Everyday at WJ : union busting

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: Sulako, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia

Post Reply
GAF
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:43 pm

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by GAF »

With reference to an RNP approach, it’s easier rather than harder than an NDB approach, so let’s call that one a win for the pilots.



Yup. Sure. Just like all those RNP short gate approaches guys are doing info Yyc...... to the wrong parallel runway. There is much more programming to get to the RNP approach. More chance for mistakes if you're fatigued. NDB approaches were much more straightforward.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cloak
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by cloak »

Programming the wrong thing can happen with any technology, but surely when fatigued flying an RNP approach is easier and safer than an NDB approach.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mostly Harmless
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:10 am
Location: Betelgeuse

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by Mostly Harmless »

Realitychex wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:49 pm
That being said, management is now running a vastly more complex business than was the case almost 15 years ago when I was there. One can quibble about compensation issues, but I'll guarantee they would be unable to recruit anyone of any caliber paying them anything close to what the comp levels were in 2003, (in the mid $200k range as I recall).

Yes, the 737-Max is a more complex machine than the -200, as is the 767 and as will be the 787. I don't know the details, but pay rates have significantly changed over the years. I suspect the 767 and 787 rates are and will be higher still to compensate for capacity and the lifestyle changes resulting from long haul operations.

But also keep in mind that the complexity and responsibilities of running an organization with 13,000 people, 150 aircraft (with 3 aircraft types), and annual revenues of around $4b is quite different than 15 years ago when WJ had 44 aircraft operating largely domestically, 3,400 employees and revenues of about $860m.

In other words, and without wanting to sound contrite, the job of flying a 737 around North America hasn't changed much. It carries the same level of technical expertise and responsibility as it always has had. The job of airline management, ALL airline management, has dramatically changed over the years. I'd bet they'd love to run a 44 tail aircraft fleet and have to deal with just 3,400 people. But that's not how it works in the real world.

The job is infinitely more complex and stressful, and has to be compensated as such, whether you or I like it or not.

If you don't think that amounts to much, take a look at the pics of WJ senior execs in 1996 and again 5 years later. We all looked like we'd aged 15 years. And that was running, in hindsight, a business a fraction as complex as what's been done today.

If you'd like to earn senior executive money, and take senior executive responsibility, I'm sure the door is open.
Ah yes, the "everyone else has an easy job but me" argument that "only an executive creates wealth" and all the actual people who do the work and serve the customer are a cost not an asset. That is a level of cognitive disconnect that boarders on insanity or a good dose of megalomania. Senior executives are not the only skilled workers in the world.

I am not arguing that all jobs pay an equal amount of money because not all jobs are equal. I am arguing two things: Executive pay is out of line with reality and results and, if you are going to call yourself a leader, you'd bloody well better be the one setting the example.

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay ... e-earners/
http://graphics.wsj.com/ceopay-2015/
https://hbr.org/1990/05/ceo-incentives- ... ay-but-how
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopat ... _workplace
---------- ADS -----------
  

WeedPro2000
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 177
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:13 am

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by WeedPro2000 »

Flyingsquirrelsuck wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:10 pm
How about the company stoping funding for PAT after we certified?

Westjet needs this union more than the pilots.
Flyingsquirrelsuck said: How about the company stoping funding for PAT after we certified? (PAT=Pilot Assistance Team)

From the Other section of FAQ's at wjpilotfacts.com:

Question: Did WestJet stop funding the pilot assistance program that paid for pilots to attend treatment centres for various addiction related issues? (Added on April 18,2018)

No, this claim is false. WestJet has always shown a strong history of supporting the Pilot Support Network, and has allowed its component programs to flourish and develop into some of the best in the industry.

I am told this claim that WJ had ceased funding the PAT and things like treatment center attendance ($25,000+) was made by the lead ALPA negotiator, GF, at an ALPA meeting back in November (IIRC) in Calgary. From what a person in attendance told me, GF said words to the effect, "If WJ cares so much about the pilots, why did they cease funding the PAT?"

Now you know WJ's version of that claim.


