Time to Stand Firm

[WeedPro2000]

“WestJet has expressed to us directly and through the conciliators that they would like to extend the conciliation period. In fact, they have attached extension of conciliation as a condition to adding bargaining dates."

The conciliation period is designed to put pressure on Management to come to the bargaining table. If Westjet respected their pilots they would be at the table now…not looking for extra time to strategize. This is your opportunity to use the Canadian Labour laws, your union and your resolve to get the deal you deserve – it’s time to be treated fairly! Do not extend the conciliation period...it's your time to Stand Firm!

Another interpretation of ALPA’s refusal to extend the conciliation date is that, similar to the Austrian-Hungarian empure’s demands to Serbia in July 1914 (most unpalatable was the participation of A.-H. officials in the required Serbian investigation of anti-monarchist organizations) this ensures that the negotiations fail.

If the negotiation fails, this creates the conditions for a summer time organized protest and associated work stoppage, whereas extending conciliation might delay the possible work slow down to a less effective time period.

Also, a mediated contract of whatever form, relieves the union of the high expectations that they have created in the memberships of large contract increases. They can always later claim that “their hands were tied” by the process (that they engendered).

If they were given more time to negotiate, as the conciliators recommended, they would have no cover under which to hide. Whatever shortcomings in the first CBA, they would have all been on ALPA.

Additionally, a speeded up process, though it might not get the best CBA for the members, has the advantage of getting “a” CBA in place, which then starts the flow of dues from WJ ALPA MEC to Herndon, VA.

I’m not a member, so my opinion should be taken for what it’s worth, but were it me, I’d want to know what exactly I’m supposed to strike over before I picked up a sign.

For instance, has ALPA secured agreement with WestJet on section 22 Seniority yet? Scheduling? Swoop? Pay? What exactly is left to negotiate?

In diversity, meinen Genossen,

Herr VierTausendSiebenHundertNeunundNeunzig

[avtutor]

The issue the MEC negotiations team is prioritizing is bigger than just Swoop; it is broad SCOPE language to protect all of us (including your lucrative OT)in the event management wants to go forth and create other alter ego airlines or CPAs with other carriers.

There are ALPA negotiation update meetings coming up where you can attend and ask these and other questions. Doesn’t matter if you are a member; you are a WS pilot who will be affected and have the right to be heard.

Come out and speak up.

[Mach1]

Another interpretation of ALPA’s refusal to extend the conciliation date is that, similar to the Austrian-Hungarian empure’s demands to Serbia in July 1914 (most unpalatable was the participation of A.-H. officials in the required Serbian investigation of anti-monarchist organizations) this ensures that the negotiations fail.

They will still be facepalming this 300 years from now.

If the negotiation fails, this creates the conditions for a summer time organized protest and associated work stoppage, whereas extending conciliation might delay the possible work slow down to a less effective time period.

Or, the timing is to put as much pressure on the company as possible to stop moving forward with Swoop's launch without WJ pilots in those seats. You know this but denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

Also, a mediated contract of whatever form, relieves the union of the high expectations that they have created in the memberships of large contract increases. They can always later claim that “their hands were tied” by the process (that they engendered).

If they were given more time to negotiate, as the conciliators recommended, they would have no cover under which to hide. Whatever shortcomings in the first CBA, they would have all been on ALPA.

I find it interesting that you only ever appropriate blame on one party. I'm pretty sure there are two parties at a negotiating table and both must accept responsibility for their own behaviours. Unless, of course, you think everything is one sided. Tribalism has been making a real comeback lately.

In diversity, meinen Genossen,

Herr VierTausendSiebenHundertNeunundNeunzig

Interesting that you choose the language most famously associated with Fascism. A message of some sort about your personal way of thinking?

Anyway... You have some good posts, and some bad posts but as far as this one goes, I think Cartman sums it up best

[Go Guns]

It’s not as though WestJet has been squeezed for time with these negotiations, they’ve had over seven months! Perhaps if they made some meaningful headway, say securing Swoop flying for WestJet pilots, WSALPA might be willing to extend conciliation?

[RidersRule]

What are “trip rigs?” Pardon my ignorance.

In a nutshell it's a minimum guarantee of pay for your time away from base.

For example, You might have a hour of pay for every four hours of your trip.

So the 48 hour POS that we have at WestJet is only worth the hours that we fly, since we have no Trip, Duty, or min daily credits. It's about 11 or 12 hours of credit. But if for example, you had a 1:4 trip rig, the 80 hours you are gone on the pairing would be worth about 20 hours.

[WeedPro2000]

I think one shouldn’t shoot for the moon on this agreement. Get something in place so that progress can be made in the coming years.

