Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Post Reply
jjj
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 12:53 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by jjj » Wed May 09, 2018 11:13 am

Tincan,

By all means post your opinion on Yammer.

JJJ
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Bede
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3090
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Bede » Wed May 09, 2018 11:15 am

tincanflyer wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:30 pm
Not sure why at every airline I have worked at, Pilots think they are all at the top of turd island and should always get top dollar and be looked at as the highest level as of everyone in the company.
Philosophically, I'm an egalitarian, but given the tone of your post I'll indulge your rhetorical question. Why do pilots think that they should get top dollar? Simple. Because without pilots nothing happens. We can play a little thought game: You do my job for a day and I'll do yours. Then let's talk body count.

It's no different for surgeons: they can screw up their way through a nursing job and no one dies, but if a nurse tries doing surgery...
---------- ADS -----------
  

mbav8r
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1941
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by mbav8r » Wed May 09, 2018 1:40 pm

WJADXPR wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:48 am
As a WestJet Dispatcher I think we can all relate to the concernes brought forward. As a dispatcher we undergo annual exams, recurrent training, FAM Flights, and follow Transport Canada Regulations that govern our profession. We share operational control with the Captain, and share responsibility when things happen. Although not a pilot, we can understand your concerns. My challenge is I can never be in favor of a strike. Our passengers are not at fault here. I know that leaves few other options, however in today's world hurting the paying public is not the way. I suggest forgetting to use the POS when sales occur onboard, closing the doors late, pull into gate late if need be.... These impact revenue but will still get the passenger where they need to be.

I have a great deal of respect for my flight crews, please understand that. You are our colleagues, and we work closely together. Remember more good will come out of the storm if everyone is rowing in the same direction. We want WestJet to succeed and that starts with all of us. Respecting each other's roles and responsibilities. Understanding everyone's opinions.

To whomever made the derogatory comments about our pilots, take time to educate yourself before commenting.
What do you plan on achieving by making the comments you made?

I look forward to building on the positive relationship I have with my Pilots. Please continue to call in and say hi. I will always provide the highest level of professionalism to you everyday. Although I can understand your position, also understand there is much nervousness and anxiety in relation to what has transpired.
WJADXPR, while it is well known i don’t work for WJ, I do have a somewhat vested interest in WJ pilots achieving a industry leading contract and while you say you understand the situation I’m not sure you really do.
First off your suggestions will undoubtedly send a message but not an immediate message which is needed right now because once Swoop is running it will be too late. A message such as strong vote for strike, remember it’s a vote not an actual strike and the level of support will generate the appropriate amount of gains based on that support.
Next, have you been asked to dispatch the 40 Swoop tails for 30-40% less pay or is this going to cause you to forego that move up the ladder indefinitely, essentially delaying a big bump in pay because maybe someone else is doing your job for less at Swoop?
If you can answer yes to those questions you have somewhat of an idea but not really because I have no doubt this is likely your first dispatching job and it didn’t take you 10 years slugging it out at less than desirable jobs to get there and you really can’t grasp what it would be like to contemplate starting over at another airline for a pilot.
Tincan, it appears as though someone knows who you are and I suspect word will get around about what you really think about pilots, should make for some interesting days at work, might want to consider moving on. Good luck with your new ventures
---------- ADS -----------
  

squawk
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:23 pm

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by squawk » Wed May 09, 2018 1:49 pm

FL410AV8R wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:32 am
tincanflyer wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:30 pm
Not sure why at every airline I have worked at, Pilots think they are all at the top of turd island and should always get top dollar and be looked at as the highest level as of everyone in the company. Tough sh!t. Put your head down and do your job. You don’t like it, Go else where. You want to turn WJ into AC, f-ck that. Go to big red. You are a pilot...... a freak’n sky bus driver. Hit your switches and shut your mouth. You are wrecking our company and you are a pilot. A stick jockey. Pull up and be quiet. L@sers! Go picket in your little bitty b!tch pilot hats.
Run along and make another gingerbread house, jealous little office person.
Yep. He is defiantly not a pilot.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mach1
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:04 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Mach1 » Wed May 09, 2018 2:31 pm

WJADXPR wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:48 am
As a WestJet Dispatcher I think we can all relate to the concernes brought forward. As a dispatcher we undergo annual exams, recurrent training, FAM Flights, and follow Transport Canada Regulations that govern our profession. We share operational control with the Captain, and share responsibility when things happen. Although not a pilot, we can understand your concerns. My challenge is I can never be in favor of a strike. Our passengers are not at fault here. I know that leaves few other options, however in today's world hurting the paying public is not the way. I suggest forgetting to use the POS when sales occur onboard, closing the doors late, pull into gate late if need be.... These impact revenue but will still get the passenger where they need to be.
Thank you for the support. Much appreciated. The strike vote is, in MHO, all about Swoop... everything else can be negotiated.

