Swoop Blacklist

[Fanblade]

You have misconstrued the point. The Swoop flying contractually belongs to the WJ pilot group. End of story. Until it is negotiated otherwise, or there is a strike lockout, it remains fact.

Seeking to take what belongs to someone else is the moral question.

If you apply to Swoop, and are willing to take the job, you are volunteering to help WJ management pressure it’s pilots into pay and working condition cuts.

Then you have the audacity to complain about wages???????????????

Flying belongs to no group. WJ pilots have earned Nothing yet. Don’t even have a contract yet. Give the rest of us some credit for not getting involved in your own self righteous crusade to line your own pocket.

Nailed it!

Actually the comment is quite naive and displays AvifiskAlly doesn’t understand the certification process.

Airtids post is correct.

The WJ contract is currently frozen. It can only be altered through arbitration/negotiation or Strike/lockout. Since this is a first contract the only options are negotiation/arbitration.

Negotiation is preferred as the jurisprudence for arbitration on a first contract provides very little likelihood for change. (with the exception of introducing a grievance process)

If either side wants changes they will have to negotiate. It s clear WJ management wants wages and working condition changes at swoop. Those changes must be negotiated or the current contract applies.

The WJ pilots themselves want changes. Those also need to be negotiated.

There are really only two likely out comes.

1) They sit down and negotiate an agreement that both can work with.

Or

2) Go to arbitration and live with the status quo for two more years.

If WJ management decides to go Rogue and unilaterally impose Swoop wages and working conditions? ( I really doubt it) Buyer beware. There would be a high probability it would be struck down through arbitration, leaving those who took the jobs in an uncertain position.

[AvifiskAlly]

Flying belongs to no group. WJ pilots have earned Nothing yet. Don’t even have a contract yet. Give the rest of us some credit for not getting involved in your own self righteous crusade to line your own pocket.

Nailed it!

Actually the comment is quite naive and displays AvifiskAlly doesn’t understand the certification process.

Airtids post is correct.

The WJ contract is currently frozen. It can only be altered through arbitration/negotiation or Strike/lockout. Since this is a first contract the only options are negotiation/arbitration.

Negotiation is preferred as the jurisprudence for arbitration on a first contract provides very little likelihood for change. (with the exception of introducing a grievance process)

If either side wants changes they will have to negotiate. It s clear WJ management wants wages and working condition changes at swoop. Those changes must be negotiated or the current contract applies.

The WJ pilots themselves want changes. Those also need to be negotiated.

There are really only two likely out comes.

1) They sit down and negotiate an agreement that both can work with.

Or

2) Go to arbitration and live with the status quo for two more years.

If WJ management decides to go Rogue and unilaterally impose Swoop wages and working conditions? ( I really doubt it) Buyer beware. There would be a high probability it would be struck down through arbitration, leaving those who took the jobs in an uncertain position.

Well that is good info. Thanks, I stand corrected on the old WJ agreement being binding through negotiations - odd it is called a first contract if it is based on the old agreement. In any case my bigger point was that this is not an industry issue its a WJ and WJ pilot issue. Nothing big or new here, keep it internal and get a contract. Or dont nobody cares but the few WJ pilots in the country

[TFTMB heavy]

They can also go into a conciliation period, which I believe they (WS MEC) have filed for. You don't go from negotiations straight to arbitration necessarily.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-soc ... ining.html

[Fanblade]

They can also go into a conciliation period, which I believe they (WS MEC) have filed for. You don't go from negotiations straight to arbitration necessarily.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-soc ... ining.html

You don’t ever go straight from negotiations to arbitration unless both parties agree. It’s a process. Your link discribes it well with one caveat. I’m pretty sure strike/lockout is not an option on the first contract.

[TFTMB heavy]

They can also go into a conciliation period, which I believe they (WS MEC) have filed for. You don't go from negotiations straight to arbitration necessarily.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-soc ... ining.html

You don’t ever go straight from negotiations to arbitration unless both parties agree. It’s a process. Your link discribes it well with one caveat. I’m pretty sure strike/lockout is not an option on the first contract.

It is an option and likely will be the reason the contract is settled by Summer time provided the MEC can secure a decisive strike mandate. That's my opinion and only time will tell BTW.