Bis dann,

Der FlugelAnzugMeister
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
J Roc
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:45 pm

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by J Roc »

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:49 pm
Flyingsquirrelsuck wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:10 pm
How about the company stoping funding for PAT after we certified?

Westjet needs this union more than the pilots.
Flyingsquirrelsuck said: How about the company stoping funding for PAT after we certified? (PAT=Pilot Assistance Team)

From the Other section of FAQ's at wjpilotfacts.com:

Question: Did WestJet stop funding the pilot assistance program that paid for pilots to attend treatment centres for various addiction related issues? (Added on April 18,2018)

No, this claim is false. WestJet has always shown a strong history of supporting the Pilot Support Network, and has allowed its component programs to flourish and develop into some of the best in the industry.

I am told this claim that WJ had ceased funding the PAT and things like treatment center attendance ($25,000+) was made by the lead ALPA negotiator, GF, at an ALPA meeting back in November (IIRC) in Calgary. From what a person in attendance told me, GF said words to the effect, "If WJ cares so much about the pilots, why did they cease funding the PAT?"

Now you know WJ's version of that claim.


Bis dann,

Der FlugelAnzugMeister
I'm curious, but was "addiction and recovery treatment" the only program that fell under the umbrella of the PSN???
---------- ADS -----------
  

Flyingsquirrelsuck
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:14 pm

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck »

WeedPro2000 wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:49 pm
Flyingsquirrelsuck wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:10 pm
How about the company stoping funding for PAT after we certified?

Westjet needs this union more than the pilots.
Flyingsquirrelsuck said: How about the company stoping funding for PAT after we certified? (PAT=Pilot Assistance Team)

From the Other section of FAQ's at wjpilotfacts.com:

Question: Did WestJet stop funding the pilot assistance program that paid for pilots to attend treatment centres for various addiction related issues? (Added on April 18,2018)

No, this claim is false. WestJet has always shown a strong history of supporting the Pilot Support Network, and has allowed its component programs to flourish and develop into some of the best in the industry.

I am told this claim that WJ had ceased funding the PAT and things like treatment center attendance ($25,000+) was made by the lead ALPA negotiator, GF, at an ALPA meeting back in November (IIRC) in Calgary. From what a person in attendance told me, GF said words to the effect, "If WJ cares so much about the pilots, why did they cease funding the PAT?"

Now you know WJ's version of that claim.


Bis dann,

Der FlugelAnzugMeister
Well John. In short time you and the WJ pilots will find out the real truth about funding PAT.

Are you going to deny WJ doesn’t lie to it’s pilot group?

WJpilotfacts.com is completely full of lies and misinformation. You should consider realigning your interests to the pilot group and the the CEO and the BOD. They are the ones that are looking out for your future
---------- ADS -----------
  

AnotherUselessPilot
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:52 pm

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by AnotherUselessPilot »

Did some research on this "JS".
Perhaps he's not actually such a bad guy: viewtopic.php?t=6440
Not sure why he has 5 different accounts here though.
I can't tell if he's trolling or genuinely believes in what he's saying.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pilotidentity
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:00 am

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by pilotidentity »

Who is this Weed pro John guy? Reading this thread as one who has no connection to WestJet my first impression is to say I feel lucky I can live life without being forced to fly with a pilot who is so distracted. Perhaps he is a good person and he is a pleasure to be around? How do I really know? It doesn't matter to me, I wish him well and apologize to him directly if he really has everyone's best interests at heart. Why are there so many direct responses to John, is he future management? Is he seen as a threat?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 894
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

pilotidentity wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:49 pm
Who is this Weed pro John guy? Reading this thread as one who has no connection to WestJet my first impression is to say I feel lucky I can live life without being forced to fly with a pilot who is so distracted. Perhaps he is a good person and he is a pleasure to be around? How do I really know? It doesn't matter to me, I wish him well and apologize to him directly if he really has everyone's best interests at heart. Why are there so many direct responses to John, is he future management? Is he seen as a threat?
Having shadowed and participated in some threads I've come to respect JS' position but it is anti-union in a company filled with pro-union flight crew so his views tend to grind with some of his colleagues.