1) improvement in Years of Service
2) Trip rigs of some sort
3) Slight pay increase

The above would likely suffice, if, additionally,
some means could be found to use WJ/WJE pilots at Swoop, and some sort of scope for Swoop that gives the company flexibility and pilots some guarantees that Swoop won’t mean job loss at WJ.

I think the pension issue should be left for another negotiation, in order to get a deal done. Make it a 3 year agreement.

I think if you push too hard in this agreement it’s going to blow up in your face. You think you have power, and you do, but the unbridled use of that power may lead to unexpected consequences.

The company can’t give the pilots the equivalent of a 44% cost (to the company) increase, which is what I hear was being sought by ALPA. The company is cognizant that FAs could certify and the expectation can’t be a high windfall gain. They might as well take their chance with an arbitrator in a best offer win or die.

Just get a deal that’s liveable and aim for more next time. Stop the strike talk and negotiate.

[Mach1]

I think one shouldn’t shoot for the moon on this agreement. Get something in place so that progress can be made in the coming years.

1) improvement in Years of Service
2) Trip rigs of some sort
3) Slight pay increase

The above would likely suffice, if, additionally,
some means could be found to use WJ/WJE pilots at Swoop, and some sort of scope for Swoop that gives the company flexibility and pilots some guarantees that Swoop won’t mean job loss at WJ.

I think the pension issue should be left for another negotiation, in order to get a deal done. Make it a 3 year agreement.

I think if you push too hard in this agreement it’s going to blow up in your face. You think you have power, and you do, but the unbridled use of that power may lead to unexpected consequences.

The company can’t give the pilots the equivalent of a 44% cost (to the company) increase, which is what I hear was being sought by ALPA. The company is cognizant that FAs could certify and the expectation can’t be a high windfall gain. They might as well take their chance with an arbitrator in a best offer win or die.

Just get a deal that’s liveable and aim for more next time. Stop the strike talk and negotiate.

Since I picked on your last post...

A strong post. Reasonable and thoughtful. Not a wind up.

[avtutor]

Agreed. Good post, and likely a realistic outcome. One point to clarify: the MEC has been available for negotiations every day. It is the company that doesn’t come to the table very often.

[RidersRule]

I think one shouldn’t shoot for the moon on this agreement. Get something in place so that progress can be made in the coming years.

1) improvement in Years of Service
2) Trip rigs of some sort
3) Slight pay increase

The above would likely suffice, if, additionally,
some means could be found to use WJ/WJE pilots at Swoop, and some sort of scope for Swoop that gives the company flexibility and pilots some guarantees that Swoop won’t mean job loss at WJ.

I think the pension issue should be left for another negotiation, in order to get a deal done. Make it a 3 year agreement.

I think if you push too hard in this agreement it’s going to blow up in your face. You think you have power, and you do, but the unbridled use of that power may lead to unexpected consequences.

The company can’t give the pilots the equivalent of a 44% cost (to the company) increase, which is what I hear was being sought by ALPA. The company is cognizant that FAs could certify and the expectation can’t be a high windfall gain. They might as well take their chance with an arbitrator in a best offer win or die.

Just get a deal that’s liveable and aim for more next time. Stop the strike talk and negotiate.

I can agree with most of this post. We're pretty much on the same page.

The STD and LTD premiums are also on my list.

[flyer 1492]

Somehow Weedpro, I don't think you have ever heard of this saying,

You don't get what you deserve....You get what you negotiate.

[WeedPro2000]

I meant to add having the company pay for benefits in my post but got distracted by numerous German words.

Good luck

[Rezy]

I meant to add having the company pay for benefits in my post but got distracted by numerous German words.

Good luck

I think we finally brought you around, took awhile, had to make you think it was your own idea, but now you’re finally on the same page as the rest of the WJ pilot group!
Sign a card

[Flyingsquirrelsuck]

I think one shouldn’t shoot for the moon on this agreement. Get something in place so that progress can be made in the coming years.

1) improvement in Years of Service
2) Trip rigs of some sort
3) Slight pay increase

The above would likely suffice, if, additionally,
some means could be found to use WJ/WJE pilots at Swoop, and some sort of scope for Swoop that gives the company flexibility and pilots some guarantees that Swoop won’t mean job loss at WJ.

I think the pension issue should be left for another negotiation, in order to get a deal done. Make it a 3 year agreement.

I think if you push too hard in this agreement it’s going to blow up in your face. You think you have power, and you do, but the unbridled use of that power may lead to unexpected consequences.

The company can’t give the pilots the equivalent of a 44% cost (to the company) increase, which is what I hear was being sought by ALPA. The company is cognizant that FAs could certify and the expectation can’t be a high windfall gain. They might as well take their chance with an arbitrator in a best offer win or die.

