Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

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Transonic
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Transonic »

Fanblade wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 10:11 am
Transonic wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 9:21 am I do imagine that Tbaylx and others were led to believe that ALPA had a fair opportunity to crew Swoop yet declined out of greed, not knowing the real negotiations were to begin a month after their hire.
I disagree. I think you would have needed to be living under a rock to not understand that:

1) Another group had laid a contractual claim to the work they were applying for.

2) ALPA published a hiring ban to warn pilots of the risk.

2) They might be used as a pawn in the resulting labor dispute.

3) That the dispute in question would be settled only one of three ways. Strike/lockout/Arbitration. In other words, the dispute would be settled by others, and they would have no input, or say, in the outcome or thier own fate.

They chose complete uncertainty and that uncertainty will remain over them as mediation and arbitration grinds on. Best case now is they are incorporated on to the WJ list DH with the same rights as every new WJ Pilot.

FWIW I hope the best case is the outcome. Turning guns inward is not good for unity in the long run. Unfortunately ALPA, one of the three parties at the table has no responsibility toward them or even the right to defend them even if they wanted to. Thier fate remains in the hands of WJSwoop management. I suspect management will make sure there is an employment offer to avoid litigation. ALPA WJ has no say in who WJ hires.
All excellent points. It's worthy to mention the effect of WestJet's coolaid has on those who are weakest.
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Last edited by Transonic on Sat May 26, 2018 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
altiplano
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by altiplano »

tbaylx wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:48 pm You realize all the OTS guys you’re going to make so uncomfortable are the Chief Pilot, training managers, ACP’s and line indoc/check pilots at Swoop right? Not sure how uncomfortable they’re gonna feel, I suspect they’ll do their jobs like the professionals they are instead of taking it all personally. Perhaps you could try and do the same.
So what's that? 8 or 10 people? I'd be surprised if they kept the position, let alone the job... were the ACPs/Trainers permanent hires? or just contract from Europe to get the airline up and running?

Westjet will keep Swoop separate if they can... easier to divide the group into the future. ALPA will have to be diligent always, creative sometimes in keeping wawcon level.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Transonic wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 2:18 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:00 pm
B757FO wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 12:40 pm

Guess where the other 160 pilots for the 10 airplanes are coming....mine mine mine mine
Image

All of you sound the same with your idle threats. At the end of the day if you make it uncomfortable, those guys will take their type ratings elsewhere...not a big deal for either party.

Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No? Technically management has won because you are doing exactly what they want. Fighting to get those 37s back at whatever cost. It'll end up another rung for the 100s of Q4 drivers at the lower wage structure, exactly where I thought it would.

Focus on your mediations, get your agreement straight. Get the salaries organized for those 87s and then worry about collecting Swoop under your umbrella again.

Horse before the carriage.

S.
Of course you, NCP/Weedpro, would rather focus on 787 wages.

The majority of your previous predictions from all personalities have been wrong.
Ummmmm...lol...what are you talking about?

Last I argued was that Swoop will fall between mainline and Encore, which it will.

I don't recall arguing common employer, but you are welcome to dig it up.

You keep focusing on the small picture. If you don't care about the 87s, perhaps it would have been a better move to have the 87s at Swoop and leave you with the clapped out 37s.

S.
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Bede
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Bede »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:00 pm Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No?
Yes.
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DropTanks
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by DropTanks »

Bede wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 3:46 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:00 pm Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No?
Yes.
Ummmm I’m not quite sure that’s true. All we’ve heard is that Swoop will be flown by WJ pilots. Don’t know if the Wawcon has been settled yet. Did I miss something?
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tbaylx
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by tbaylx »

DropTanks wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 4:02 pm
Bede wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 3:46 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:00 pm Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No?
Yes.
Ummmm I’m not quite sure that’s true. All we’ve heard is that Swoop will be flown by WJ pilots. Don’t know if the Wawcon has been settled yet. Did I miss something?
Wages are going to arbitration and yet to be determined AFAIK.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by KAG »