Unfortunately, Swoop is not just a pilot problem, not just a WestJet problem, not even just an industry problem. Swoop has huge implications for all labour in Canada. If this gets through, any company in Canada has a road map to just start New Corp. 2.0 and half the wages of the workers. Breaking every trade union in Canada. While this only effects the pilots and flight attendants of WJ at this time, be aware of the road the company is about to embark on. Through the sheer magic of paperwork, the costs of maintenance, support, dispatching, etc., will all be on WJ's books. Swoop will be hugely profitable... because the costs will all be on the WJ ledger, the profits on the Swoop ledger. This will allow the company to move more and more tails and work to the new company. Eventually, all labour groups in the company will become too expensive, and that includes all the people who work in the office no matter what roll you have. Your jobs will slowly but surely be moved to the new company at 40% of what you currently make... but they won't be your jobs anymore. They will lay you off and hire new off the street people for the "completely separate" company that they claim Swoop is. Eventually, WJ is a shell of it's former self while Swoop has all our jobs and business. Just read up on Gregg's favourite example he was inspired by, Jetstar. So, while no one wants a strike, if this is allowed to proceed as planned, the danger is that all of us wind up out of work, applying for our exact same jobs in the exact same equipment/building at significantly reduced wages while the executives issue massive congratulatory bonuses to themselves. Now, I don't begrudge the executives making money but I do not accept them taking money away from me to give it to themselves. I only write this so that everyone understands what is at stake here... the pilots are not just fighting for the pilots. We stand for the whole company. Sadly, we just happen to be the tip of the sword.
WJADXPR wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:48 am
I have a great deal of respect for my flight crews, please understand that. You are our colleagues, and we work closely together. Remember more good will come out of the storm if everyone is rowing in the same direction. We want WestJet to succeed and that starts with all of us. Respecting each other's roles and responsibilities. Understanding everyone's opinions.

I look forward to building on the positive relationship I have with my Pilots. Please continue to call in and say hi. I will always provide the highest level of professionalism to you everyday. Although I can understand your position, also understand there is much nervousness and anxiety in relation to what has transpired.
Right back at you. I hope that we don't have to strike. But if we do, I hope you understand it's a country wide issue that WJ has placed upon our shoulders and I hope you can support us, and yourself, through these difficult times.
---------- ADS -----------
  
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!

User avatar
Bede
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3090
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Bede » Wed May 09, 2018 4:05 pm

WJDXPR,

Thanks for the constructive comments. I don't want a strike either, but like Mach1 said, this is all about swoop. We have a "legally binding agreement " (Gregg's words) that the company clearly breached. The necessity (or lack thereof) of breaching said contract is irrelevant. If the company has good reasons for changing our scope language, then they can negotiate.

If not for swoop I don't think that I would have voted for a strike. I like our agreement. It may need a few changes but I'm generally happy.

Swoop was a shot across the bow to us. After us, it's others next. You may be keeping your wages but once the economies of scale pick up, they'll look to move your jobs over there too.

This company successfully turned people who would have done everything for the company into people willing to shut the place down.
---------- ADS -----------
  

RidersRule
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:21 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by RidersRule » Wed May 09, 2018 4:57 pm

[quote=Bede post_id=1039355 time=1525907108 user_id=839

This company successfully turned people who would have done everything for the company into people willing to shut the place down.
[/quote]

Bingo. Just said the exact same thing to a friend today. The took the most loyal, hardest working pilot group and flipped it on its head. Took one of their most valuable assets, the culture, and crushed it overnight.
---------- ADS -----------
  

squawk
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:23 pm

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by squawk » Wed May 09, 2018 8:14 pm

RidersRule wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 4:57 pm
[quote=Bede post_id=<a href="tel:1039355">1039355</a> time=<a href="tel:1525907108">1525907108</a> user_id=839

