Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

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J Roc
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by J Roc »

tincanflyer wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:30 pm
Not sure why at every airline I have worked at, Pilots think they are all at the top of turd island and should always get top dollar and be looked at as the highest level as of everyone in the company. Tough sh!t. Put your head down and do your job. You don’t like it, Go else where. You want to turn WJ into AC, f-ck that. Go to big red. You are a pilot...... a freak’n sky bus driver. Hit your switches and shut your mouth. You are wrecking our company and you are a pilot. A stick jockey. Pull up and be quiet. L@sers! Go picket in your little bitty b!tch pilot hats.
Such bold statements hold zero credibility when you hide behind an anonymous internet handle. Take some ownership for your scathing criticism, otherwise, you come across as a spineless little sh!t having a temper tantrum.

Man up or shut up...with all due respect, of course.

J RO
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WJADXPR
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by WJADXPR »

As a WestJet Dispatcher I think we can all relate to the concernes brought forward. As a dispatcher we undergo annual exams, recurrent training, FAM Flights, and follow Transport Canada Regulations that govern our profession. We share operational control with the Captain, and share responsibility when things happen. Although not a pilot, we can understand your concerns. My challenge is I can never be in favor of a strike. Our passengers are not at fault here. I know that leaves few other options, however in today's world hurting the paying public is not the way. I suggest forgetting to use the POS when sales occur onboard, closing the doors late, pull into gate late if need be.... These impact revenue but will still get the passenger where they need to be.

I have a great deal of respect for my flight crews, please understand that. You are our colleagues, and we work closely together. Remember more good will come out of the storm if everyone is rowing in the same direction. We want WestJet to succeed and that starts with all of us. Respecting each other's roles and responsibilities. Understanding everyone's opinions.

To whomever made the derogatory comments about our pilots, take time to educate yourself before commenting.
What do you plan on achieving by making the comments you made?

I look forward to building on the positive relationship I have with my Pilots. Please continue to call in and say hi. I will always provide the highest level of professionalism to you everyday. Although I can understand your position, also understand there is much nervousness and anxiety in relation to what has transpired.
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Flyingsquirrelsuck
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Flyingsquirrelsuck »

tincanflyer wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:30 pm
Not sure why at every airline I have worked at, Pilots think they are all at the top of turd island and should always get top dollar and be looked at as the highest level as of everyone in the company. Tough sh!t. Put your head down and do your job. You don’t like it, Go else where. You want to turn WJ into AC, f-ck that. Go to big red. You are a pilot...... a freak’n sky bus driver. Hit your switches and shut your mouth. You are wrecking our company and you are a pilot. A stick jockey. Pull up and be quiet. L@sers! Go picket in your little bitty b!tch pilot hats.
Probably not even a pilot. Maybe has a computer simulator at home and can do a sweet ILS approach into LAX and stuff
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FL410AV8R
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by FL410AV8R »

tincanflyer wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:30 pm
Not sure why at every airline I have worked at, Pilots think they are all at the top of turd island and should always get top dollar and be looked at as the highest level as of everyone in the company. Tough sh!t. Put your head down and do your job. You don’t like it, Go else where. You want to turn WJ into AC, f-ck that. Go to big red. You are a pilot...... a freak’n sky bus driver. Hit your switches and shut your mouth. You are wrecking our company and you are a pilot. A stick jockey. Pull up and be quiet. L@sers! Go picket in your little bitty b!tch pilot hats.
Run along and make another gingerbread house, jealous little office person.
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jjj
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by jjj »

Wait until Tincan wants my jump seat from YHZ to YYC.

He’ll have a much lighter tone methinks.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by jjj »

Tincan,

By all means post your opinion on Yammer.

JJJ
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Bede
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Bede »

tincanflyer wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:30 pm
Not sure why at every airline I have worked at, Pilots think they are all at the top of turd island and should always get top dollar and be looked at as the highest level as of everyone in the company.
Philosophically, I'm an egalitarian, but given the tone of your post I'll indulge your rhetorical question. Why do pilots think that they should get top dollar? Simple. Because without pilots nothing happens. We can play a little thought game: You do my job for a day and I'll do yours. Then let's talk body count.

It's no different for surgeons: they can screw up their way through a nursing job and no one dies, but if a nurse tries doing surgery...
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mbav8r
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by mbav8r »

WJADXPR wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:48 am
As a WestJet Dispatcher I think we can all relate to the concernes brought forward. As a dispatcher we undergo annual exams, recurrent training, FAM Flights, and follow Transport Canada Regulations that govern our profession. We share operational control with the Captain, and share responsibility when things happen. Although not a pilot, we can understand your concerns. My challenge is I can never be in favor of a strike. Our passengers are not at fault here. I know that leaves few other options, however in today's world hurting the paying public is not the way. I suggest forgetting to use the POS when sales occur onboard, closing the doors late, pull into gate late if need be.... These impact revenue but will still get the passenger where they need to be.

