CIRB Decision

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tbaylx
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by tbaylx »

A bit disingenuous comparing a year 6 F/O to a year 1 captain at Swoop?

How bout looking at a 5 to -10 year time span. A level 1 captain at swoop and level 1 f/o at WestJet both starting tomorrow. I think those numbers may play out a bit different, not to mention by year 3 the Swoop captain is making $130 an hour.

It might not attract a year 6 F/O but it sure as hell looks a lot more attractive to an Encore guy or a year 1-4 WestJet F/O. If you are making better money and have better opportunities already then don't go, but there are plenty of guys out there not making what a WestJet year 6 F/O is making that are interested i'm sure.
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Last edited by tbaylx on Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cjet
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by cjet »

Boney wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:26 pm
groundpilot wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:10 pm

One list and forced on us. Interesting.

Maybe that is where alpa should look for guidance in solving this. The one list works for Encore and the relationship seem to be working. Push for a one list with Swoop and maybe this may get everyone back to the table vs having the CIRB imposing something that could be less than the current contract.

Just wondering.

Ps. I’m anti union as I’ve had my fill of the crap they put out. This pilot group will get a wake up call and will wonder what happened.

Boney this is what ALPA and the WestJet pilots are fighting for. One list for all WestJet pilots flying WJ airplanes. You seem to be a little out of the loop. Come and join the WJ ALPA forum lots of great discussions going on.

Cjet
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Legacy
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by Legacy »

I agree Mach 1. There tends to be a lot of people on here that have about 20% of the details. It's these people that think there is nothing wrong with going to swoop.
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Boney
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by Boney »

cjet wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:37 pm
Boney wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:26 pm
groundpilot wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:10 pm

One list and forced on us. Interesting.

Maybe that is where alpa should look for guidance in solving this. The one list works for Encore and the relationship seem to be working. Push for a one list with Swoop and maybe this may get everyone back to the table vs having the CIRB imposing something that could be less than the current contract.

Just wondering.

Ps. I’m anti union as I’ve had my fill of the crap they put out. This pilot group will get a wake up call and will wonder what happened.

Boney this is what ALPA and the WestJet pilots are fighting for. One list for all WestJet pilots flying WJ airplanes. You seem to be a little out of the loop. Come and join the WJ ALPA forum lots of great discussions going on.

Cjet
We agree on a lot of things. I just don’t believe in alpa.

Cheers
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Mach1
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by Mach1 »

I took a pay cut to move to the airlines from charter world. Just like everyone else.

Should it be that way? No. But it is.
Was it pleasant? No.
Did it suck? Yes.
Did I survive it? Yes.
Did I ever look back? No. (I could sit around lamenting the past I cannot change, or I could have been bitter about it at the time, but I saw the long term gains)
How did that work out for me? I make 4 times what I made in charter world and increasing. I never would have made anywhere near this wage had I not sacrificed. So, I not only recovered my losses from taking that pay cut to move to an airline, I have come out so far ahead it is nearly miraculous.

It is an unpleasant reality that sometimes you have to take short term pain for a long term gain. I do think we should work towards fixing that reality... but it is not reality today. Just like pay in general. Am I really hard done by? No. That said, we should work towards higher wages because you never see an executive saying he's over paid, so I will take my cues from our leaders.

What's my point? Keep your eye on the long term gains. Don't cut your own throat for a dime today when you can have hundreds of dollars tomorrow.
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Transonic
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by Transonic »

Year 1-4 FO? This is not Air Canada's flat 4 year pay scale. After 2 years, you make more than a year 1 Swoop Captain. That's where the patience resides in the above arguments. Regardless, this is all an exercise. The positions will be filled by WestJet pilots in or near seniority order.
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Mach1
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by Mach1 »

tbaylx wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:32 pm How bout looking at a 5 to -10 year time span. A level 1 captain at swoop and level 1 f/o at WestJet both starting tomorrow. I think those numbers may play out a bit different, not to mention by year 3 the Swoop captain is making $130 an hour.

It might not attract a year 6 F/O but it sure as hell looks a lot more attractive to an Encore guy or a year 1-4 WestJet F/O. If you are making better money and have better opportunities already then don't go, but there are plenty of guys out there not making what a WestJet year 6 F/O is making that are interested i'm sure.
Please feel free to post your math here.

If you work in-house, and if you think this is such a great opportunity, feel free to resign your current position and take that gamble. You know, if you want to work for less money than you could/should be earning due to your own lack of patients, don't call it an opportunity. Given that you will be used to whipsaw my wages, you should understand that I won't be keen on you eating your cake and having it too (in terms of being able to run home to mom via LOA and keeping your seniority).