This company successfully turned people who would have done everything for the company into people willing to shut the place down.
Bingo. Just said the exact same thing to a friend today. The took the most loyal, hardest working pilot group and flipped it on its head. Took one of their most valuable assets, the culture, and crushed it overnight.
[/quote]
RidersRule wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 4:57 pm
[quote=Bede post_id=1039355 time=1525907108 user_id=839

This company successfully turned people who would have done everything for the company into people willing to shut the place down.
Bingo. Just said the exact same thing to a friend today. The took the most loyal, hardest working pilot group and flipped it on its head. Took one of their most valuable assets, the culture, and crushed it overnight.
[/quote]

I respect your views. Whole hardedly. That’s what we are all about. Please respect the opinions of those who bleed teal patriotically. I hope this all comes to a resolution fairly quickly.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cloak
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by cloak » Wed May 09, 2018 8:49 pm

Mach1 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 2:31 pm
....
Unfortunately, Swoop is not just a pilot problem, not just a WestJet problem, not even just an industry problem. Swoop has huge implications for all labour in Canada. If this gets through, any company in Canada has a road map to just start New Corp. 2.0 and half the wages of the workers. Breaking every trade union in Canada.
....
This IS ALREADY happening in various industries with corporations targeting different segments of the industry with different companies, Loblaws and No Frills; Metro and Food Basics; Canadian Tire...the list goes on. WestJet is doing the same to close the back door to its market share because otherwise they feel other airlines like Flair, Jetlines, etc. will erode their market share...It's like adding another company for that segment of the market while still growing the current company and making it really international, etc. That's their plan...
---------- ADS -----------
  

RidersRule
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:21 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by RidersRule » Wed May 09, 2018 8:57 pm

squawk wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:14 pm
RidersRule wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 4:57 pm
[quote=Bede post_id=<a href="tel:1039355">1039355</a> time=<a href="tel:1525907108">1525907108</a> user_id=839

This company successfully turned people who would have done everything for the company into people willing to shut the place down.
Bingo. Just said the exact same thing to a friend today. The took the most loyal, hardest working pilot group and flipped it on its head. Took one of their most valuable assets, the culture, and crushed it overnight.
RidersRule wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 4:57 pm
[quote=Bede post_id=1039355 time=1525907108 user_id=839

This company successfully turned people who would have done everything for the company into people willing to shut the place down.
Bingo. Just said the exact same thing to a friend today. The took the most loyal, hardest working pilot group and flipped it on its head. Took one of their most valuable assets, the culture, and crushed it overnight.
[/quote]

I respect your views. Whole hardedly. That’s what we are all about. Please respect the opinions of those who bleed teal patriotically. I hope this all comes to a resolution fairly quickly.
[/quote]

For sure Squawk,

I've been a loyal 10 year employee and I am having a hard time understanding how a company that I also bled teel over as well could stab me in the back with Swoop while I am comutting from out west to YYZ with no chance of getting back if Swoop gets off the ground.

My wife literally said the other day...

"Why don't you just quit. It's not worth it"

I told her we'll see how this shakes out first and maybe looking at downgrading to the 87 out of Calgary. All so some Swoop pilots can have my left seat out west for 60 cents on the dollar. It's disheartening
---------- ADS -----------
  

Dry Guy
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:44 pm

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Dry Guy » Wed May 09, 2018 9:06 pm

Just to play the devil's advocate here, does having a loyal group of pilots really matter at a unionized company? There is a contract that will be negotiated that both the pilots and management must followed to the letter.

You guys are all saying that management needs to know that you're not going to be their friends anymore. You won't go the extra mile. That they've lost your loyalty. It actually seems seems they already know this quite well. It's the pilots that need to come to accept that's how it is.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pilotidentity
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 131
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:00 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by pilotidentity » Wed May 09, 2018 10:15 pm

Believe it or not, yes, you can have a loyal group of unionized pilots that want the best for the Company. That is what a good contract is all about. That is why there will be an agreement reached that satisfies both sides. It makes the most sense over the long term.
---------- ADS -----------
  

FL410AV8R
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:56 pm

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by FL410AV8R » Wed May 09, 2018 10:18 pm

cloak wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:49 pm
Mach1 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 2:31 pm
....
Unfortunately, Swoop is not just a pilot problem, not just a WestJet problem, not even just an industry problem. Swoop has huge implications for all labour in Canada. If this gets through, any company in Canada has a road map to just start New Corp. 2.0 and half the wages of the workers. Breaking every trade union in Canada.
....
This IS ALREADY happening in various industries with corporations targeting different segments of the industry with different companies, Loblaws and No Frills; Metro and Food Basics; Canadian Tire...the list goes on. WestJet is doing the same to close the back door to its market share because otherwise they feel other airlines like Flair, Jetlines, etc. will erode their market share...It's like adding another company for that segment of the market while still growing the current company and making it really international, etc. That's their plan...
Firstly comparing grocery store chains to airlines is quite a leap but if you must go there, I don't believe the employees at No Frills make 40% less than their undoubtedly underpaid counterparts at Loblaws.

