Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

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altiplano
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by altiplano »

dialdriver wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:23 am Please clarify something for me: You're an airline pilot making threats, in writing, on a public forum? Is that correct?
I'm not making any threats... I'm just stating fact.

In many industries across the western world today and through time, people thinking they could walk in and take someone else's job and subvert organized labour without consequence have been wrong. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I think a lot of people have got a lot more than just a frosty stare.
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altiplano
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by altiplano »

Impact wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:04 pm
altiplano wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:09 am
......

I'd be surprised if it was just "frosty stares"...

In other industries, some might start by slashing tires and go from there...
This^^^^

......is why I no longer believe that being a pilot is considered a "profession". One does not see Doctors or Lawyers threatening each other with union induced thuggery.
Again, no threats - just an observation. I have no skin in this particular game.

Since you mention it though:

Doctors - you should have seen some of the stuff going around in the OMA recently with their contract, looking to cut out of one pie to grow another... Specialists vs. GPs vs. Association people - and they are in the same union.

Lawyers - they probably just sue each other. Then again they probably don't undercut each other - they all look for how they can bill for more.

Pilots - we are chumps, we do it for peanuts and then tell the ones trying to grow or maintain the wawcon that they're out of touch.
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dialdriver
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by dialdriver »

Milton Friedman - The Real World Effect of Unions

https://youtu.be/xzYgiOC9cj4
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groundpilot
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by groundpilot »

dialdriver wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:50 pm Milton Friedman - The Real World Effect of Unions

https://youtu.be/xzYgiOC9cj4
From 1980
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complexintentions
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by complexintentions »

altiplano wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:09 am
complexintentions wrote:The only thing that surprises me is that B73ABC even bothers to engage at all. I'd just apply and come take the job if it works for him. Hell, I may do the same myself. If only so I can reap the amusement of observing what passes for seething resentment in Canada.
You are contradicting yourself...

"I wouldn't even bother to engage" "I'll just bring my smug ass over and take your job"

Yet here you are "engaging"...

I'd be surprised if it was just "frosty stares"...

In other industries, some might start by slashing tires and go from there...
How am I contradicting myself? I said I was surprised that "B73ABC even bothers to engage", and I'm not B73ABC. Learn to read and don't invent/selectively quote.

Here's the thing. It's not "Your" job. It's anyone's who can apply, qualify, and be offered it. You need to lose your sense of entitlement and possessiveness over things that aren't yours to grant. You're just gonna get an ulcer.

Nope, it's not a joke to me - I feel sorry for those who are bitter about things they have no control over and choose to blame others. Hell, there are still a few ex-Canadian (Airline) guys who when you casually say hi and ask how their day is, automatically say "Not bad, for someone who got screwed out of 30 years of seniority!"

Still victims, after all these years. Pathetic.

The point is that Swoop is a market-driven decision, and the market will decide if it's viable. If they are able to easily attract enough job applicants, then their wages are clearly not "too low". Yet here we are before they've even remotely released any specific details about their compensation package and there are people making veiled threats.

How can one not be either amused or saddened, in turn?

Because it IS sad to know for a fact that the anger and resentment you and people like oldcommercialpilot exhibit only serve to poison your own mental and physical health. The rest of the world hardly notices and definitely doesn't care.
atphat wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:53 amWhy are you even on this site? Because you have a Canadian passport?
To contribute philosophy advice. No charge. You're welcome! :mrgreen:

Oh, and I gots me a Canadian ADB to go with the passport as well. So there's that.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by Greenbastard »

Complex intentions, you stopped being a pilot long time ago. You have been a low level manager who has poisoned this pilot group with your KGB style bullshit emails and calls. Under law we have entitlement to those jobs. Old commercial pilot we value your opinion. This will play out much different then you think. My apologies if I have wrongly identified you as DP.
GB
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Last edited by Greenbastard on Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
altiplano
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by altiplano »

"Learn to read"

I read just fine.

I'll ask again, why don't you stop carrying on about it and put your money where your mouth is?

Come reap some amusement at the expense of another group getting an illegal end run done on them?
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infiniteregulus
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by infiniteregulus »

Wow it seems these threads are closely following the stages of grief for a loss. One could argue the loss of our profession.

