Swoop Blacklist

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altiplano
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by altiplano »

JoeyBarton wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:13 pm This reminds me of that moment in 2013 when everybody at AC complained at giving up the 15 E175 to sky regional
Good point... Remember "those moments"

Sky Regional? Just 5 Dashes on the Island...
In the end they gutted our jobs and pay. Not just took the 175s, but the WB FO pay too that we gave to improve EMJ CA pay - vanished - gone.

Like Rouge... Remember "that moment"?
Only 30 319s and 20 767s? So soon it became 25 of any NBJ and 25 767s... but "that's it"... jeesh... now unlimited NBJs, more 321s coming, threatening to take more, all of our regional upgauging at B scale... all the best productive flying and layovers, not to mention all of our bargaining capital and many concessions trying to "fix".,..

Remember "those moments" - because they bring down our careers.

No more moments please.
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tailgunner
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by tailgunner »

When SKY started there were 55 CA jobs in YVR on the EMB. 55 CA jobs in YUL, and some 245 CA jobs in YYZ. Now there are 125 CA jobs in YYZ. So, those SKY CA's that bid there time over there, only to now get on to mainline have taken at least a 50% wage cut for the last 5 years or so. They were happy with 84000 per year, all the while they should have/could have been earning upwards of 150000....yup , worked brilliantly.
Don't do this with Swoop
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Art Garfunkel
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Art Garfunkel »

I get the impression that there is no ownership for the creation of Sky Regional by ACPA. Wasn't there a clause in the old contract that limited regional flying to just one carrier? (JAZZ). I know, I know, that clause was taken out by FOS arbitration. But was it? Not pointing fingers here, but I hate it when we blame other pilots for taking jobs that are out there on the free market for less than other jobs. We let it happen!

Time to stop looking in the past and look to control the future. I hate Swoop, Sky, GGN and Rouge for everything that it stands for……Lowering the Pilot Profession. Time to unite and realize that we do need one controlling body to control pilot wages and working conditions. We have seen what happens when corporations are left to it.

Time for ACPA to come back!
Time for Sky to organize!
Time for WJ pilots to unite and say no to lowering wages!
Time for Pilots in Canada to stand together like brothers/sisters go forward with wages and not backwards!
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Fanblade
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Fanblade »

Art Garfunkel wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:50 pm I get the impression that there is no ownership for the creation of Sky Regional by ACPA. Wasn't there a clause in the old contract that limited regional flying to just one carrier? (JAZZ). I know, I know, that clause was taken out by FOS arbitration. But was it? Not pointing fingers here......
As an AC pilot I will point for you. Yes FOS imposed the change that ended Jazz's exclusive regional carrier status. However it is equally true that FOS simply imposed what ACPA had freely negotiated with the company in the first place.

The whole thing ended in arbitration after being widely rejected by the membership.

An ACPA epic fail.
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George Taylor
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by George Taylor »

The angry grandpa and the orange demon had so many other ways to stay competitive and battle the ULCC's.
Swoop is nothing more then a giant FU to the pilots.
Here's another example of the great management at Air Canada:

http://www.travelweek.ca/news/air-canad ... est-price/
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AvifiskAlly
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by AvifiskAlly »

Art Garfunkel wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:50 pm I get the impression that there is no ownership for the creation of Sky Regional by ACPA. Wasn't there a clause in the old contract that limited regional flying to just one carrier? (JAZZ). I know, I know, that clause was taken out by FOS arbitration. But was it? Not pointing fingers here, but I hate it when we blame other pilots for taking jobs that are out there on the free market for less than other jobs. We let it happen!

Time to stop looking in the past and look to control the future. I hate Swoop, Sky, GGN and Rouge for everything that it stands for……Lowering the Pilot Profession. Time to unite and realize that we do need one controlling body to control pilot wages and working conditions. We have seen what happens when corporations are left to it.

Time for ACPA to come back!
Time for Sky to organize!
Time for WJ pilots to unite and say no to lowering wages!
Time for Pilots in Canada to stand together like brothers/sisters go forward with wages and not backwards!

Get a life. It is a competitive business. Hate, Swoop, Sky, GGN all you want but the reality is the work these guys do would have been lost in any case. Sky and Georgian to American regionals and Swoop and other ULCC’s to more Canadians driving to the US for flights or simply not flying. The ULCC’s stimulate new markets and that results in industry growth.