This isn't about closing the back door on potential competition, it is about reducing pilot costs. They got away with this BS under the previous model but now they have come up against a juggernaut of equal or possibly greater influence than themselves, there is no conduit for supporting their wild assed and unsupported by fact claims that the Swoop experiment will actually be good for anyone other than their own bonuses.

The company has been totally intransigent about anything concerning Swoop, they are not open to modifying their original plan or working with WestJet ALPA pilots in any significant way to mitigate the potential career damage to those on the cusp of upgrade and all those who follow. Because of this, the WestJet pilots have had no option but to play hardball back. Until the strike vote was called there had been zero progress on any CBA articles of any significance, now time is running out. They have had 7 months to get this CBA negotiated and have delayed and obfuscated since the beginning. Between this and the poor Q1 results, the looming pilot shortage and the looming labour strife, this is a crisis (one could say a perfect storm) of WestJet management's own making. They are the ones who are going to have to eat humble pie and get this settled, hopefully they are hungry.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Transonic
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:56 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Transonic » Thu May 10, 2018 4:38 am

Dry Guy wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:06 pm
Just to play the devil's advocate here, does having a loyal group of pilots really matter at a unionized company? There is a contract that will be negotiated that both the pilots and management must followed to the letter.
A loyal employee will always strive to be the best version of themselves. They will go above and beyond their duties to help guests, save fuel, contribute to SPOT all while displaying an infectious demeanor of happiness.

Or, you can have grumpy employees who are here to punch in and punch out.

Just compare United Airlines to Delta.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by Transonic on Thu May 10, 2018 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Transonic
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:56 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Transonic » Thu May 10, 2018 4:58 am

cloak wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:49 pm
Mach1 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 2:31 pm
....
Unfortunately, Swoop is not just a pilot problem, not just a WestJet problem, not even just an industry problem. Swoop has huge implications for all labour in Canada. If this gets through, any company in Canada has a road map to just start New Corp. 2.0 and half the wages of the workers. Breaking every trade union in Canada.
....
This IS ALREADY happening in various industries with corporations targeting different segments of the industry with different companies, Loblaws and No Frills; Metro and Food Basics; Canadian Tire...the list goes on. WestJet is doing the same to close the back door to its market share because otherwise they feel other airlines like Flair, Jetlines, etc. will erode their market share...It's like adding another company for that segment of the market while still growing the current company and making it really international, etc. That's their plan...

Keeping to the grocery store analogy, think Loblaws vs loblaw. In 2008, Loblaws (capital L) rebranded stores as loblaw (no captial L or s). The point of the rebrand was to circumvent unionized labour.

All non-network traffic will go to Swoop. How else are they going to save 200 million dollars annually? That goal was set in the December Investor Day and now moved up to be in place by 2020. Remember when Gregg wanted to save 100 million dollars annually? That brought about the "Sweat the Assets" era. The new guys want to do double that.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Transonic
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:56 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Transonic » Thu May 10, 2018 5:22 am

aerobod wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:30 pm
Having listened in on the analysts call this morning, about the only strategy that would in their eyes boost the stock price at the moment is reduced capacity, reduced costs (less aircraft and workforce needed to service reduced capacity) and increased margin on a smaller market.
Hey aerobod, I know you know where almost all of our 2018 growth is, Swoop. The pilots would love nothing more than to see Swoop disappear, as do the investors.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
KAG
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3576
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:24 pm

