Let's all apply at Swoop!

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DropTanks
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by DropTanks »

tbaylx wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:53 am
DropTanks wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:25 am
complexintentions wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:00 am With all due respect, they're WestJet's airplanes, and they are free to deploy them as they see best to maximize profit. I don't mean this unkindly, but your career progression doesn't begin to hold the same priority for the company as making money.

Does it suck? Yes. But talking about people "daring" to take a job available on the open market is just silly. I doubt there's only a handful considering it. Look at how Encore has had no problem crewing turboprops for less money.

Incidentally if Air Canada decided to open up a separate B777 operation I would most certainly have a look at applying, as that is a machine I have a few hours on. And that IS how it works. Jobs are advertised, people apply.
Oh I see, so you have absolutely no regard for the law in this country. Labour law is as lawful as any other. That’s why AC CANNOT just start a B777 operation because they feel like it and have you apply. THAT is how it works.

WJ has decided to test the resolve of the law of the land by offering Swoop to outsiders. They may be successful by I seriously doubt WJ will be able to thwart decades of labour law all by themselves. You may not like how labour law protects unionized workers but that’s how it is. Do you seriously think the labour board will just sit on their hands and let WJ open an affiliate airline to avoid unionized labour? What would the business landscape look like the next week as every other unionized company suddenly says: “holly crap! Why didn’t we think of that!?” 🙄. You really think the labour board will allow CN Rail Express or General Motors Lite or Ford Link to pop up and take all the job from their unionized counterparts? Give your head a shake.
Labour law does not prevent Air Canada from starting a separate B777 operation. The collective agreement with ACPA prevents that.

Labour law prevents a company from changing working conditions at the existing company unilaterally, either through outsourcing existing work to a subsidiary for lower costs or non negotiated changes. It does not prevent a company from starting up a separate company for expansion with different terms and conditions and non unionized employees if it doesn't affect the working conditions of the existing employees.

Scope clauses negotiated in a contract prevent that, not labour law.
And what enforces the collective agreement? The law. Six of one, half dozen of the other. In case nobody mentioned it before let me enlighten you in a meet little tidbit of our current frozen agreement...basically language that says all flying will be done by pilots on our seniority list. And that seniority list dictates who does what based on position bids in seniority order.

You never answered my question though...do you think the CIRB will sit back and let WJ circumvent a unionized labour group? What precedent do you think that would set for EVERY OTHER unionized company in the country? Care to wager how they’ll go?
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tbaylx
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by tbaylx »

RidersRule wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:10 pm
tbaylx wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:33 am
RidersRule wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:21 am

Actually it is quite possible. The conciliation process has started which takes us to April 27. After that a 21 day cooling off period. That's takes us till the middle of May when we can start applying economic pressure.

I believe that timeline is correct. I would think there would be a new contract before June 1st. I doubt they will want labour unrest over the busy summer season.

Especially with the latest ruling from the CIRB. At some point WestJet is going to realize that this isn't the WJPA anymore.
That would be the first time that anything moved that fast in contract negotiations. Even if ALPA and WJ were on the same page you would be lucky to have a contract in place by June. I've done a few and never seen it happen on that timeline.
This is all about pressure.

The pilots just won two major battles. They got the conciliation process started that lets us apply pressure by the middle of May. They stopped the LOA program.

The executive has not been negotiating at all. Full stop. My personal opinion is they wanted to drag this out as long as possible to get Swoop in the air. Our MEC has made themselves available from what I've read pretty much daily. They have no choice now but to get to the table. Well I guess, they do have a choice. They can continue to drag their heels. But now we have a process that we can follow to apply pressure.

It's all about leverage. And the CIRB just handed it to the pilots.

Interesting times in any case.
Yes the concilliation process should help move things along and get everyone talking at least. The process can certainly take time though. The CIRB simply went back to the existing WJPA contract on the LOA. I'm not sure that's much of a victory for the MEC.

Honest question though, at the bargaining table Swoop will still have OTS pilots already on the property. Do you think that the MEC is going to suggest taking your guys out on strike to try and reverse that assuming that's the main sticking point? Do you think if it went to arbitration the CIRB would damage one group of employees (Swoop OTS) to benefit another (WestJet Mainline)?

I believe eventually there will be some sort of compromise between all parties and it's going to include OTS pilots at Swoop. How the seniority all works out will depend on what you guys negotiate i suppose.
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tbaylx
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by tbaylx »

DropTanks wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:22 pm
tbaylx wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:53 am
DropTanks wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:25 am

Oh I see, so you have absolutely no regard for the law in this country. Labour law is as lawful as any other. That’s why AC CANNOT just start a B777 operation because they feel like it and have you apply. THAT is how it works.

