10 year take home pay

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copter105
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10 year take home pay

Post by copter105 »

I see the rates posted and I know there are many variables but assuming you are working an average schedule, what is the amount a 10 year Captain or a 10 year FO would get into your bank account? Per cheque, per month, per year or whatever info you got. I'm just trying to see what the differences are between a few different countries QOL.
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BE20 Driver
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by BE20 Driver »

If you have the rates, you can figure it out. WS guarantees 77.5 hours a month.
Getting the in your bank account number is a little trickier. If you participate in the ESPP program, reduce your monthly take home by 20% as this goes into stock and must vest for one year. Now, the in your bank number varies by province as you account for income tax. When calculating your tax bracket, you'll have to increase your pay by 20% which is the company matched amount for the ESPP.
In Alberta, a 10 year captain is in the 47% income tax (combined federal and provincial) bracket. In Ontario, it's 51.7%.
Oh, I guess you'll have to further reduce take home pay by 1.9% for union dues too.

Since you're comparing several countries, here are some of the most common countries for pilots to work in and their income tax rates:

America 28% income tax,
China (any company in China pays tax for you),
Japan 40% (some contracts pay Japanese tax for you)
Hong Kong 17%
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Victory
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by Victory »

Man I can't wait to get out of this country. It's bad enough that taxes are that high but before tax wages are much lower too.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by AuxBatOn »

I make well north of 100K and my marginal tax bracket was less than 40% in Quebec. Yes, your top dollar bracket may be 51%, but when combined with your lower dollars brackets, it likely comes down to between 25 and 35% (marginal tax rate), depending on how much you make and where you live...
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by BE20 Driver »

Yes, it depends on whether you are talking in average tax rate or marginal tax rate.

However, assuming you have no other deductions, there is a calculator online that you can find a pretty close estimate:

https://simpletax.ca/calculator

Here's what I get:

1. hourly rate x 77.5 x 12= base pay.
2. base pay x 1.2 = total compensation.
3. plug this into the employment income column.
4. choose whether you contribute to RRSP or not.

For Alberta, an average tax rate of 34.59% and a marginal tax rate of 47%.

Don't forget that when you're talking actual dollars in the bank, the after tax income shown on the calculator is reduced by 20% since you're contributing this into the stock purchase.

There are 26 pay periods in a year.

There are lots of other taxable benefits on your pay cheque that lower that number a little more. Medical/dental, short and long term disability being the biggest one I can think of.

We also get profit share - as long as the company is profitable. Same with OPA as long as we meet targets.
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Fresh Prince of King Air
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by Fresh Prince of King Air »

Captain:

Hourly Wage $193.76
Income $216236.16
Ontario Income Tax $21792.46
Canadian Income Tax $49953.72
Total Income Tax $71746.17
Average Tax Rate 33%
Marginal Tax Rate 51.97%
Total ESPP $76728.96
STD/LTD $7768.81
EI/CPP $3410.00
Take Home Pay $2176.24

FO:

Hourly Wage $112.09
Income $125092.44
Ontario Income Tax $10587.53
Canadian Income Tax $23331.46
Total Income Tax $33918.99
Average Tax Rate 27%
Marginal Tax Rate 43.41%
Total ESPP $44387.64
STD/LTD $4494.25
EI/CPP $3410.00
Take Home Pay $1495.44

26 pay periods a year. Excluding at risk pay and meals.
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sstaurus
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by sstaurus »

Wow. That ESP really shrinks that take-home!
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TFTMB heavy
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by TFTMB heavy »

BE20 Driver wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:13 pm
Oh, I guess you'll have to further reduce take home pay by 1.9% for union dues too.