Denial
Guilt
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

First it started with shock and denial that Swoop was even a thing. Then came the guilt of blaming ourselves for this deplorable startup. Next came out-lashing and hate/blacklists towards anyone thinking of going there. Now people are trying to justify this garbage by any means possible.
Truly is pathetic how emotionally feeble the response is. I'm guilty of it too. But nonetheless interesting.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by GRK2 »

Wow...all this anger and finger pointing at each other. GGG (did I get that right? That's what you all call him these days, yes?) is surely sitting in that big office in YYC and having himself a giggle. Wake the eff up people! He's splitting you right apart, and all he had to do was talk about SWOOP and sit back and watch. You've wound yourselves up like a cheap watch. It's all well and good to debate the various legalities and opinions about whether or not the flying belongs to WS or can someone can simply come back from an overseas gig and slip into a LHS. But the venom will only serve to slowly poison the pilots, not GGG. He's counting on it. Now you're letting others light you right up and they are having a bit of a laugh as well. Stick together people, you have a ruthless and scheming CEO to who is counting on your anger at each other to do his dirty work. Your careers are at stake and you're looking the wrong way...pay attention.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by complexintentions »

Greenbastard wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:45 pm Complex intentions, you stopped being a pilot long time ago. You have been a low level manager who has poisoned this pilot group with your KGB style bullshit emails and calls. Under law we have entitlement to those jobs. Old commercial pilot we value your opinion. This will play out much different then you think. My apologies if I have wrongly identified you as DP.
GB
Uhhhh...what?

Emails and calls? KGB? hahah! wtf?

Sorry man, but you appear to have lost your mind. I'm just a regular pilot with an opinion on economics. You don't have to agree, but it doesn't mean they don't apply.

altiplano wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:01 pmI'll ask again, why don't you stop carrying on about it and put your money where your mouth is?

Come reap some amusement at the expense of another group getting an illegal end run done on them?
Is the job even being advertised yet? Post a link then, with the T&C so we can debate facts without all the drama.

You guys make no sense. All convinced you're legally "entitled to those jobs", yet lashing out at anyone who suggests you may not get them. Make up your minds.

GRK astutely points out: "the venom will only serve to slowly poison the pilots, not GGG."
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by Rowdy »

Aren't all of you west jetty people, umm 'Owners' with a bunch of stock? Does that not make you shareholders? With a vote? With the ability to punt GS? Or the board that elected the dingus?
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by FL410AV8R »

complexintentions wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:47 pm
Is the job even being advertised yet? Post a link then, with the T&C so we can debate facts without all the drama.
https://career4.successfactors.com/care ... zeoELbU%3d
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by Maritimer »

GRK2 wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:52 pm Wow...all this anger and finger pointing at each other. GGG (did I get that right? That's what you all call him these days, yes?) is surely sitting in that big office in YYC and having himself a giggle. Wake the eff up people! He's splitting you right apart, and all he had to do was talk about SWOOP and sit back and watch. You've wound yourselves up like a cheap watch. It's all well and good to debate the various legalities and opinions about whether or not the flying belongs to WS or can someone can simply come back from an overseas gig and slip into a LHS. But the venom will only serve to slowly poison the pilots, not GGG. He's counting on it. Now you're letting others light you right up and they are having a bit of a laugh as well. Stick together people, you have a ruthless and scheming CEO to who is counting on your anger at each other to do his dirty work. Your careers are at stake and you're looking the wrong way...pay attention.

Don’t take the posts of a few people make you think the majority of 1400 of us are taking the bait. We believe and trust our MEC. It’ll all play out fine in the end.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by mbav8r »

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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by mbav8r »

complexintentions wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:47 pm
Greenbastard wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:45 pm Complex intentions, you stopped being a pilot long time ago. You have been a low level manager who has poisoned this pilot group with your KGB style bullshit emails and calls. Under law we have entitlement to those jobs. Old commercial pilot we value your opinion. This will play out much different then you think. My apologies if I have wrongly identified you as DP.
GB
Uhhhh...what?

Emails and calls? KGB? hahah! wtf?

Sorry man, but you appear to have lost your mind. I'm just a regular pilot with an opinion on economics. You don't have to agree, but it doesn't mean they don't apply.
.
altiplano wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:01 pmI'll ask again, why don't you stop carrying on about it and put your money where your mouth is?