[Demeter]

They won’t get a strike mandate. We have the wrong mec in place unfortunately with eroding credibility. A Hint is to start by telling the truth in the weekly reports and you might win a few of us back. Sorry but I’ve seen enough of the pub night invites. Nice to see the winnipeg arm buying breakfast for all he flies with as well. Who is paying for that? Oh ya, sorry I read it the other day. We are under budget

[TFTMB heavy]

They won’t get a strike mandate. We have the wrong mec in place unfortunately with eroding credibility. A Hint is to start by telling the truth in the weekly reports and you might win a few of us back. Sorry but I’ve seen enough of the pub night invites. Nice to see the winnipeg arm buying breakfast for all he flies with as well. Who is paying for that? Oh ya, sorry I read it the other day. We are under budget

I can't comment on that but I can tell you that having been thru a couple of negotiation as a line pilot and on the negations team, they are very hard on the morale. The best thing to do is talk to the MEC directly if you have any questions or comments and show up for PUB nights and other union related events. It's the best way to stay informed and also shows support to the pilots that are volunteering their time for the cause.

Show support and have some faith in the people that stepped up. Most important of all, do not discredit them in public!

[Fanblade]

It is an option and likely will be the reason the contract is settled by Summer time provided the MEC can secure a decisive strike mandate. That's my opinion and only time will tell BTW.

First contract arbitration

http://www.mondaq.com/canada/x/150668/E ... rbitration

https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/ri/198 ... 9087ar.pdf

Under this amendment , where the parties negotiating a first collective
agreement are unable to reach agreement and hâve met ail the légal re- quirements précèdent to a strike or lockout, the Minister may direct the Board to inquire into the dispute and if advisable settle the terms and condi- tions of the collective agreement.

Upon such a referrai, the Board settles the terms and conditions of a first collective agreement which constitutes the agreement between the par- ties and is binding on them. This agreement will be effective for a period of one year.

[Fanblade]

It is an option and likely will be the reason the contract is settled by Summer time provided the MEC can secure a decisive strike mandate. That's my opinion and only time will tell BTW.

First contract arbitration

http://www.mondaq.com/canada/x/150668/E ... rbitration

https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/ri/198 ... 9087ar.pdf

Under this amendment , where the parties negotiating a first collective
agreement are unable to reach agreement and hâve met ail the légal re- quirements précèdent to a strike or lockout, the Minister may direct the Board to inquire into the dispute and if advisable settle the terms and condi- tions of the collective agreement.

Upon such a referrai, the Board settles the terms and conditions of a first collective agreement which constitutes the agreement between the par- ties and is binding on them. This agreement will be effective for a period of one year.

If you read the above and then contemplate ALPA and Saretsky’s comments it makes more sense. They may be both saying the same thing.

ALPA says a contract this summer.

Saretsky says no agreement in 2018. But no agreement likely means arbitration. Arbitration means we couldn’t agree.

“It’s going to take a long time,” CEO Gregg Saretsky told a Toronto transportation conference. “It is unlikely that there will be an agreement in 2018.”

Both comments are in sync if forced arbitration isn’t really an agreement.

I think both parties are now heading in the same direction after applying for conciliation. I think ALPA would have liked to negotiate but WJ management has decided to take the arbitration route.

WJ management’s strategy is delay. A first contract arbitration will break no new ground other than a grievance process. Then they get a year beyond that at status quo. All in all the entire process from ALPA certification to the end of the one year contract, is two years of status quo. Once the first real contract negotiations get started in 2019, just the usual delays could take the process into early 2020.

But back to my original reason for posting. Buyer beware for those applying to Swoop. What Swoop’s management tell’s or offers you is likely meaningless. Your position, wages and working conditions will ultimately be settled at the negotiations table by WJ pilots or through an arbitrator and it might take a while.

[lostaviator]

A Hint is to start by telling the truth in the weekly reports and you might win a few of us back

Can you back that statement up with proof/facts?

I’d say the company (to date) has been much more dishonest then the mec.

[cjet]

They won’t get a strike mandate. We have the wrong mec in place unfortunately with eroding credibility. A Hint is to start by telling the truth in the weekly reports and you might win a few of us back. Sorry but I’ve seen enough of the pub night invites. Nice to see the winnipeg arm buying breakfast for all he flies with as well. Who is paying for that? Oh ya, sorry I read it the other day. We are under budget

I've not read one false thing yet in the fastreads. So far I've been very impressed with the open communication from the MEC. The unity on the line is very cool to see I think you'll be very surprised if we get to a stike vote.