Union dues are non taxable income, FYI.
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Mostly Harmless
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by Mostly Harmless »

The ESPP does shrink the take home pay but you can:

Leave it invested in the company and collect the dividend and hopefully capital gains:
Take it out after 1 year and invest it in different stocks, bonds, real estate. Any and all of which earn income (dividends and capital gains, interest, rent and capital gains/appreciation) and all of which is under your own control at all times. So, if the company does something really stupid and has to declare bankruptcy, you still have all your money less the one year's worth of stock you might lose:
Pay off your mortgage and live debt free:
Anything you actually want to do with your money because... it's your money. I make much, much higher return on my investments than any pension fund out there that exists.

Everyone in the company has a different strategy for managing their money but it can be very rewarding. You just have to be able to think and act long term. Personally, I love having control of my own destiny and it doesn't have to be that difficult to do.
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DropTanks
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by DropTanks »

Mostly Harmless wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:02 am The ESPP does shrink the take home pay but you can:

Leave it invested in the company and collect the dividend and hopefully capital gains:
Take it out after 1 year and invest it in different stocks, bonds, real estate. Any and all of which earn income (dividends and capital gains, interest, rent and capital gains/appreciation) and all of which is under your own control at all times. So, if the company does something really stupid and has to declare bankruptcy, you still have all your money less the one year's worth of stock you might lose:
Pay off your mortgage and live debt free:
Anything you actually want to do with your money because... it's your money. I make much, much higher return on my investments than any pension fund out there that exists.

Everyone in the company has a different strategy for managing their money but it can be very rewarding. You just have to be able to think and act long term. Personally, I love having control of my own destiny and it doesn't have to be that difficult to do.
Exactly right. One might say that ESP "shrinks your take home pay" but you can't forget that at the end of the year in the above figures the Cpt has $77k and the F/O has $44k to play with. A lot of people seam to forget that little tidbit and act like they're destitute with a meager take home. I like to include my ESP in my "take home". It all comes out the same in the end, just a matter of how you look at things. If you want to up your take home you should definitely reduce your taxes at source if contributing to an RRSP. It works like magic.
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sepia
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by sepia »

This isn't a post to brag, or try and turn this into a who's dick is the biggest. It's solely to give some perspective.

A year 10 Air Canada 320 First Officer takes home well over twice what the WJ CAPTAIN does. The AC 320 FO could also use that additional money to buy any kind of retirement hedge. The AC 320FO also has a DB pension now, but in future the 10yr FO will have a multi employer pension, which is totally removed from the fate of AC.

I wish you guys the absolute best of luck with your negotiations. There's truly nothing that would make me happier than WJ pilots getting an industry leading contract. Southwest has industry leading wages and working conditions down South, so there's absolutely no reason why you couldn't do the same.
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by BE20 Driver »

The OP was asking about take home pay so that's what I focused on. I recognize that there are a million ways to manage one's money. I don't consider ESPP as part of my take home pay. It is a part of my compensation package though. You could withdraw it the following year but then you have nothing to show for retirement. I doubt that any AC pilot would consider their pension to be a part of their take home pay.
Fresh Prince of King Air wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:34 pm Captain:

Hourly Wage $193.76
Take Home Pay $2176.24

FO:

Hourly Wage $112.09
Take Home Pay $1495.44

26 pay periods a year. Excluding at risk pay and meals.
All of that extra work and responsibility for an extra $700 in your jeans. This is what is wrong with Canadian wages and taxes in general.

A mortgage and property tax in one of Canada's biggest 3-4 cities will easily cost you close to $1700/month. That would leave a 10 year captain with only $400 per pay to cover a car, groceries and entertainment, school fees etc.
I know we're not dissecting anyone's personal finances here but the take home pay of a 10 year captain is much lower than I thought it would be. I guess Trudeau's nannies are more expensive than I could have imagined.
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TheStig
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by TheStig »

Agreed, all the best in negotiations.

It's worth noting the difference between years of service and years in status. At AC (and now rouge) a Captain with 10 years at the airline is paid at the 10th year Captain rate, at WJ Captains are paid based on how long they've been a Captain at WJ. With upgrades in YYZ at the 7-8 year mark it will take 17-18 years to attain 10th year Captain pay. It isn't even worth comparing hourly rates or projected upgrade times with that massive discrepancy.