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by KAG » Thu May 10, 2018 5:49 am

tincanflyer wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:30 pm
Not sure why at every airline I have worked at, Pilots think they are all at the top of turd island and should always get top dollar and be looked at as the highest level as of everyone in the company. Tough sh!t. Put your head down and do your job. You don’t like it, Go else where. You want to turn WJ into AC, f-ck that. Go to big red. You are a pilot...... a freak’n sky bus driver. Hit your switches and shut your mouth. You are wrecking our company and you are a pilot. A stick jockey. Pull up and be quiet. L@sers! Go picket in your little bitty b!tch pilot hats.
Spoken like someone who wants to be a pilot but never made it. Look at it this way, if you have a bad day at work what happens? If I have a bad day I've made CNN and possibly hundreds killed. Hundreds of millions in liability.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by aerobod » Thu May 10, 2018 7:47 am

Transonic wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 5:22 am
aerobod wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:30 pm
Having listened in on the analysts call this morning, about the only strategy that would in their eyes boost the stock price at the moment is reduced capacity, reduced costs (less aircraft and workforce needed to service reduced capacity) and increased margin on a smaller market.
Hey aerobod, I know you know where almost all of our 2018 growth is, Swoop. The pilots would love nothing more than to see Swoop disappear, as do the investors.
Amy savvy airline investor knows that a properly structured ULCC is where the profit is - Ryanair and Spirit are consistently the most profitable airlines in the world, with Frontier re-structured as a ULCC and getting back into a strong profit position after it's near death experience being squeezed by the Legacy and ULCC carriers at the same time (it used to be very much a WestJet like low cost carrier of a similar size back in 2008 when their business models were similar).

The question is how can Swoop become a properly structured ULCC? In my opinion it should have been completely separate publicly traded company from WestJet, with perhaps WestJet being the main investor. If Swoop isn't successful, the time is right for another ULCC to be successful in Canada, mainly due to the fact that Bill Franke seems to think so and will likely end up deploying some of the 430 A320 Neo aircraft order he has placed for ULCC operations around the world into Canada, when he has picked the right partner.

For those of you who have not seen it, reading and understanding this presentation and it's relevance to WestJet's future is important, if you want to understand why Swoop exists: https://www.westjet.com/assets/wj-web/d ... or-day.pdf

PS, anyone spot the photo-shopped tails of the wrong brand?
---------- ADS -----------
  

TheWingNut
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 10:15 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by TheWingNut » Thu May 10, 2018 8:58 am

Just to throw my two cents in to this conversation - I have been a long time reader of this forum but this particular thread finally decided to make me register and comment - so here we go...

The airline industry has shifted a lot in the past 10 years. ULCC's are doing their best to take away market share from the legacy carriers and create a niche market. I am sure you can all agree to that point. However, as pilot wages have "normalized" to some extent because we have "let them", companies have caught on to the "love of aviation" pilots have and are capitalizing on this.

To explain, WestJet as always, in my eyes, been the one company that has always treated their pilots wonderfully - until recently. Enter Encore. WestJet found a way to enter in to the regional market by offering very low wages to the regional guys because people will work for that money and wanted to work for "WestJet". No different than the Georgian guys. This model works because we all allow it to work, meaning; that if you are not going to work for $31,000 per year - or what ever it is - there are 15 other guys that will. They will work for that because they love aviation!!! Then this "Swoop" - behind the backs of the rank and file lifeline of the company (pilots) is VERY dirty poker on the part of WestJet. At first, I thought that this was a negotiating tactic on the part of WestJet, but this looks to be the real deal.

This to me, is the company capitalizing on the pilots love of aviation and devaluation of their worth by agreeing to work for this money. I hope that makes sense. In short, we, as pilots, have devalued our own worth. We have done this to ourselves through no fault of our own. Each one of us has our own reasons for accepting sub-optimal pay. It could be because of family, because of the need to build time or simply because there were no other options for work. If we want to fix this industry once and for all, then we ALL - every freaking one of us - needs to stick together - refuse crap pay - crap conditions. At that point, where there is no pilot left in the line, the companies will have NO CHOICE but to improve working conditions and pay. This is a pipe dream but it needs to become the reality.

Remember airline travel is not a right, it is a privilege. A privilege offered to those that can afford it. If the company needs to raise ticket prices to keep its employees around and the light on - so be it. Those that cant afford to travel by air...well....I heard Greyhound has some good fares!!!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mach1
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:04 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Mach1 » Thu May 10, 2018 1:35 pm

cloak wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:49 pm
This IS ALREADY happening in various industries with corporations targeting different segments of the industry with different companies, Loblaws and No Frills; Metro and Food Basics; Canadian Tire...the list goes on. WestJet is doing the same to close the back door to its market share because otherwise they feel other airlines like Flair, Jetlines, etc. will erode their market share...It's like adding another company for that segment of the market while still growing the current company and making it really international, etc. That's their plan...
I have no problem with Swoop as a business model, nor the "closing" of any back doors. I have a problem with them paying slightly more than half my wage to do the exact same job on the exact same plane... not a similar plane, not the same brand of plane but the actual same plane being flown today by WJ pilots sporting new paint.