Just get a deal that’s liveable and aim for more next time. Stop the strike talk and negotiate.

John, with all due respect, why do we need to settle for a “good enough” or “just get it done” contract and get more next time ideology?

That’s what we have done for years. We are a proven employee group, hard working, loyal and engaged.

Our YOS is a joke, how is our fatigue management FRMS program coming along? Our company says/promises one thing, then dose the opposite.

This is about respect

1:1 YOS
Min daily credit
RIGS
ST and LTD payments
Proper scheduling
SCOPE

These are the starting points John. The company since September has NEVER brought a proposal to the bargaining table. The company has brought our pilots to consiliation and possibility a work interruption.

It’s time to bring our group to a industry standard. There is nothing wrong with that demand.

[WeedPro2000]

John, with all due respect, why do we need to settle for a “good enough” or “just get it done” contract and get more next time ideology?

That’s what we have done for years. We are a proven employee group, hard working, loyal and engaged.

Our YOS is a joke, how is our fatigue management FRMS program coming along? Our company says/promises one thing, then dose the opposite.

This is about respect

1:1 YOS
Min daily credit
RIGS
ST and LTD payments
Proper scheduling
SCOPE

These are the starting points John. The company since September has NEVER brought a proposal to the bargaining table. The company has brought our pilots to consiliation and possibility a work interruption.

It’s time to bring our group to a industry standard. There is nothing wrong with that demand.

Hi Squirrel. In my 20+ years as an airline employee, "industry standard" means failed airlines. Three failed airlines. If what you are suggesting is removing competitiveness and flexibility from your airline, well, thar be dragons.

I'm not sure how your mental health is, but perhaps you should look into that if you want a contract to bring you "respect". That is just a very odd statement to make. You sound like the LGBTQ community who want to force me to give them "respect" by using one of 29+ pronouns like "ze" and "zir". WTF? And I don't think anyone can be forced to show you respect via the terms (financial or otherwise) of a contract. Come to think of it, if you want my respect, from on "known" person to one "anonymous" poster on a public internet forum, why don't you go back to your post and clean up the grammar and syntax? I'd appreciate that. The edit finction works fine on this forum. If english is not your primary language, then I apologize. My German written and spoken composition would be worse than your English so, so there's that.

And I'm not sure what "proper" scheduling" means, outside of some form of min daily credit per day. Could you clarify? The same for "RIGS" as you call them; is that the same as some form of min daily credit?

And to answer your question about getting a contract, well, my perspective is probably different from yours. Not everything needs to, or will be addressed in this agreement. Especially if it goes to Final Offer Selection. Negotiate reasonable improvements now, and work on more next time. If the sum total of all your desired work conditions represents an immediate 30-40% increase in pilot labour costs to the company, well, good luck with that.

[Benwa]

Come to think of it, if you want my respect, from on "known" person to one "anonymous" poster on a public internet forum, why don't you go back to your post and clean up the grammar and syntax? I'd appreciate that. The edit finction works fine on this forum.

Didn't proof read before hitting Submit John ?

[aerobod]

A more conventional contract could be achieved by moving ESPP, RSUs and Stock Options to base wage - 40% base pay increase but virtually no company performance incentives, much the same as the average airline.

[WeedPro2000]

And if, as YVR lurker suggests, that ALPA would be looking for 25-30% per hour pay increase, above and beyond things like better YOS and and a min credit per day, then that is destined for failure, and could only be seen as a means to force a failed negotiation, and a resulting strike vote.

The MEC published survey of US carriers has brought expectations to an unrealistic point. But I think that was the purpose. Make the pilots feel underpaid, and make them angry. Force them to want a strike, because there was no way that ALPA was ever going to honour the promises they made to the pilot group during the certification drive. Expectations are way too high.

If a pension is off the table, then I think what the companhy would submit under a Final Offer Selection scenario would be something like I suggested above. An improvement to YOS (not 1:1), an improvement to min credit per day, company paid benefits premiums, and a modest 5-10 per cent increase in pay the first year, and something in the 3-5 percent range in the second and third years. An arbitrator is going to look at the T4's of this pilot group and will immediately realize that we are not underpaid. We just have some pilots who have cash flow/cash management problems.

Additionally, the company will likely offer some kind of deal with Swoop that would see our pilots with access to the Swoop flight deck. What that looks like, who knows.

That's how I see it.

[mbav8r]

And if, as YVR lurker suggests, that ALPA would be looking for 25-30% per hour pay increase, above and beyond things like better YOS and and a min credit per day, then that is destined for failure, and could only be seen as a means to force a failed negotiation, and a resulting strike vote.