I have a great deal of respect for my flight crews, please understand that. You are our colleagues, and we work closely together. Remember more good will come out of the storm if everyone is rowing in the same direction. We want WestJet to succeed and that starts with all of us. Respecting each other's roles and responsibilities. Understanding everyone's opinions.

To whomever made the derogatory comments about our pilots, take time to educate yourself before commenting.
What do you plan on achieving by making the comments you made?

I look forward to building on the positive relationship I have with my Pilots. Please continue to call in and say hi. I will always provide the highest level of professionalism to you everyday. Although I can understand your position, also understand there is much nervousness and anxiety in relation to what has transpired.
WJADXPR, while it is well known i don’t work for WJ, I do have a somewhat vested interest in WJ pilots achieving a industry leading contract and while you say you understand the situation I’m not sure you really do.
First off your suggestions will undoubtedly send a message but not an immediate message which is needed right now because once Swoop is running it will be too late. A message such as strong vote for strike, remember it’s a vote not an actual strike and the level of support will generate the appropriate amount of gains based on that support.
Next, have you been asked to dispatch the 40 Swoop tails for 30-40% less pay or is this going to cause you to forego that move up the ladder indefinitely, essentially delaying a big bump in pay because maybe someone else is doing your job for less at Swoop?
If you can answer yes to those questions you have somewhat of an idea but not really because I have no doubt this is likely your first dispatching job and it didn’t take you 10 years slugging it out at less than desirable jobs to get there and you really can’t grasp what it would be like to contemplate starting over at another airline for a pilot.
Tincan, it appears as though someone knows who you are and I suspect word will get around about what you really think about pilots, should make for some interesting days at work, might want to consider moving on. Good luck with your new ventures
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squawk
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by squawk »

FL410AV8R wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:32 am
tincanflyer wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:30 pm
Not sure why at every airline I have worked at, Pilots think they are all at the top of turd island and should always get top dollar and be looked at as the highest level as of everyone in the company. Tough sh!t. Put your head down and do your job. You don’t like it, Go else where. You want to turn WJ into AC, f-ck that. Go to big red. You are a pilot...... a freak’n sky bus driver. Hit your switches and shut your mouth. You are wrecking our company and you are a pilot. A stick jockey. Pull up and be quiet. L@sers! Go picket in your little bitty b!tch pilot hats.
Run along and make another gingerbread house, jealous little office person.
Yep. He is defiantly not a pilot.
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Mach1
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Mach1 »

WJADXPR wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:48 am
As a WestJet Dispatcher I think we can all relate to the concernes brought forward. As a dispatcher we undergo annual exams, recurrent training, FAM Flights, and follow Transport Canada Regulations that govern our profession. We share operational control with the Captain, and share responsibility when things happen. Although not a pilot, we can understand your concerns. My challenge is I can never be in favor of a strike. Our passengers are not at fault here. I know that leaves few other options, however in today's world hurting the paying public is not the way. I suggest forgetting to use the POS when sales occur onboard, closing the doors late, pull into gate late if need be.... These impact revenue but will still get the passenger where they need to be.
Thank you for the support. Much appreciated. The strike vote is, in MHO, all about Swoop... everything else can be negotiated.

Unfortunately, Swoop is not just a pilot problem, not just a WestJet problem, not even just an industry problem. Swoop has huge implications for all labour in Canada. If this gets through, any company in Canada has a road map to just start New Corp. 2.0 and half the wages of the workers. Breaking every trade union in Canada. While this only effects the pilots and flight attendants of WJ at this time, be aware of the road the company is about to embark on. Through the sheer magic of paperwork, the costs of maintenance, support, dispatching, etc., will all be on WJ's books. Swoop will be hugely profitable... because the costs will all be on the WJ ledger, the profits on the Swoop ledger. This will allow the company to move more and more tails and work to the new company. Eventually, all labour groups in the company will become too expensive, and that includes all the people who work in the office no matter what roll you have. Your jobs will slowly but surely be moved to the new company at 40% of what you currently make... but they won't be your jobs anymore. They will lay you off and hire new off the street people for the "completely separate" company that they claim Swoop is. Eventually, WJ is a shell of it's former self while Swoop has all our jobs and business. Just read up on Gregg's favourite example he was inspired by, Jetstar. So, while no one wants a strike, if this is allowed to proceed as planned, the danger is that all of us wind up out of work, applying for our exact same jobs in the exact same equipment/building at significantly reduced wages while the executives issue massive congratulatory bonuses to themselves. Now, I don't begrudge the executives making money but I do not accept them taking money away from me to give it to themselves. I only write this so that everyone understands what is at stake here... the pilots are not just fighting for the pilots. We stand for the whole company. Sadly, we just happen to be the tip of the sword.
WJADXPR wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:48 am
I have a great deal of respect for my flight crews, please understand that. You are our colleagues, and we work closely together. Remember more good will come out of the storm if everyone is rowing in the same direction. We want WestJet to succeed and that starts with all of us. Respecting each other's roles and responsibilities. Understanding everyone's opinions.