I suspect he enjoys some of the notoriety plus he clearly enjoys take home pay boasting, fueled by his overtime bidding which drives his anti union position. Again grinding against most guys. He does that usually when dueling with specific characters on here.

I'm sure he carries an interesting conversation on the flight deck.

S.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
schnitzel2k3
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 894
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Perhaps Boeing will lend a hand to the WS management team and provide 737 pilots to get Swoop up and running.

https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.o ... cerns/amp/

Holy cow.....

S.
---------- ADS -----------
  

North Shore
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5410
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Straight outta Dundarave...

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by North Shore »

...787 guys for $550/day?! Geez, some people come cheap..
experienced pilots willing to fly for client Boeing Pilot Services for $547.95 per day,
---------- ADS -----------
  
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.

The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by The Tenth Man »

grudgingalpamember wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:31 am
WeedPro2000 is not alone. He is only the most vocal of those of us who oppose our current union regime. ALPA is setting up unrealistic expectations by pointing to gains made by Spirit pilots etc.. We make good money, if you grind the old T4 argument you don't understand how you are paid. If you have been at Westjet longer than 3 years you are making more than 80% of tax filers in the country. As a result you pay a lot of tax. If you are dissatisfied you should take it up with the CRA. I joined the company because I liked the fact that everyone was pulling in the same direction. Westjet didn't have the obstructionist infighting and fiefdoms of the union hindered companies. Now we are in a situation where we will probably end up with an imposed contract and ALPA can wash their hands and start collecting dues. Do you want to pay a lot of money for a lot of services you don't need? I give you our future under a union.
grudgingalpamember guessed the outcome all the way back in April 2018.
---------- ADS -----------
  

The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by The Tenth Man »

Bede wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:11 am
countdown wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:44 am
The MEC tells management that they expect all Swoop flying to be done by WJ pilots at WJ hourly rates - and they expect those rates to rise by 30 to 40% with a new contract. Not a great place to start negotiating rates for a ULCC. Swoop flying should have been negotiated as an equipment bid and a step up in salary and aircraft from Encore up through to mainline. The MEC has drawn a line in the sand and we're all going to burn for their stubbornness.
I'm always interested to hear the rationale from the other side, but no one (mostly WeedPro/RottenApple/NCP) ever takes me up on it:

What is your interpretation of s. 10 of our agreement? Does the agreement not state that all flying is to be done by pilots on the WPDL? Does the agreement not define the WPDL? Do we not have an agreement stating pay rates for the B737?

May I ask, if you were on the MEC what would you do in this situation? Would you agree to an LOU setting the Swoop wages at their current level? Would you insist on scope? What would you do if the company didn't agree to your wishes?

I'm 100% with the MEC on this issue as is EVERY pilot (YYZ base) I have flown with (even those that voted no to ALPA).
And countdown sensed a problem with ALPA’s approach.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Liftdump
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 231
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Earth

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by Liftdump »

In 1983 I flew a Cessna 210 for that kind of dough.
---------- ADS -----------
  

flyinhigh
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2585
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:42 pm
Location: my couch

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by flyinhigh »

So you have another handle that you used twice to try and back up your statements. This is getting embarrassing, I am truly feeling bad for you.

I suggest you go meet a nice lady friend. Wine and dine her, and talk about other things than just WestJet or aviation.

FYI, I don't read your useless drivel at all. It maybe relevant but you've lost all credibility with me.