BTW AC was not the pilot group that started Sky it was Jazz by being the most expensive regional in the world and a threat to go on strike which was basically greed. Sky started without ACPA authorization or agreement but to be honest - it was the right thing to do. Jazz was becoming a monster that we could no longer feed. Greed based doom
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mbav8r
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by mbav8r »

AvifiskAlly wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:52 pm [quote="Art Garfunkel" post_id=<a href="tel:1030612">1030612</a> time=<a href="tel:1519242640">1519242640</a> user_id=45935]
I get the impression that there is no ownership for the creation of Sky Regional by ACPA. Wasn't there a clause in the old contract that limited regional flying to just one carrier? (JAZZ). I know, I know, that clause was taken out by FOS arbitration. But was it? Not pointing fingers here, but I hate it when we blame other pilots for taking jobs that are out there on the free market for less than other jobs. We let it happen!

Time to stop looking in the past and look to control the future. I hate Swoop, Sky, GGN and Rouge for everything that it stands for……Lowering the Pilot Profession. Time to unite and realize that we do need one controlling body to control pilot wages and working conditions. We have seen what happens when corporations are left to it.

Time for ACPA to come back!
Time for Sky to organize!
Time for WJ pilots to unite and say no to lowering wages!
Time for Pilots in Canada to stand together like brothers/sisters go forward with wages and not backwards!

Get a life. It is a competitive business. Hate, Swoop, Sky, GGN all you want but the reality is the work these guys do would have been lost in any case. Sky and Georgian to American regionals and Swoop and other ULCC’s to more Canadians driving to the US for flights or simply not flying. The ULCC’s stimulate new markets and that results in industry growth.

BTW AC was not the pilot group that started Sky it was Jazz by being the most expensive regional in the world and a threat to go on strike which was basically greed. Sky started without ACPA authorization or agreement but to be honest - it was the right thing to do. Jazz was becoming a monster that we could no longer feed. Greed based doom
[/quote]
Wow, just wow! This reeks of the hate you’re criticizing.
You know, first of all a memory refresher, ACPA gave AC permission to explore the possibility of creating SR. AC argued to the arbitrator that they spent 5 million on that exploration and would be money wasted if not allowed to proceed.
If Jazz was a monster you could no longer feed, which btw is a sound bite from management, ACPA Pilots would’ve gained the work back. SR put pressure on your wages as well and for @#$! sakes, if you’re a pilot you should apply to a management position because your certainly on their side of the fence.
So, if you ask for a raise or refuse to allow a degradation of your workings conditions, it’s greed. Where do you work, you have my FULL support and I’d even bring coffee and donuts to your picket line should it ever come to that, but based on your post I get the impression you’d cross the line on struck work and flip us the bird if we were in that position.
Thanks for all you do for the industry!
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AvifiskAlly
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by AvifiskAlly »

mbav8r wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:33 pm
AvifiskAlly wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:52 pm [quote="Art Garfunkel" post_id=<a href="tel:1030612">1030612</a> time=<a href="tel:1519242640">1519242640</a> user_id=45935]
I get the impression that there is no ownership for the creation of Sky Regional by ACPA. Wasn't there a clause in the old contract that limited regional flying to just one carrier? (JAZZ). I know, I know, that clause was taken out by FOS arbitration. But was it? Not pointing fingers here, but I hate it when we blame other pilots for taking jobs that are out there on the free market for less than other jobs. We let it happen!

Time to stop looking in the past and look to control the future. I hate Swoop, Sky, GGN and Rouge for everything that it stands for……Lowering the Pilot Profession. Time to unite and realize that we do need one controlling body to control pilot wages and working conditions. We have seen what happens when corporations are left to it.

Time for ACPA to come back!
Time for Sky to organize!
Time for WJ pilots to unite and say no to lowering wages!
Time for Pilots in Canada to stand together like brothers/sisters go forward with wages and not backwards!

Get a life. It is a competitive business. Hate, Swoop, Sky, GGN all you want but the reality is the work these guys do would have been lost in any case. Sky and Georgian to American regionals and Swoop and other ULCC’s to more Canadians driving to the US for flights or simply not flying. The ULCC’s stimulate new markets and that results in industry growth.