I understand many Westjetters like the existing pay system, it has and continues to work for them, they like having control over their retirement investments and utilize their ESP effectively. It's also easy to forget that profit sharing is a huge component of total remuneration at Westjet. Having so much 'skin in the game' clearly has help build a strong corporate culture over the past 20 years. It will be interesting to see if the majority of the pilot group wants to shift away from this pay model.

At AC profit sharing does exist, for the past few years it has equated to roughly 8% of a pilots annual salary, and there is a stock option program as well, up to 10% of wages matched at 33% annually, so roughly another 3% on top of salary. Both these are obviously much less lucrative than WJ's offerings but on the flip side, hourly wages are higher and all pilot's have pension plans.

The big sea change has been career progression. 10-15 years ago a position at WJ offered quick upgrades while flying for a rapidly growing profitable airline, while lately all the talk amongst pilots seems to be about uncertainty, base growth/shinkage, Swoop, ALPA, contract negotiations, Encore, Pasco to name a few. Today at AC, upgrades on the Airbus are being awarded to pilots hired in 2017, ground school sizes have to increased to 40, and new routes and expansion continue to be announced.
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Mostly Harmless
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by Mostly Harmless »

TheStig; I think that is well stated.

I will never say no to more money. I would like to see wages come up for all pilots.

However, the moral of the story is, if you want a pension, you should go to work for a place that has a pension. You don't go to work for the place that doesn't have a pension and then complain about it. You only get one life, you should enjoy it.
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Bede
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by Bede »

AuxBatOn wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:38 pm I make well north of 100K and my marginal tax bracket was less than 40% in Quebec. Yes, your top dollar bracket may be 51%, but when combined with your lower dollars brackets, it likely comes down to between 25 and 35% (marginal tax rate), depending on how much you make and where you live...
I think that you're confusing marginal tax rate with average tax rate.
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Blue42
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by Blue42 »

BE20 Driver wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:57 am The OP was asking about take home pay so that's what I focused on. I recognize that there are a million ways to manage one's money. I don't consider ESPP as part of my take home pay. It is a part of my compensation package though. You could withdraw it the following year but then you have nothing to show for retirement. I doubt that any AC pilot would consider their pension to be a part of their take home pay.

[quote="Fresh Prince of King Air" post_id=<a href="tel:1021921">1021921</a> time=<a href="tel:1513146859">1513146859</a> user_id=4455]
Captain:

Hourly Wage $193.76
Take Home Pay $2176.24

FO:

Hourly Wage $112.09
Take Home Pay $1495.44

26 pay periods a year. Excluding at risk pay and meals.
All of that extra work and responsibility for an extra $700 in your jeans. This is what is wrong with Canadian wages and taxes in general.

A mortgage and property tax in one of Canada's biggest 3-4 cities will easily cost you close to $1700/month. That would leave a 10 year captain with only $400 per pay to cover a car, groceries and entertainment, school fees etc.
I know we're not dissecting anyone's personal finances here but the take home pay of a 10 year captain is much lower than I thought it would be. I guess Trudeau's nannies are more expensive than I could have imagined.
[/quote]

$1495 take home for an FO?? I'm at year 3 pay and have never been anywhere near that low even with min pay and no per diems. Just saying.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by AuxBatOn »

26 pay cycles a year. That's $3240 a month...
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copter105
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by copter105 »

Is there opportunity to work more than the minimum?
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by confusedalot »

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... an/westjet

After the arithmetic, should a 10 year Captain be getting at least 10000 per month after tax and deductions? Per diems and profit share not included.
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DropTanks
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Re: 10 year take home pay

Post by DropTanks »

You would think so and I'd bet that if you include the ESP then they are. However since the guy has to sacrifice 20% ESP in order to get the match portion, and it can't be touched for a year vesting period AND the poor guy pays income taxes on it now, he's only taking home much less today in order to get more later. confused yet? 😉
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