The Tenth Man wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:22 am
grudgingalpamember wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:31 am
WeedPro2000 is not alone. He is only the most vocal of those of us who oppose our current union regime. ALPA is setting up unrealistic expectations by pointing to gains made by Spirit pilots etc.. We make good money, if you grind the old T4 argument you don't understand how you are paid. If you have been at Westjet longer than 3 years you are making more than 80% of tax filers in the country. As a result you pay a lot of tax. If you are dissatisfied you should take it up with the CRA. I joined the company because I liked the fact that everyone was pulling in the same direction. Westjet didn't have the obstructionist infighting and fiefdoms of the union hindered companies. Now we are in a situation where we will probably end up with an imposed contract and ALPA can wash their hands and start collecting dues. Do you want to pay a lot of money for a lot of services you don't need? I give you our future under a union.
grudgingalpamember guessed the outcome all the way back in April 2018.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Alcoholism
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:51 pm

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by Alcoholism »

flyinhigh wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:46 am
So you have another handle that you used twice to try and back up your statements. This is getting embarrassing, I am truly feeling bad for you.

I suggest you go meet a nice lady friend. Wine and dine her, and talk about other things than just WestJet or aviation.

FYI, I don't read your useless drivel at all. It maybe relevant but you've lost all credibility with me.

The Tenth Man wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:22 am
grudgingalpamember wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:31 am
WeedPro2000 is not alone. He is only the most vocal of those of us who oppose our current union regime. ALPA is setting up unrealistic expectations by pointing to gains made by Spirit pilots etc.. We make good money, if you grind the old T4 argument you don't understand how you are paid. If you have been at Westjet longer than 3 years you are making more than 80% of tax filers in the country. As a result you pay a lot of tax. If you are dissatisfied you should take it up with the CRA. I joined the company because I liked the fact that everyone was pulling in the same direction. Westjet didn't have the obstructionist infighting and fiefdoms of the union hindered companies. Now we are in a situation where we will probably end up with an imposed contract and ALPA can wash their hands and start collecting dues. Do you want to pay a lot of money for a lot of services you don't need? I give you our future under a union.
grudgingalpamember guessed the outcome all the way back in April 2018.
The Tenth Man wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:02 pm
Bede wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:11 am
countdown wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:44 am
The MEC tells management that they expect all Swoop flying to be done by WJ pilots at WJ hourly rates - and they expect those rates to rise by 30 to 40% with a new contract. Not a great place to start negotiating rates for a ULCC. Swoop flying should have been negotiated as an equipment bid and a step up in salary and aircraft from Encore up through to mainline. The MEC has drawn a line in the sand and we're all going to burn for their stubbornness.
I'm always interested to hear the rationale from the other side, but no one (mostly WeedPro/RottenApple/NCP) ever takes me up on it:

What is your interpretation of s. 10 of our agreement? Does the agreement not state that all flying is to be done by pilots on the WPDL? Does the agreement not define the WPDL? Do we not have an agreement stating pay rates for the B737?

May I ask, if you were on the MEC what would you do in this situation? Would you agree to an LOU setting the Swoop wages at their current level? Would you insist on scope? What would you do if the company didn't agree to your wishes?

I'm 100% with the MEC on this issue as is EVERY pilot (YYZ base) I have flown with (even those that voted no to ALPA).
And countdown sensed a problem with ALPA’s approach.
---------- ADS -----------
  

The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: Everyday at WJ : union busting

Post by The Tenth Man »

flyinhigh wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:46 am
So you have another handle that you used twice to try and back up your statements. This is getting embarrassing, I am truly feeling bad for you.

I suggest you go meet a nice lady friend. Wine and dine her, and talk about other things than just WestJet or aviation.

FYI, I don't read your useless drivel at all. It maybe relevant but you've lost all credibility with me.
What a self-centric view of the world you must have to think that in the slightest, teensy-weensiest way, any of my postings (absent this one) were directed at you, or meant for your consumption, much less your comprehension of the pertinent issues.

And the fact that you thought that I might somehow be emtionionally harmed by your claim that you will no longer read my posts, well, how powerful do you think you are? My emotions are under my control, not yours.

The truth, as I see it, is that you are simply unable to rebut any of the issues, are angered by these same issues, and like a child of two, you are performing the anonymous Internet forum stunt equivalent of holding your breath until you turn blue, in hopes that some adult will tend to your feelings.

The more mature approach might have been just to stop reading my posts. A millennial approach is to tell everyone you’ve stopped reading my posts.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”