altiplano wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:13 pm
I don't think it's a good news story anytime your flying gets farmed out.
That flying belongs to Westjet pilots.
Were they consulted?
Even if they agreed that the turboprop flying could go to Encore, now you've introduced another airline to do 705 flying for you, this isn't a commuter airline ie. 1900s, how long before Pacific Coastal gets Q400s too? or take the regional flying outright?
Westjet, Encore, Swoop, now Pacific Coastal... management making huge reaches over your career without consultation - lots going on there to @#$! your future if you're a mainline Westjet guy...
+1. Well said.
I hope the WJ mainline pilots are taking notice. Imagine what GS could do with the widebody expansion without consultation. Flying is flying. Flying farmed out is bad. Always bad.
I'm interested in what this means for Swoop. People didn't really consider that that flying would be done by another airline. Now it seems much more likely.
telex wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:23 pm
Suncor pilots owned some flying at one time. Until they didn't.
Now wj owns it.
Maybe farming out flying is only bad when you work for the company farming it out?
Outright shutting down a corporate flight department is different from outsourcing flying from a successful airline where the precedent has clearly been set that Pilots have a say on the flying.
ie. Encore required pilot approval, WB flying terms had to be put to a vote
Sure there is some benefit for a few guys, but taking a wide view, outsourcing flying is bad for all pilots.
It divides us and lessens us.
telex wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:23 pm
Suncor pilots owned some flying at one time. Until they didn't.
Now wj owns it.
Maybe farming out flying is only bad when you work for the company farming it out?
Outright shutting down a corporate flight department is different from outsourcing flying from a successful airline where the precedent has clearly been set that Pilots have a say on the flying.
ie. Encore required pilot approval, WB flying terms had to be put to a vote
Sure there is some benefit for a few guys, but taking a wide view, outsourcing flying is bad for all pilots.
It divides us and lessens us.
Did wj pilots once vote to protect the widebody flying before widebodies were on the property?
Did they never think to protect the 737 flying? You know, the flying they "owned"?
Now you have Q400's AND soon to be 737's flying the flying that the pilots "own".
You own the flying as much as you own the aircraft lease payments, the fuel bills, the landing fees, the payroll, and whatever else you don't pay for.
It says WESTJET on the side of the airplane. Not altiplano. You do not own any flying.
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altiplano wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:13 pm
I don't think it's a good news story anytime your flying gets farmed out.
That flying belongs to Westjet pilots.
Were they consulted?
Even if they agreed that the turboprop flying could go to Encore, now you've introduced another airline to do 705 flying for you, this isn't a commuter airline ie. 1900s, how long before Pacific Coastal gets Q400s too? or take the regional flying outright?
Westjet, Encore, Swoop, now Pacific Coastal... management making huge reaches over your career without consultation - lots going on there to @#$! your future if you're a mainline Westjet guy...
Clearly, I didn't say that I owned anything and you haven't offered much... I guess we will have to disagree to a right for labour to own their work.
I do not know what is in the current Pilot contract at Westjet, but I do know that there is a precedent of seeking agreement with Pilots on changes in scope of work and new flying.
It seems that practise has changed since the pilots certified.
I guess we'll see what they negotiate on how that will fit in. I have no doubt limits will be established and the new CPA somehow used to pay for something/a gain in the next T/A.
Talking as a customer in a small market (Kootenays) there is excitement about this. We now should be able to book on PASCO and hook directly to the Westjet network. Currently if you fly PASCO you are on your own for your connections if your flight get cancelled (40%) of the time in winter. This fact makes Air Canada to defacto only option in winter and prices appear to reflect that. It should also open up more options as currently the only choice is Vancouver and now we might be able to go direct(ish) to Calgary.
I do not know about the politics of who owns what flying, but from a customer point of view, the initial reaction is positive.
Union goonery. FFS, flying doesn't "belong" to anyone, especially not pilots. Pilots do the flying that their employer provides for them. If they don't like that, they are free to move on to whatever company provides flying that suits them.