As for the other ULCC carriers, they seem to be able to pay their pilots, why can't WJ? What is so special about that ONE labour group's wages? I am quite certain No Frills; Metro and Food Basics; Canadian Tire all have separate management and support systems. I am very certain it was not just one group who had to give up everything while the others cruised on by untouched.
---------- ADS -----------
  
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1699
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by fish4life » Thu May 10, 2018 3:33 pm

aerobod wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:47 am
Transonic wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 5:22 am
aerobod wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:30 pm
Having listened in on the analysts call this morning, about the only strategy that would in their eyes boost the stock price at the moment is reduced capacity, reduced costs (less aircraft and workforce needed to service reduced capacity) and increased margin on a smaller market.
Hey aerobod, I know you know where almost all of our 2018 growth is, Swoop. The pilots would love nothing more than to see Swoop disappear, as do the investors.
Amy savvy airline investor knows that a properly structured ULCC is where the profit is - Ryanair and Spirit are consistently the most profitable airlines in the world, with Frontier re-structured as a ULCC and getting back into a strong profit position after it's near death experience being squeezed by the Legacy and ULCC carriers at the same time (it used to be very much a WestJet like low cost carrier of a similar size back in 2008 when their business models were similar).

The question is how can Swoop become a properly structured ULCC? In my opinion it should have been completely separate publicly traded company from WestJet, with perhaps WestJet being the main investor. If Swoop isn't successful, the time is right for another ULCC to be successful in Canada, mainly due to the fact that Bill Franke seems to think so and will likely end up deploying some of the 430 A320 Neo aircraft order he has placed for ULCC operations around the world into Canada, when he has picked the right partner.

For those of you who have not seen it, reading and understanding this presentation and it's relevance to WestJet's future is important, if you want to understand why Swoop exists: https://www.westjet.com/assets/wj-web/d ... or-day.pdf

PS, anyone spot the photo-shopped tails of the wrong brand?
I don’t think any WJ pilots would have a problem with Spirit’s wages
---------- ADS -----------
  

Canadianjetpilot
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Canadianjetpilot » Thu May 10, 2018 5:38 pm

KAG wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 5:49 am
tincanflyer wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:30 pm
Not sure why at every airline I have worked at, Pilots think they are all at the top of turd island and should always get top dollar and be looked at as the highest level as of everyone in the company. Tough sh!t. Put your head down and do your job. You don’t like it, Go else where. You want to turn WJ into AC, f-ck that. Go to big red. You are a pilot...... a freak’n sky bus driver. Hit your switches and shut your mouth. You are wrecking our company and you are a pilot. A stick jockey. Pull up and be quiet. L@sers! Go picket in your little bitty b!tch pilot hats.
Spoken like someone who wants to be a pilot but never made it. Look at it this way, if you have a bad day at work what happens? If I have a bad day I've made CNN and possibly hundreds killed. Hundreds of millions in liability.
Spoken like someone who has never been directly responsible for 170 peoples lives.

I think about that 170 every take-off and every landing. Men, women, children and babies - all of whom are MY responsibility.

Oh and if a bus loses a wheel, or has a window pop out or the engine quits/blows up the consequences pale in comparison to it happening on a jetliner.

I suspect you'd be one those people who if facing your mortality on one of those "sky-bus" flights that happened to have something go wrong, you would soil your pants. Then once back on the ground you'd be thanking the "sky-bus" crew that just saved your unthankful a**.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Red1
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:26 am
Location: East of where I was

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Red1 » Thu May 10, 2018 6:34 pm

I have a problem with the Swoop business model and so does the investment community. I mean your stock doesn't drop two dollars in a day because of a bunch of pilots, it does so because the investment community goes WTF. You talk about a pilot shortage, how about a leadership shortage. We are burning cash to start a ULCC and chase after the business market all at the same time, we have no real plan and that's scary. You know how a company fails, when leaders fail. Well we are about to find out really quickly how many of the balls in the air are about to drop. What has this leadership team successfully launched in the last few years... oh yeah nothing. And here we are trying to introduce a low cost carrier, a wide body program, a new premium product as well as mange the Max, Encore oh yes and the pilots.... too many balls, some will drop, I just hope its not the big ball. Swoop is a waste of resources. Want to fight the ULCC's try a ULCC fair not a whole separate airline. The analysts have picked up on this. Management can't deliver on its promises, its missed target after target always placing the blame somewhere else, bad economy in Alberta, Fuel, Pilots.. take a look in the mirror. The investment community has lost faith, and I don't blame them.