WJ has decided to test the resolve of the law of the land by offering Swoop to outsiders. They may be successful by I seriously doubt WJ will be able to thwart decades of labour law all by themselves. You may not like how labour law protects unionized workers but that’s how it is. Do you seriously think the labour board will just sit on their hands and let WJ open an affiliate airline to avoid unionized labour? What would the business landscape look like the next week as every other unionized company suddenly says: “holly crap! Why didn’t we think of that!?” 🙄. You really think the labour board will allow CN Rail Express or General Motors Lite or Ford Link to pop up and take all the job from their unionized counterparts? Give your head a shake.
Labour law does not prevent Air Canada from starting a separate B777 operation. The collective agreement with ACPA prevents that.

Labour law prevents a company from changing working conditions at the existing company unilaterally, either through outsourcing existing work to a subsidiary for lower costs or non negotiated changes. It does not prevent a company from starting up a separate company for expansion with different terms and conditions and non unionized employees if it doesn't affect the working conditions of the existing employees.

Scope clauses negotiated in a contract prevent that, not labour law.
And what enforces the collective agreement? The law. Six of one, half dozen of the other. In case nobody mentioned it before let me enlighten you in a meet little tidbit of our current frozen agreement...basically language that says all flying will be done by pilots on our seniority list. And that seniority list dictates who does what based on position bids in seniority order.

You never answered my question though...do you think the CIRB will sit back and let WJ circumvent a unionized labour group? What precedent do you think that would set for EVERY OTHER unionized company in the country? Care to wager how they’ll go?
I don't think the CIRB will take sides in the OTS pilot hiring, they'll let the negotiating process hammer that out. They would only take action if it changed the existing working conditions for WJ pilots, and that does not include right to expansion. But hey, my opinion is worth about the same as yours in the end. I don't work for the CIRB.
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DropTanks
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by DropTanks »

On that much we are agreed. IMHO we might just see a few OTS to staff 2 planes then it’ll get hashed out. They’ll end up on the bottom of the seniority list with protection or “fences” to keep their current Swoop spot or something. The CIRB isn’t likely to cause harm to one group of employees for the sake of others. That being said I think it’ll be just a minuscule few OTS and not hundreds of pilots as it’ll get hashed out in bargaining to be WJ pilots doing it. All entirely my opinion but I am a genius in my own mind.
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Last edited by DropTanks on Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tbaylx
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by tbaylx »

DropTanks wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:01 pm On that much we are agreed. IMHO we might just see a few OTS to staff 2 planes then it’ll get hashed out. They’ll end up on the bottom of the seniority list with protection or “fences” to keep their current Swoop spot or something. The CIRB isn’t likely to cause harm to one group of employees for the sake of others. That being said I think it’ll be just a minuscule few OTS and not hundreds of pilots as it’ll get bashed out in bargaining to be WJ pilots doing it. All entirely my opinion but I am a genius in my own mind.
I believe that's probably exactly what will end up happening
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Transonic
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by Transonic »

Those 20 or so pilots also reside in their 90 day probationary period. The precendent has been set, there is zero loyalty from the current leadership. They can all be terminated in exchange for bargaining capital.
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FL410AV8R
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by FL410AV8R »

tbaylx wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:51 pm

Yes the concilliation process should help move things along and get everyone talking at least. The process can certainly take time though. The CIRB simply went back to the existing WJPA contract on the LOA. I'm not sure that's much of a victory for the MEC.
Two minor corrections here for the sake of keeping things factual.

The conciliation process will definitely move things along as there is a finite timeframe for conciliation to occur, sixty days (ends on April 27th 2018) from the appointment of the conciliator he/she is bound to write their report to the Minister of Labour. The only way the conciliation period can be extended beyond 60 days is if ALL parties involved agree that significant progress is being made. If any party does not agree that genuine progress is being made, and will continue to be made then the parties will be released by the conciliator. This begins the 21 day cooling off period during which negotiations and progress can still occur but it too is a finite timeline ending in mid May.

So IMHO and from my experience in previous contract negotiations things are either going to move rapidly to a sensible conclusion before Swoop's launch at the beginning of June or they will go completely off the rails and the WestJet and the WestJet pilots will be in a legal strike/lockout position in the middle of May. I don't believe there will be much of an appetite for a middle ground given the company's antics up to this point.

