Good luck with that.
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!
Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
What doesn’t make sense to me is AC tried to hostile relationship and it hurt the company, they looked at WJ and seem to be greatly improving the employee relationship with success so why WJ seems stubborn to go against that model is baffling.
Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
I'd go as far as saying even the widebody would be at ggn and sr. However that's not going to happen, nor is 87 to swoop.PositiveRate27 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:11 pm I’m sure if AC management had it their way all narrowbody flying would be at Jazz/Sky/GGN and mainline would be only wide Body. The advantage WS management has for the time being is that there is absolutely nothing protecting scope. Swoop could very well be the airline the 787’s go to.
Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
Hey I got a question...
What gives you people the impression the WJ management HAS to ask "pretty please" to the pilot group for any of these corporate decisions? Hmmm? They don't. Plain and simple. You might be used to some kind of iron clad scope in the AC world but that just isn't in place (yet) at WJ. What we do have is very limited language around Widebodies going to WJ mainline only. Nothing about CPA's. There's a lot of work to be done between ALPA and Management regarding the contract and Swoop that wants to start up by next summer. Very murky waters right now. The Swoop flying IS WestJet pilots flying and the real focus..the Saab340 stuff is not.
I've yet to meet a WJ pilot that is losing his mind over the Pasco thing like you guys are. It's just not the reality. Truth is it's a smart corporate move to grow the network and fill more seats. And as a long term WJ pilot I'm very pleased to see they're taking steps to solidify our company's future growth.
What gives you people the impression the WJ management HAS to ask "pretty please" to the pilot group for any of these corporate decisions? Hmmm? They don't. Plain and simple. You might be used to some kind of iron clad scope in the AC world but that just isn't in place (yet) at WJ. What we do have is very limited language around Widebodies going to WJ mainline only. Nothing about CPA's. There's a lot of work to be done between ALPA and Management regarding the contract and Swoop that wants to start up by next summer. Very murky waters right now. The Swoop flying IS WestJet pilots flying and the real focus..the Saab340 stuff is not.
I've yet to meet a WJ pilot that is losing his mind over the Pasco thing like you guys are. It's just not the reality. Truth is it's a smart corporate move to grow the network and fill more seats. And as a long term WJ pilot I'm very pleased to see they're taking steps to solidify our company's future growth.
Re: WestJet introduces WestJet Link
Perhaps you should ask an Encore pilot what they think? I can assure you it's not something they're happy about. Management has always promised that they aim to have 100% flow to mainline. Obviously that has yet to be achieved with our aggressive growth but as things start to settle down here, especially with the hiring delay, many of us were expecting that 100% to become a reality. However by enticing Pasco pilots with preferential interviews (redacted for the time being), the idea of 100% flow has been proven to be a lie. Many of us left good paying jobs because we were told the door was closing to mainline and the only way in would be through Encore. Clearly we've been had.
But yes it's all good news for '37 crews. Don't worry about the Encore folks, slaving away 19 days a month. Meanwhile Pasco pilots (who are better compensated) stand to land that jet job before many of us.
But yes it's all good news for '37 crews. Don't worry about the Encore folks, slaving away 19 days a month. Meanwhile Pasco pilots (who are better compensated) stand to land that jet job before many of us.