CJET

[JoeyBarton]

This reminds me of that moment in 2013 when everybody at AC complained at giving up the 15 E175 to sky regional, you all remember that massive thread that lasted for a while. 5 years later nobody remembers that fight anymore..And guess what all these E175 skippers are willing to do exactly the same at Swoop and grab those DEC spots like they did at sky, sit on the seniority and wait for things to improve because they do improve after 5 years. Except this time the payscale starts higher and improves by 10k every year after that. Keep in mind there's a lot of unhappy skippers at Jazz, sky and ggn. For them it is better pay and lifestyle then flying the flag. Unless wj alpa merges the list really fast, I don't see how anything is going to be done to stop these express folks from applying at Swoop. It happened at Sky it will happen here. Sadly

[atphat]

This reminds me of that moment in 2013 when everybody at AC complained at giving up the 15 E175 to sky regional, you all remember that massive thread that lasted for a while. 5 years later nobody remembers that fight anymore..And guess what all these E175 skippers are willing to do exactly the same at Swoop and grab those DEC spots like they did at sky, sit on the seniority and wait for things to improve because they do improve after 5 years. Except this time the payscale starts higher and improves by 10k every year after that. Keep in mind there's a lot of unhappy skippers at Jazz, sky and ggn. For them it is better pay and lifestyle then flying the flag. Unless wj alpa merges the list really fast, I don't see how anything is going to be done to stop these express folks from applying at Swoop. It happened at Sky it will happen here. Sadly

Well said. Sky is no longer the "scab" place to be. It's normalized. Swoop is the next step. Sadly

[Demeter]

[Greenbastard]

Demeter you seem confident in your efforts to discredit our elected MEC. What exactly is your contribution to anything on this matter? What is your solution to the current state ? Or do you just criticize from the shadows.

[altiplano]

This reminds me of that moment in 2013 when everybody at AC complained at giving up the 15 E175 to sky regional

Good point... Remember "those moments"

Sky Regional? Just 5 Dashes on the Island...
In the end they gutted our jobs and pay. Not just took the 175s, but the WB FO pay too that we gave to improve EMJ CA pay - vanished - gone.

Like Rouge... Remember "that moment"?
Only 30 319s and 20 767s? So soon it became 25 of any NBJ and 25 767s... but "that's it"... jeesh... now unlimited NBJs, more 321s coming, threatening to take more, all of our regional upgauging at B scale... all the best productive flying and layovers, not to mention all of our bargaining capital and many concessions trying to "fix".,..

Remember "those moments" - because they bring down our careers.

No more moments please.

[tailgunner]

When SKY started there were 55 CA jobs in YVR on the EMB. 55 CA jobs in YUL, and some 245 CA jobs in YYZ. Now there are 125 CA jobs in YYZ. So, those SKY CA's that bid there time over there, only to now get on to mainline have taken at least a 50% wage cut for the last 5 years or so. They were happy with 84000 per year, all the while they should have/could have been earning upwards of 150000....yup , worked brilliantly.
Don't do this with Swoop

[Art Garfunkel]

I get the impression that there is no ownership for the creation of Sky Regional by ACPA. Wasn't there a clause in the old contract that limited regional flying to just one carrier? (JAZZ). I know, I know, that clause was taken out by FOS arbitration. But was it? Not pointing fingers here, but I hate it when we blame other pilots for taking jobs that are out there on the free market for less than other jobs. We let it happen!

Time to stop looking in the past and look to control the future. I hate Swoop, Sky, GGN and Rouge for everything that it stands for……Lowering the Pilot Profession. Time to unite and realize that we do need one controlling body to control pilot wages and working conditions. We have seen what happens when corporations are left to it.

Time for ACPA to come back!
Time for Sky to organize!
Time for WJ pilots to unite and say no to lowering wages!
Time for Pilots in Canada to stand together like brothers/sisters go forward with wages and not backwards!

[Fanblade]

I get the impression that there is no ownership for the creation of Sky Regional by ACPA. Wasn't there a clause in the old contract that limited regional flying to just one carrier? (JAZZ). I know, I know, that clause was taken out by FOS arbitration. But was it? Not pointing fingers here......

As an AC pilot I will point for you. Yes FOS imposed the change that ended Jazz's exclusive regional carrier status. However it is equally true that FOS simply imposed what ACPA had freely negotiated with the company in the first place.

The whole thing ended in arbitration after being widely rejected by the membership.

An ACPA epic fail.

[George Taylor]

The angry grandpa and the orange demon had so many other ways to stay competitive and battle the ULCC's.
Swoop is nothing more then a giant FU to the pilots.
Here's another example of the great management at Air Canada:

http://www.travelweek.ca/news/air-canad ... est-price/