The MEC published survey of US carriers has brought expectations to an unrealistic point. But I think that was the purpose. Make the pilots feel underpaid, and make them angry. Force them to want a strike, because there was no way that ALPA was ever going to honour the promises they made to the pilot group during the certification drive. Expectations are way too high.

If a pension is off the table, then I think what the companhy would submit under a Final Offer Selection scenario would be something like I suggested above. An improvement to YOS (not 1:1), an improvement to min credit per day, company paid benefits premiums, and a modest 5-10 per cent increase in pay the first year, and something in the 3-5 percent range in the second and third years. An arbitrator is going to look at the T4's of this pilot group and will immediately realize that we are not underpaid. We just have some pilots who have cash flow/cash management problems.

Additionally, the company will likely offer some kind of deal with Swoop that would see our pilots with access to the Swoop flight deck. What that looks like, who knows.

That's how I see it.

Weedpro, a couple questions if you don’t mind and maybe a comment or two.
First, how is it you think that you will end up with final offer selection?
My opinion on that, when it was forced on ACPA, there was a majority PC government, now you have a union friendly NDP majority and I doubt much appetite to go against their long held values.
Do you realize in bargaining when you start at 5-10% year 1 and 3-5% 2nd and 3rd year, what you’ll end up with is half or less?
My opinion, you do know that and this is you negotiating on behalf of the company.
T4s don’t pay the bills, money in your pocket does this.
I’m just an innocent bystander who’s been Swooped by SR and GGN, you’re completely delusional if you don’t think that is what’s going on. It’ll start with a bit of work, just some “underperforming” routes and one day you’ll wake up, Swoop will be the same size as the much smaller mainline, possibly applying for 787 on the OC and many of your colleagues are held back or forced to transfer, then what.
Last question, can you not learn from others mistakes?
Anyhow, best of luck to you guys

[tbaylx]

And if, as YVR lurker suggests, that ALPA would be looking for 25-30% per hour pay increase, above and beyond things like better YOS and and a min credit per day, then that is destined for failure, and could only be seen as a means to force a failed negotiation, and a resulting strike vote.

The MEC published survey of US carriers has brought expectations to an unrealistic point. But I think that was the purpose. Make the pilots feel underpaid, and make them angry. Force them to want a strike, because there was no way that ALPA was ever going to honour the promises they made to the pilot group during the certification drive. Expectations are way too high.

If a pension is off the table, then I think what the companhy would submit under a Final Offer Selection scenario would be something like I suggested above. An improvement to YOS (not 1:1), an improvement to min credit per day, company paid benefits premiums, and a modest 5-10 per cent increase in pay the first year, and something in the 3-5 percent range in the second and third years. An arbitrator is going to look at the T4's of this pilot group and will immediately realize that we are not underpaid. We just have some pilots who have cash flow/cash management problems.

Additionally, the company will likely offer some kind of deal with Swoop that would see our pilots with access to the Swoop flight deck. What that looks like, who knows.

That's how I see it.

Weedpro, a couple questions if you don’t mind and maybe a comment or two.
First, how is it you think that you will end up with final offer selection?
My opinion on that, when it was forced on ACPA, there was a majority PC government, now you have a union friendly NDP majority and I doubt much appetite to go against their long held values.
Do you realize in bargaining when you start at 5-10% year 1 and 3-5% 2nd and 3rd year, what you’ll end up with is half or less?
My opinion, you do know that and this is you negotiating on behalf of the company.
T4s don’t pay the bills, money in your pocket does this.
I’m just an innocent bystander who’s been Swooped by SR and GGN, you’re completely delusional if you don’t think that is what’s going on. It’ll start with a bit of work, just some “underperforming” routes and one day you’ll wake up, Swoop will be the same size as the much smaller mainline, possibly applying for 787 on the OC and many of your colleagues are held back or forced to transfer, then what.
Last question, can you not learn from others mistakes?
Anyhow, best of luck to you guys

It's not a provincially regulated industry. There isn't any federal NDP majority, though i'd concede the Trudeau liberals are left leaning. Either way it's legislated back to work and a imposed contract regardless of PC majority or not.
His point is that if you think you can get a 30% cost increase to the company negotiated in then you ought to consider what exactly a Pyrrhic victory is and if that's really a good plan. He makes a good point that perhaps the MEC ought to be careful in setting unrealistic expectations.

[mbav8r]

You’re correct, I’m not really sure what made me think it was NDP, either way I doubt they would legislate them back to work, what possible justification could they give, cheap airfare? Well I guess I just answered my own question, of course anything for a cheap trip.