I look forward to building on the positive relationship I have with my Pilots. Please continue to call in and say hi. I will always provide the highest level of professionalism to you everyday. Although I can understand your position, also understand there is much nervousness and anxiety in relation to what has transpired.
Right back at you. I hope that we don't have to strike. But if we do, I hope you understand it's a country wide issue that WJ has placed upon our shoulders and I hope you can support us, and yourself, through these difficult times.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Bede »

WJDXPR,

Thanks for the constructive comments. I don't want a strike either, but like Mach1 said, this is all about swoop. We have a "legally binding agreement " (Gregg's words) that the company clearly breached. The necessity (or lack thereof) of breaching said contract is irrelevant. If the company has good reasons for changing our scope language, then they can negotiate.

If not for swoop I don't think that I would have voted for a strike. I like our agreement. It may need a few changes but I'm generally happy.

Swoop was a shot across the bow to us. After us, it's others next. You may be keeping your wages but once the economies of scale pick up, they'll look to move your jobs over there too.

This company successfully turned people who would have done everything for the company into people willing to shut the place down.
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RidersRule
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by RidersRule »

[quote=Bede post_id=1039355 time=1525907108 user_id=839

This company successfully turned people who would have done everything for the company into people willing to shut the place down.
[/quote]

Bingo. Just said the exact same thing to a friend today. The took the most loyal, hardest working pilot group and flipped it on its head. Took one of their most valuable assets, the culture, and crushed it overnight.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by squawk »

RidersRule wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 4:57 pm
[quote=Bede post_id=<a href="tel:1039355">1039355</a> time=<a href="tel:1525907108">1525907108</a> user_id=839

This company successfully turned people who would have done everything for the company into people willing to shut the place down.
Bingo. Just said the exact same thing to a friend today. The took the most loyal, hardest working pilot group and flipped it on its head. Took one of their most valuable assets, the culture, and crushed it overnight.
[/quote]
RidersRule wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 4:57 pm
[quote=Bede post_id=1039355 time=1525907108 user_id=839

This company successfully turned people who would have done everything for the company into people willing to shut the place down.
Bingo. Just said the exact same thing to a friend today. The took the most loyal, hardest working pilot group and flipped it on its head. Took one of their most valuable assets, the culture, and crushed it overnight.
[/quote]

I respect your views. Whole hardedly. That’s what we are all about. Please respect the opinions of those who bleed teal patriotically. I hope this all comes to a resolution fairly quickly.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by cloak »

Mach1 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 2:31 pm
....
Unfortunately, Swoop is not just a pilot problem, not just a WestJet problem, not even just an industry problem. Swoop has huge implications for all labour in Canada. If this gets through, any company in Canada has a road map to just start New Corp. 2.0 and half the wages of the workers. Breaking every trade union in Canada.
....
This IS ALREADY happening in various industries with corporations targeting different segments of the industry with different companies, Loblaws and No Frills; Metro and Food Basics; Canadian Tire...the list goes on. WestJet is doing the same to close the back door to its market share because otherwise they feel other airlines like Flair, Jetlines, etc. will erode their market share...It's like adding another company for that segment of the market while still growing the current company and making it really international, etc. That's their plan...
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by RidersRule »

squawk wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:14 pm
RidersRule wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 4:57 pm
[quote=Bede post_id=<a href="tel:1039355">1039355</a> time=<a href="tel:1525907108">1525907108</a> user_id=839

This company successfully turned people who would have done everything for the company into people willing to shut the place down.
Bingo. Just said the exact same thing to a friend today. The took the most loyal, hardest working pilot group and flipped it on its head. Took one of their most valuable assets, the culture, and crushed it overnight.
RidersRule wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 4:57 pm
[quote=Bede post_id=1039355 time=1525907108 user_id=839

This company successfully turned people who would have done everything for the company into people willing to shut the place down.
Bingo. Just said the exact same thing to a friend today. The took the most loyal, hardest working pilot group and flipped it on its head. Took one of their most valuable assets, the culture, and crushed it overnight.
[/quote]

I respect your views. Whole hardedly. That’s what we are all about. Please respect the opinions of those who bleed teal patriotically. I hope this all comes to a resolution fairly quickly.
[/quote]

For sure Squawk,

I've been a loyal 10 year employee and I am having a hard time understanding how a company that I also bled teel over as well could stab me in the back with Swoop while I am comutting from out west to YYZ with no chance of getting back if Swoop gets off the ground.