Best thing you can do as a pilot is do what you can to ensure the customer views your employer as the best option to spend their money on/with.
The same morons who think routes "belong" to employee groups are the same twits who think that their pilot base owns certain flying, vice another base. Management controls the assets and corporate decisions and does so on behalf of the shareholders and board of directors. If you want to play business person and make business decisions that affect the health of the corporation, perhaps flying an airplane isn't your preferred job.
NewCommercialPilot wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:43 am
The same morons who think routes "belong" to employee groups are the same twits who think that their pilot base owns certain flying, vice another base. Management controls the assets and corporate decisions and does so on behalf of the shareholders and board of directors. If you want to play business person and make business decisions that affect the health of the corporation, perhaps flying an airplane isn't your preferred job.
NCP, even by your own neo-conservative logic, you have to understand this: In the free market, Labour is free to attempt to protect itself through organization, just as Management is free to try and lower costs to the utmost extent possible. Scope has been around in CBAs for decades, for good reason, because it is a way for pilots to protect their wages and working conditions. It is one of the few protections we have managed in an industry that favours the management side in just about every way. When this language gets eroded, you can't just "go somewhere better" because somewhere better doesn't exist. This damages wages across the industry, not just at WJ.
But I imagine I am talking to myself here. No point in reasoning with trolls.
NewCommercialPilot wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:36 am
Union goonery. FFS, flying doesn't "belong" to anyone, especially not pilots. Pilots do the flying that their employer provides for them. If they don't like that, they are free to move on to whatever company provides flying that suits them.
Yeah, not quite that simple. All those WJ 737 captains that are worried about being Swoop'ed are applying for direct entry captain at Air Canada's YYC base (sarcasm).
You've invested many years working for a company, built up a relationship, seniority, pension, upgraded, moved up the pay scale, etc. Now they're threatening your WAWCON. Change employers like you suggest, and you are starting over all over again. I bet there's few that regret applying to WJ and wouldn't have if they knew this mess was coming. Pilots sure don't own the flying, but they are directly affected by the changes to the flying job. You'd be dumb not to worry when that job is being farmed out.
NewCommercialPilot wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:36 am
Union goonery. FFS, flying doesn't "belong" to anyone, especially not pilots. Pilots do the flying that their employer provides for them. If they don't like that, they are free to move on to whatever company provides flying that suits them.
Yeah, not quite that simple. All those WJ 737 captains that are worried about being Swoop'ed are applying for direct entry captain at Air Canada's YYC base (sarcasm).
You've invested many years working for a company, built up a relationship, seniority, pension, upgraded, moved up the pay scale, etc. Now they're threatening your WAWCON. Change employers like you suggest, and you are starting over all over again. I bet there's few that regret applying to WJ and wouldn't have if they knew this mess was coming. Pilots sure don't own the flying, but they are directly affected by the changes to the flying job. You'd be dumb not to worry when that job is being farmed out.
This is a simple mic drop by WJ on ALPA. The tail thought it could wag the dog - the dog bit back and established dominance. Come to work do your job, be safe
NewCommercialPilot wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:36 am
Union goonery. FFS, flying doesn't "belong" to anyone, especially not pilots. Pilots do the flying that their employer provides for them. If they don't like that, they are free to move on to whatever company provides flying that suits them.
Yeah, not quite that simple. All those WJ 737 captains that are worried about being Swoop'ed are applying for direct entry captain at Air Canada's YYC base (sarcasm).
You've invested many years working for a company, built up a relationship, seniority, pension, upgraded, moved up the pay scale, etc. Now they're threatening your WAWCON. Change employers like you suggest, and you are starting over all over again. I bet there's few that regret applying to WJ and wouldn't have if they knew this mess was coming. Pilots sure don't own the flying, but they are directly affected by the changes to the flying job. You'd be dumb not to worry when that job is being farmed out.
This is a simple mic drop by WJ on ALPA. The tail thought it could wag the dog - the dog bit back and established dominance. Come to work do your job, be safe
That simple, right? You get what you get, and don’t ask questions.
Btw, the dog is biting its own tail in your analogy.