Come reap some amusement at the expense of another group getting an illegal end run done on them?
Is the job even being advertised yet? Post a link then, with the T&C so we can debate facts without all the drama.

You guys make no sense. All convinced you're legally "entitled to those jobs", yet lashing out at anyone who suggests you may not get them. Make up your minds.

GRK astutely points out: "the venom will only serve to slowly poison the pilots, not GGG."
Complex, there is language in the current agreement that amounts to scope, it says that any flying done for/by WJ or an affiliate of WJ in any capacity will be done by WJ/Encore Pilots. That is why they own the flying, not because they feel they should, it’s agreed to and can’t be changed unless the new agreement removes it.
Now having seen this dance before, I’m thinking the timing of the announcement and everything to date is negotiation 101, scope is going to cost them or they may make some gains to give it up, it will be a battle for sure.
I think Saretsky will just launch it anyway and settle in arbitration, just my guess
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by Victory »

“…..we don’t have a scope clause but we always acted [as if we do]. And this is where airlines get into trouble, when they do things that they really shouldn’t. But we’ve always acted as if we had a scope clause. And so we’ve been careful not to violate the virtual scope clause that is in our agreement."
- Gregg

Is it real or is it virutal?
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by Oldcommercialpilot »

Rowdy wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:03 pm Aren't all of you west jetty people, umm 'Owners' with a bunch of stock? Does that not make you shareholders? With a vote? With the ability to punt GS? Or the board that elected the dingus?
Believe me, it’s been discussed. There’s a lot more involved than 1500 employees simply voting a CEO out of his position and the last time it was looked at I don’t believe the pilots alone held a significantly controlling share of WJ. Nowadays though, I think the FAs & AMEs have just about reached the point where they would be willing to vote their shares as well. Regardless, most pilots I know have already liquidated as much WJA stock as possible and I would think the same applies to most other employees these days. It is not the same company it used to be. Why would you remain invested in a company when you don’t trust the CEO or believe in the direction he’s steering the company?
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Last edited by Oldcommercialpilot on Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by mbav8r »

Victory wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:28 pm
“…..we don’t have a scope clause but we always acted [as if we do]. And this is where airlines get into trouble, when they do things that they really shouldn’t. But we’ve always acted as if we had a scope clause. And so we’ve been careful not to violate the virtual scope clause that is in our agreement."
- Gregg

Is it real or is it virutal?
I don’t know why Gregg would say that to investors, maybe like every other CEO, he lied! The following quote was pulled from another thread, I don’t work for WJ but I’ve heard this before and have no doubt it’s written in the agreement.
“”This is why the term scab is being thrown around. From Section 10 of WestJet's 2015 Pilot Agreement.

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."”
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Oldcommercialpilot
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by Oldcommercialpilot »

Yep, it’s in the Agreement which is currently frozen under Canadian Labour Law and it will certainly end up in court/arbitration. Hard to say how it will play out in the end but this was the crux of my argument and the reason I started the thread in the first place. Not to belittle other pilots or to call them out for being scabs but more to point this out to young pilots considering leaving their jobs for Swoop. This will surely end up being a long and nasty labour dispute and there is no telling whether you’ll even have a job by the end of it. That reason, coupled with the litany of other reasons I gave, make this a pretty uncertain & unappealing job opportunity if you ask me.
So I ask again... aside from logging some jet time so you can skip the country, why would anyone even want to go to Swoop? Unless you’re already unemployed, why would you leave a job for such an uncertain future? I could see someone justifying the risk if it was for a great lifestyle or great pay, but we already know you’re going to be working long hard days, for little money/benefits. Saretsky’s not even attempting to play down that fact. On top of all that you would be pissing off your fellow pilots and violating an ALPA ban.
I just don’t really see much upside unless you’re already unemployed and have nothing to lose. Otherwise, you could be looking for work again in 6 months and starting from the bottom somewhere else. At least you would have SWOOP on your resume... but, then again you may find that more of a hinderance than a help.
So apply for the job if you want, just make sure you have all the facts before you jump ship from your current job.
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Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

Post by Noo »

Oldcommercialpilot wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:59 pm aside from logging some jet time so you can skip the country
That's a pretty good reason. I don't think people realize how well paid pilots are outside of Canada. They think it's maybe 25% more or something when it's actually like 700% more based on the latest job ad I just viewed advertising for 737 pilots.
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