Personally, I would much rather see Swoop wages equaling WestJet wages (which are higher) and those opportunities for upgrades going to in-house candidates. This would result in hiring for new first officers, who will make greater life time earnings.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

There is no way that a year 2 WJ FO makes more than a Swoop captain
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

I am a year 4 F/O. T4 last year $131,000.00
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tbaylx
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by tbaylx »

I don't work in house, so I don't have your pay scales, and if I did I wouldn't' be able to take the opportunity anymore since that option is no longer available after the CIRB ruling. But as an outsider I can tell you what I'd pick if I was to apply, and it wouldn't be a mainline F/O making $50K.
I also don't blame others for looking for opportunities that work for them personally and taking them when they present themselves. I hope you guys can negotiate US level wages for yourselves and Encore and Swoop, but I sure don't blame anyone for taking opportunities that exist today vs potential ones in the future that may or may not be available to them. Bird in the hand and all that.
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DropTanks
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by DropTanks »

tbaylx wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:24 pm I don't work in house, so I don't have your pay scales, and if I did I wouldn't' be able to take the opportunity anymore since that option is no longer available after the CIRB ruling. But as an outsider I can tell you what I'd pick if I was to apply, and it wouldn't be a mainline F/O making $50K.
I also don't blame others for looking for opportunities that work for them personally and taking them when they present themselves. I hope you guys can negotiate US level wages for yourselves and Encore and Swoop, but I sure don't blame anyone for taking opportunities that exist today vs potential ones in the future that may or may not be available to them. Bird in the hand and all that.
$50k?! No no no sir. Year 2 was $85k with zero overtime and year 3 was $105k with about $5k of overtime. Year 4 should be $115k without overtime.
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Mach1
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by Mach1 »

tbaylx wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:24 pm and if I did I wouldn't' be able to take the opportunity anymore since that option is no longer available after the CIRB ruling.
The CIRB ruling would, in no way whatsoever, prevent you from working at Swoop. What it does is prevent you from taking a 2 year LOA, hold your position at WJ, go to work for Swoop and come back without losing any seniority or vacation. You always have the option of quitting your job and going to work for Swoop. But in doing so, you now lose your spot in line and if you come back, it's at the bottom of the list.... exactly like you quit to work for any other company.

It's not like the company is offering 2 year LOA's for me to go work in China or the Middle East and come back penalty free. So, if you have no idea what you are talking about or you have no bone in this dogfight, perhaps you should do a little self education before making inflammatory posts like they are fact. Try asking questions instead of making factually inaccurate statements.
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by Mach1 »

Image
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by '97 Tercel »

:lol:
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FICU
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by FICU »

tbaylx wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:32 pm A bit disingenuous comparing a year 6 F/O to a year 1 captain at Swoop?
You seem very vested in the Swoop discussions... moving on from SW?
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Westjetters love to tell you about their T4. And while I agree, money is money, I am interested in the actual salary.
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tbaylx
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by tbaylx »

FICU wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:54 pm
tbaylx wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:32 pm A bit disingenuous comparing a year 6 F/O to a year 1 captain at Swoop?
You seem very vested in the Swoop discussions... moving on from SW?
Already have about a year and a half ago.
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tbaylx
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by tbaylx »

Mach1 wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:06 pm
tbaylx wrote: Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:24 pm and if I did I wouldn't' be able to take the opportunity anymore since that option is no longer available after the CIRB ruling.
The CIRB ruling would, in no way whatsoever, prevent you from working at Swoop. What it does is prevent you from taking a 2 year LOA, hold your position at WJ, go to work for Swoop and come back without losing any seniority or vacation. You always have the option of quitting your job and going to work for Swoop. But in doing so, you now lose your spot in line and if you come back, it's at the bottom of the list.... exactly like you quit to work for any other company.

It's not like the company is offering 2 year LOA's for me to go work in China or the Middle East and come back penalty free. So, if you have no idea what you are talking about or you have no bone in this dogfight, perhaps you should do a little self education before making inflammatory posts like they are fact. Try asking questions instead of making factually inaccurate statements.
I meant the LOA opportunity isn't available anymore after the CIRB ruling, thought that was clear and also factually accurate. I doubt anyone is going to quit mainline to go to Swoop, but some people may have been interested in the LOA.
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Dizzy D
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by Dizzy D »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:47 am Westjetters love to tell you about their T4. And while I agree, money is money, I am interested in the actual salary.
Of course we do! We are T4 rich and cash poor, the T4 makes us look better. Especially on forums, so be quiet before everyone finds out.
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Re: CIRB Decision

Post by DropTanks »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:47 am Westjetters love to tell you about their T4. And while I agree, money is money, I am interested in the actual salary.
I don’t understand your statement. Do you want to know the actual salary or not? Posting my T4’s isn’t about boasting but rather getting facts straight.
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