My wife literally said the other day...

"Why don't you just quit. It's not worth it"

I told her we'll see how this shakes out first and maybe looking at downgrading to the 87 out of Calgary. All so some Swoop pilots can have my left seat out west for 60 cents on the dollar. It's disheartening
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Dry Guy
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Dry Guy »

Just to play the devil's advocate here, does having a loyal group of pilots really matter at a unionized company? There is a contract that will be negotiated that both the pilots and management must followed to the letter.

You guys are all saying that management needs to know that you're not going to be their friends anymore. You won't go the extra mile. That they've lost your loyalty. It actually seems seems they already know this quite well. It's the pilots that need to come to accept that's how it is.
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pilotidentity
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by pilotidentity »

Believe it or not, yes, you can have a loyal group of unionized pilots that want the best for the Company. That is what a good contract is all about. That is why there will be an agreement reached that satisfies both sides. It makes the most sense over the long term.
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FL410AV8R
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by FL410AV8R »

cloak wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:49 pm
Mach1 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 2:31 pm
....
Unfortunately, Swoop is not just a pilot problem, not just a WestJet problem, not even just an industry problem. Swoop has huge implications for all labour in Canada. If this gets through, any company in Canada has a road map to just start New Corp. 2.0 and half the wages of the workers. Breaking every trade union in Canada.
....
This IS ALREADY happening in various industries with corporations targeting different segments of the industry with different companies, Loblaws and No Frills; Metro and Food Basics; Canadian Tire...the list goes on. WestJet is doing the same to close the back door to its market share because otherwise they feel other airlines like Flair, Jetlines, etc. will erode their market share...It's like adding another company for that segment of the market while still growing the current company and making it really international, etc. That's their plan...
Firstly comparing grocery store chains to airlines is quite a leap but if you must go there, I don't believe the employees at No Frills make 40% less than their undoubtedly underpaid counterparts at Loblaws.

This isn't about closing the back door on potential competition, it is about reducing pilot costs. They got away with this BS under the previous model but now they have come up against a juggernaut of equal or possibly greater influence than themselves, there is no conduit for supporting their wild assed and unsupported by fact claims that the Swoop experiment will actually be good for anyone other than their own bonuses.

The company has been totally intransigent about anything concerning Swoop, they are not open to modifying their original plan or working with WestJet ALPA pilots in any significant way to mitigate the potential career damage to those on the cusp of upgrade and all those who follow. Because of this, the WestJet pilots have had no option but to play hardball back. Until the strike vote was called there had been zero progress on any CBA articles of any significance, now time is running out. They have had 7 months to get this CBA negotiated and have delayed and obfuscated since the beginning. Between this and the poor Q1 results, the looming pilot shortage and the looming labour strife, this is a crisis (one could say a perfect storm) of WestJet management's own making. They are the ones who are going to have to eat humble pie and get this settled, hopefully they are hungry.
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Transonic
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Transonic »

Dry Guy wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:06 pm
Just to play the devil's advocate here, does having a loyal group of pilots really matter at a unionized company? There is a contract that will be negotiated that both the pilots and management must followed to the letter.
A loyal employee will always strive to be the best version of themselves. They will go above and beyond their duties to help guests, save fuel, contribute to SPOT all while displaying an infectious demeanor of happiness.

Or, you can have grumpy employees who are here to punch in and punch out.

Just compare United Airlines to Delta.
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Last edited by Transonic on Thu May 10, 2018 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Transonic »

cloak wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:49 pm
Mach1 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 2:31 pm
....
Unfortunately, Swoop is not just a pilot problem, not just a WestJet problem, not even just an industry problem. Swoop has huge implications for all labour in Canada. If this gets through, any company in Canada has a road map to just start New Corp. 2.0 and half the wages of the workers. Breaking every trade union in Canada.
....
This IS ALREADY happening in various industries with corporations targeting different segments of the industry with different companies, Loblaws and No Frills; Metro and Food Basics; Canadian Tire...the list goes on. WestJet is doing the same to close the back door to its market share because otherwise they feel other airlines like Flair, Jetlines, etc. will erode their market share...It's like adding another company for that segment of the market while still growing the current company and making it really international, etc. That's their plan...

Keeping to the grocery store analogy, think Loblaws vs loblaw. In 2008, Loblaws (capital L) rebranded stores as loblaw (no captial L or s). The point of the rebrand was to circumvent unionized labour.

All non-network traffic will go to Swoop. How else are they going to save 200 million dollars annually? That goal was set in the December Investor Day and now moved up to be in place by 2020. Remember when Gregg wanted to save 100 million dollars annually? That brought about the "Sweat the Assets" era. The new guys want to do double that.
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