Ben Cherniavsky: I still don’t understand the abrupt change in management without any revision to the strategy. Your stocks down 10% today, down the 20 bucks, which is where it was first reached. I’m looking at long-term chart back in 2004. I mean, you guys keep moving forward with these targets that you miss, and telling us that you’re just going to double down. I mean, I don’t -- I think people are -- there is a credibility gap here that’s building. And I think that’s the elephant in the room that someone needs to address.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The force will be with you, always

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by rookiepilot » Thu May 10, 2018 6:42 pm

Red1 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:34 pm
I have a problem with the Swoop business model and so does the investment community. I mean your stock doesn't drop two dollars in a day because of a bunch of pilots, it does so because the investment community goes WTF. You talk about a pilot shortage, how about a leadership shortage. We are burning cash to start a ULCC and chase after the business market all at the same time, we have no real plan and that's scary. You know how a company fails, when leaders fail. Well we are about to find out really quickly how many of the balls in the air are about to drop. What has this leadership team successfully launched in the last few years... oh yeah nothing. And here we are trying to introduce a low cost carrier, a wide body program, a new premium product as well as mange the Max, Encore oh yes and the pilots.... too many balls, some will drop, I just hope its not the big ball. Swoop is a waste of resources. Want to fight the ULCC's try a ULCC fair not a whole separate airline. The analysts have picked up on this. Management can't deliver on its promises, its missed target after target always placing the blame somewhere else, bad economy in Alberta, Fuel, Pilots.. take a look in the mirror. The investment community has lost faith, and I don't blame them.

Ben Cherniavsky: I still don’t understand the abrupt change in management without any revision to the strategy. Your stocks down 10% today, down the 20 bucks, which is where it was first reached. I’m looking at long-term chart back in 2004. I mean, you guys keep moving forward with these targets that you miss, and telling us that you’re just going to double down. I mean, I don’t -- I think people are -- there is a credibility gap here that’s building. And I think that’s the elephant in the room that someone needs to address.

Agree with this. Vision seems very confused.

I would not touch the stock.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Mach1
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:04 am

Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Mach1 » Thu May 10, 2018 7:49 pm

Red1 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:34 pm
I have a problem with the Swoop business model and so does the investment community. I mean your stock doesn't drop two dollars in a day because of a bunch of pilots, it does so because the investment community goes WTF. You talk about a pilot shortage, how about a leadership shortage. We are burning cash to start a ULCC and chase after the business market all at the same time, we have no real plan and that's scary. You know how a company fails, when leaders fail. Well we are about to find out really quickly how many of the balls in the air are about to drop. What has this leadership team successfully launched in the last few years... oh yeah nothing. And here we are trying to introduce a low cost carrier, a wide body program, a new premium product as well as mange the Max, Encore oh yes and the pilots.... too many balls, some will drop, I just hope its not the big ball. Swoop is a waste of resources. Want to fight the ULCC's try a ULCC fair not a whole separate airline. The analysts have picked up on this. Management can't deliver on its promises, its missed target after target always placing the blame somewhere else, bad economy in Alberta, Fuel, Pilots.. take a look in the mirror. The investment community has lost faith, and I don't blame them.

Ben Cherniavsky: I still don’t understand the abrupt change in management without any revision to the strategy. Your stocks down 10% today, down the 20 bucks, which is where it was first reached. I’m looking at long-term chart back in 2004. I mean, you guys keep moving forward with these targets that you miss, and telling us that you’re just going to double down. I mean, I don’t -- I think people are -- there is a credibility gap here that’s building. And I think that’s the elephant in the room that someone needs to address.
Nothing you've said here is incorrect.

Interestingly, this is a similar situation that existed when SD left the company and was replaced by GS. The statement at the time was that we had too many unfinished projects on the go and none of them were getting done because of it. Now we find ourselves in the same situation but at a larger scale.
---------- ADS -----------
  
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!

Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”