Secondly, the CIRB did not go back to anything in the existing WJPA agreement. The company changed the company-wide LOA policy to suit its own needs (offering Swoop positions by favouritism) during the statutory freeze with absolutely no consultation or input from ALPA. The CIRB ruled that they violated the statutory freeze and had to cease and desist from bargaining around the union and had to rescind any LOAs already awarded. This is a significant feather in the cap of ALPA MEC.
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Transonic
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by Transonic »

tbaylx wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:33 am
The CIRB simply went back to the existing WJPA contract on the LOA. I'm not sure that's much of a victory for the MEC.
It is. The previous LOA provision was 6 months. The 6 months was quietly erased in January and touted as a means to transfer to Swoop while being protected on the WestJet list under the current agreement. That is nolonger the case. There is no guarantee. A tough sell for any pilot looking to fill the management and training ranks at Swoop. It was WestJet's intention all along to fill spots with junior WestJet FOs and Encore Capts.

Further, the LOA was covered under a "See WestNet" clause in our agreement. ALPA argued this was an extension of our frozen work rules. The CIRB agreed.
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RidersRule
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by RidersRule »

Well said FL410AV8R.

In any case the WestJet pilots are a lot better off today then they were Thursday.

Proud of what my MEC has accomplished with the support of ALPA.
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complexintentions
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by complexintentions »

Meh. So much focus on protecting your own asses, but no analysis of how it may affect the overall operation. No wonder pilots are shit businessmen! :mrgreen:

But hey, it's Canada where the tail wags the dog. I'm not surprised. It's the current political climate - 180 degrees from the US. That should work.

Ultimately, the adversarial approach will just cause more pain down the road. The writing is on the wall.
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atphat
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by atphat »

Just more blah blah blah :roll:
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by AvifiskAlly »

FL410AV8R wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:16 pm
tbaylx wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:51 pm

Yes the concilliation process should help move things along and get everyone talking at least. The process can certainly take time though. The CIRB simply went back to the existing WJPA contract on the LOA. I'm not sure that's much of a victory for the MEC.
Two minor corrections here for the sake of keeping things factual.

The conciliation process will definitely move things along as there is a finite timeframe for conciliation to occur, sixty days (ends on April 27th 2018) from the appointment of the conciliator he/she is bound to write their report to the Minister of Labour. The only way the conciliation period can be extended beyond 60 days is if ALL parties involved agree that significant progress is being made. If any party does not agree that genuine progress is being made, and will continue to be made then the parties will be released by the conciliator. This begins the 21 day cooling off period during which negotiations and progress can still occur but it too is a finite timeline ending in mid May.

So IMHO and from my experience in previous contract negotiations things are either going to move rapidly to a sensible conclusion before Swoop's launch at the beginning of June or they will go completely off the rails and the WestJet and the WestJet pilots will be in a legal strike/lockout position in the middle of May. I don't believe there will be much of an appetite for a middle ground given the company's antics up to this point.

Secondly, the CIRB did not go back to anything in the existing WJPA agreement. The company changed the company-wide LOA policy to suit its own needs (offering Swoop positions by favouritism) during the statutory freeze with absolutely no consultation or input from ALPA. The CIRB ruled that they violated the statutory freeze and had to cease and desist from bargaining around the union and had to rescind any LOAs already awarded. This is a significant feather in the cap of ALPA MEC.
Doesn't that just mean more OTS? Just asking - have no idea.
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complexintentions
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by complexintentions »

atphat wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:02 am Just more blah blah blah :roll
Really, I have no horse in this race. Just here for the entertainment value of watching people twist themselves into contortions trying to convince themselves and everyone's else they're doing God's Work fighting for a "progressive contract" (blah blah blah) when it's just plain old naked self-interest. :mrgreen:

At least buddy there worried about his upgrade is honest about it.

There are tons of people who'll take the Swoop jobs if they feel like it. But only if the conditions are worth it. That's what so amusing - if the pay is as bad as all the dire warnings, there's nothing to worry about. Yet people are obviously very worried. Suck and blow.

The WestJet pilots can't "win" against management, because they've already lost. Forget the CIRB ruling, wen there's this much animosity in the Koolaid Kingdom...you've already lost. Dissent was the true goal, and objective achieved.

And didn't appear very hard for the PTB.

Keep on rockin' in the free world, comrades. :supz:
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

complexintentions wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:30 pm
atphat wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:02 am Just more blah blah blah :roll
Really, I have no horse in this race. Just here for the entertainment value of watching people twist themselves into contortions trying to convince themselves and everyone's else they're doing God's Work fighting for a "progressive contract" (blah blah blah) when it's just plain old naked self-interest. :mrgreen:

At least buddy there worried about his upgrade is honest about it.