BTW AC was not the pilot group that started Sky it was Jazz by being the most expensive regional in the world and a threat to go on strike which was basically greed. Sky started without ACPA authorization or agreement but to be honest - it was the right thing to do. Jazz was becoming a monster that we could no longer feed. Greed based doom
Wow, just wow! This reeks of the hate you’re criticizing.
You know, first of all a memory refresher, ACPA gave AC permission to explore the possibility of creating SR. AC argued to the arbitrator that they spent 5 million on that exploration and would be money wasted if not allowed to proceed.
If Jazz was a monster you could no longer feed, which btw is a sound bite from management, ACPA Pilots would’ve gained the work back. SR put pressure on your wages as well and for @#$! sakes, if you’re a pilot you should apply to a management position because your certainly on their side of the fence.
So, if you ask for a raise or refuse to allow a degradation of your workings conditions, it’s greed. Where do you work, you have my FULL support and I’d even bring coffee and donuts to your picket line should it ever come to that, but based on your post I get the impression you’d cross the line on struck work and flip us the bird if we were in that position.
Thanks for all you do for the industry!
[/quote]


One thing for sure is that if more pilots thought like you do there would be a lot less of us working. You essentially say - lets protect the top end and screw the rest of you guys. Why don’t we just give all our jobs to US regionals and international ULCC’s??? Wow - just wow is right you are a serious dreamer if you think Sky jobs were coming back in-house you are smoking the good stuff Jazz is too expensive and back in the day Rouge did not have the ability to upscale Express work so the US regionals would have been in here eating your lunch.
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mbav8r
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by mbav8r »

Part of me thinks I should just ignore you, I read through your 32 posts to get an idea of who you are, one things for sure, you’re an antagonist.
If ACPA didn’t give their blessing to AC to explore, it’s very likely the scope that had Jazz as the exclusive provider would not have changed, that change was driven by people like you who ate the shit sandwich they’ve been fed by management.
Tell me if Canadian Airlines enjoy a near 50% wage advantage and regional airlines in the US are unable to fulfill their obligations as it is, how exactly would they be doing more?
Thank god there aren’t many pilots like you, we would all be flying at GGN wages if it were up to you, all in the name of competition. Put your money where your mouth is, apply to swoop and show us the way to a better career! Wouldn’t want those American ULCCs coming here and stealing our jobs.
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Art Garfunkel
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Art Garfunkel »

US Regionals?….Good luck. They can't even find pilots to fly point to point in the US. Plus, I think they are a lot more expensive than say 5 years ago.

International ULCC's?….Isn't Norwegian just about bankrupt?

Jazz too expensive?….probably. They have a VP for this and a VP for that and then 6 more VP's that who knows what they do. Plus, who made them expensive? Oh, that's right. The CPA deal that made the sale of Jazz possible raising all kinds of capital for the purchases of 777's and EMB's circa 2004-2007. (I know it wasn't just the sale of Jazz that raised capital)

Jazz PILOTS too expensive?…..absolutely not. What's wrong with having a regional pilot making a good wage. They are, after all, pilots that complete flights safely and professionally just like any other pilot. In one day, they move close to the same amount of passengers as a mainline pilot. Those passengers are high yielding passengers too. The US market place is changing rapidly with more mainline flights taking over regional flights due to the lack of 1500 hr ATPL's. US regionals are fighting over those pilots and thus have increased their wages significantly.

So yes, let's all work for less so everyone can become a pilot. Wait. Haven't we gone down this road before and low and behold the young people are just not getting into this profession because the pay is low. Now what? I will let you know as soon as I get a life.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by C.W.E. »

So yes, let's all work for less so everyone can become a pilot. Wait. Haven't we gone down this road before and low and behold the young people are just not getting into this profession because the pay is low.
The pay is significantly higher than the Canadian average wage.
Now what? I will let you know as soon as I get a life.
Are you saying you have no life working as a pilot?

And you are working for low wages?
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FL410AV8R
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by FL410AV8R »

C.W.E. wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:08 pm
The pay is significantly higher than the Canadian average wage.
As it should be. Do you consider yourself an average Canadian or an average pilot? What a dumb statement.

The majority of Canadians don't assume hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars of liability every time they push the TOGA buttons.
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AvifiskAlly
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by AvifiskAlly »

FL410AV8R wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:14 pm
C.W.E. wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:08 pm
The pay is significantly higher than the Canadian average wage.
As it should be. Do you consider yourself an average Canadian or an average pilot? What a dumb statement.

The majority of Canadians don't assume hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars of liability every time they push the TOGA buttons.
Lots of jobs carry massive responsibility and liability, pilots are probably top half but also doing a job that requires 12 - 18 months of education past high school soooooooooo. Great profession, deserve to be paid well, its a job of constant learning and testing so I am not putting it down, just saying the old “liability/responsibility” argument is ridiculous
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saltypilot
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by saltypilot »

AvifiskAlly wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:12 am
FL410AV8R wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:14 pm
C.W.E. wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:08 pm
The pay is significantly higher than the Canadian average wage.
As it should be. Do you consider yourself an average Canadian or an average pilot? What a dumb statement.

The majority of Canadians don't assume hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars of liability every time they push the TOGA buttons.
Lots of jobs carry massive responsibility and liability, pilots are probably top half but also doing a job that requires 12 - 18 months of education past high school soooooooooo. Great profession, deserve to be paid well, its a job of constant learning and testing so I am not putting it down, just saying the old “liability/responsibility” argument is ridiculous
Oh my, spoken like a true manager...The CEO would be proud.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by C.W.E. »

As it should be. Do you consider yourself an average Canadian or an average pilot? What a dumb statement.
I never really thought much about it but now that you ask, yes I probably fit into the average Canadian description and my flying abilities might be above average if I base it on what I was paid to fly.

So I really don't understand why you called my statement dumb?
The majority of Canadians don't assume hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars of liability every time they push the TOGA buttons.
And the majority of pilots do not fly as a Captain on a heavy jet, pay is based on the revenue an airplane makes the more passengers the more revenue thus more money to pay the crew.

And speaking of how difficult they are to fly you don't find TOGA buttons in most airplanes.
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truedude
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by truedude »

C.W.E. wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:08 am And the majority of pilots do not fly as a Captain on a heavy jet, pay is based on the revenue an airplane makes the more passengers the more revenue thus more money to pay the crew.

And speaking of how difficult they are to fly you don't find TOGA buttons in most airplanes.
This is a ridiculously stupid statement. Pilots are payed (or should be) based on the liability they assume. Revenue does not come into play. I pilot of a 777 assumes more liability than that of a Q400 ( which I fly). If the pilots on a 777 Fu#@ up, it could mean the write off of a 250 million dollar aircraft and the loss of 400 souls. My mistake, where as costly, clearly does not have the same impact.

You also said earlier that there were a lot of other professions where the liability undertaken is high... Please name one where a single mistake made in a split second can lead to the loss of 400 people and the write off of 250 million in equipment.

I am late to the party here, so if you are a pilot, then it is sad to see how you view your profession. If you are a manager or some other entity sitting on the sideline, then go crawl back under your rock until you have some idea of what you are talking about.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by C.W.E. »

You also said earlier that there were a lot of other professions where the liability undertaken is high... Please name one where a single mistake made in a split second can lead to the loss of 400 people and the write off of 250 million in equipment.

Well a large cruise ship comes to mind, they carry thousands of people.
I am late to the party here, so if you are a pilot, then it is sad to see how you view your profession. If you are a manager or some other entity sitting on the sideline, then go crawl back under your rock until you have some idea of what you are talking about.
Actually I am a pilot and worked in the industry for over fifty years and yes I was in management for years.

And I also owned several of my own companies both fixed wing and rotary wing.

And I worked in government in a regulatory position.

You should work on your social interaction skills because I have as much right as you do to express my opinion without being told to crawl under a rock.

It is attitudes like yours that lead me to believe that being a pilot does not automatically mean you are something special.

I am finished with this now.
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Transonic
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Transonic »

C.W.E. wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:41 am
Well a large cruise ship comes to mind, they carry thousands of people.

Excellent example. It takes 20+ years to attain the experience required to Command a large ship and they make as much as an airline captain.

AvifiskAlly would argue the salary is too high as they only require 24 months of classroom studies at an inferior college no less. Transiting the ocean with 5000 souls or cargo measured in the 100's of millions, AvifiskAlly demands carpenter wages.
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Last edited by Transonic on Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Transonic
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by Transonic »

duplicate
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FL410AV8R
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

Post by FL410AV8R »

I truly fail to understand these individuals who claim to be a pilot in one breath and in the next denigrate our profession and advocate for reduced working conditions because after all it is just market forces at play.

I would love to hear the justification for the outrageous CEO and executive salaries being paid to individuals with zero direct liability to anyone but themselves.

Any pilot who advocates for reduced pay or working conditions for those following them should either lead by example and take one of those reduced rate positions themselves or STFU and stop eating our young. For the first time in decades pilots may be in a position of strength when it comes to WAWCON as this global pilot shortage continues to manifest itself. Let’s not waste this opportunity. They told me there was a pilot shortage when I was in flight school 30+ years ago and finally it has arrived.

Remember, you don’t get paid what you are worth, you get paid what you negotiate.
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