There are tons of people who'll take the Swoop jobs if they feel like it. But only if the conditions are worth it. That's what so amusing - if the pay is as bad as all the dire warnings, there's nothing to worry about. Yet people are obviously very worried. Suck and blow.

The WestJet pilots can't "win" against management, because they've already lost. Forget the CIRB ruling, wen there's this much animosity in the Koolaid Kingdom...you've already lost. Dissent was the true goal, and objective achieved.

And didn't appear very hard for the PTB.

Keep on rockin' in the free world, comrades. :supz:
Be careful speaking such blasphemy, or they'll brand you as *gasp* NCP or his many personalities. :rolleyes:

S.
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by CaptainHaddock »

‘Swoop will still have OTS pilots already on the property.’

I don’t think there are any actual living/breathing OTS Swoop Pilots on property yet, I think the hired ones don’t start until April. But maybe like snuffleupagus they do actually exist now.

Any Swoopsters or NCP derivatives out there to comment?
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by Longtimer »

You have to wonder where the trained pilots will be coming from.

WestJet: Swoop still headed for June takeoff despite issues with pilot union

By: Staff The Canadian Press Published on Wed Mar 07 2018


CALGARY — WestJet Airlines says it's still on course to launch its new Swoop ultra-low-cost carrier despite unresolved bargaining issues with the Air Line Pilots Association, as the two sides negotiate a first contract.


The Canada Industrial Relations Board recently ordered WestJet to withdraw a new policy of offering its pilots a two-year leave of absence if they go to fly for Swoop.

The ALPA complained that the policy, posted by WestJet on Jan. 31, was a significant change in the company's terms of employment and an interference with the union's right to represent the pilots.

A CIRB ruling dated March 2 and announced on Tuesday agreed that the policy could pose "substantial irreparable harm to the union" and noted that the alleged violation came during "the sensitive period of collective bargaining."

It also said its order revoking the leave policy would remain in place until either a related complaint of unfair labour practices was dealt with by the board, or a collective agreement is reached.

A WestJet representative decline to be interviewed on the CIRB's decision but said in an email that the launch of Swoop is on track for its first flight in June.
"WestJet remains committed to engaging in constructive dialogue with ALPA and we are optimistic we will come to a fair and reasonable agreement," the company said Wednesday.


The ALPA represents about 1,500 pilots at WestJet's main service and 500 at its WestJet Encore regional service.
WestJet is aiming to launch Swoop with three aircraft in June and grow to six by September.


By the spring of next year, Swoop would have 10 planes and eventually reach 30 to 40 aircraft on domestic and international flights.
Story Link: http://www.metronews.ca/news/calgary/20 ... union.html
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Boney
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by Boney »

You are missing an important point. Notwithstanding WestJet owns both, Wja & Swoop, they are different companies with different OC’s. Therefore, although work is being contracted to WJA, Swoop can and will get whatever training contracts needed by any company that will provide it at a reasonable cost.

The offer to WJA pilots, via LOA, was to bring WestJet’s culture and experiences as well as have WJA pilots having a foot in the door to bring all parties on board, to eventually have a similar arrangement like Encore, aka one list.

However, pilots are applying and training will be done with or without WJA involvement.

But as usual, ALPA and the many of its pilots, especially those that will now slam my post, is thinking like an employee vs an owner, which we all did, up to a few years ago.

ALPA is thinking only in the present and not to the future. Collaboration would keep you at the table vs getting a memo, thus ensuring job protection to all three enterprises.

The salary bit I do understand but, just like Encore when they first started vs today, Swoop would also see an increase as well. If only ALPA collaborate. Aw well, opportunity lost.

IMHO.

Flame away boys as I step aside and watch you go ape and increase your blood pressure. Lol
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RidersRule
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by RidersRule »

DONT FEED THE TROLL
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by GAF »

With the way things are going, and the mess this company is in, I would not be surprised to see a change at the top in the near future.
Labour unrest, Swoop to begin flying in just over 3 month and 787's showing up in 10 months with no routes announced and no base announced, perhpes this present leadership is completely overwhelmed ? Time will tell.
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Boney
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Re: Let's all apply at Swoop!

Post by Boney »

RidersRule wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:47 pm DONT FEED THE TROLL
Lol. Believe it or not, I agree.

Interesting times ahead with this project and the other starting next year.

Cheers
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