Canadianjetpilot wrote: Thu May 10, 2018 5:38 pm
KAG wrote: Thu May 10, 2018 5:49 am
tincanflyer wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 11:30 pm Not sure why at every airline I have worked at, Pilots think they are all at the top of turd island and should always get top dollar and be looked at as the highest level as of everyone in the company. Tough sh!t. Put your head down and do your job. You don’t like it, Go else where. You want to turn WJ into AC, f-ck that. Go to big red. You are a pilot...... a freak’n sky bus driver. Hit your switches and shut your mouth. You are wrecking our company and you are a pilot. A stick jockey. Pull up and be quiet. L@sers! Go picket in your little bitty b!tch pilot hats.
Spoken like someone who wants to be a pilot but never made it. Look at it this way, if you have a bad day at work what happens? If I have a bad day I've made CNN and possibly hundreds killed. Hundreds of millions in liability.
Spoken like someone who has never been directly responsible for 170 peoples lives.

I think about that 170 every take-off and every landing. Men, women, children and babies - all of whom are MY responsibility.

Oh and if a bus loses a wheel, or has a window pop out or the engine quits/blows up the consequences pale in comparison to it happening on a jetliner.

I suspect you'd be one those people who if facing your mortality on one of those "sky-bus" flights that happened to have something go wrong, you would soil your pants. Then once back on the ground you'd be thanking the "sky-bus" crew that just saved your unthankful a**.

Nailed it. You must be a gem to fly with. Oh and you have it backwards, we didnt ruin our company, corporate greed did. That and weak minded people who would rather stick their heads in the sand when times get rough, that's when their not being lead around like sheep. Grow a pair.
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Last edited by KAG on Sat May 26, 2018 7:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by moe »

Tbaylx, it’s over bro.
WS flying.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Fanblade »

tbaylx wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:48 pm

You realize all the OTS guys you’re going to make so uncomfortable are the Chief Pilot, training managers, ACP’s and line indoc/check pilots at Swoop right? Not sure how uncomfortable they’re gonna feel, I suspect they’ll do their jobs like the professionals they are instead of taking it all personally. Perhaps you could try and do the same.
You seem to be missing the nuance.

Unless you are on the WJ/Encore seniority list you can't fly at Swoop. At the moment none of the people you mentioned can fly at Swoop. They are essentially grounded until management makes a decision as to if they will offer them employment at which point they join the list.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Bede wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 3:46 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:00 pm Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No?
Yes.
To my understanding, as has been reiterated by Drop Tanks and tbaylx, WAWCON still undecided. Considering you are going to have a leg chopped out via mediation, that means Swoop flying is likely not going to be done at WS mainline wages. BUT you managed to organize Swoop again, that's fantastic, but I thought the other half of the picket line protesting was at 'Westjet wages'. Otherwise, those upgrades aren't really upgrades, and just another lengthy stepping stone for the guys and gals at Encore.

Hence, my last point, you had better organize a solid agreement with the 87s. Treat Swoop like Rouge, where people have the ability to bid back and forth. Not only that but it sounds like y'all need to improve the current WAWCON at mainline, everyone except for say WP2K.

Good luck in mediation, it's going to be tough road. Keep the time short between agreements unless management comes across the line by a fair margin, and don't give up your right to strike as experienced by the crews at Morningstar.

S.
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Fanblade
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Fanblade »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sun May 27, 2018 6:10 am
Bede wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 3:46 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat May 26, 2018 1:00 pm Did you guys manage to get the flying at par for mainline wages? No?
Yes.
To my understanding, as has been reiterated by Drop Tanks and tbaylx, WAWCON still undecided. Considering you are going to have a leg chopped out via mediation, that means Swoop flying is likely not going to be done at WS mainline wages. BUT you managed to organize Swoop again, that's fantastic, but I thought the other half of the picket line protesting was at 'Westjet wages'. Otherwise, those upgrades aren't really upgrades, and just another lengthy stepping stone for the guys and gals at Encore.

Hence, my last point, you had better organize a solid agreement with the 87s. Treat Swoop like Rouge, where people have the ability to bid back and forth. Not only that but it sounds like y'all need to improve the current WAWCON at mainline, everyone except for say WP2K.

Good luck in mediation, it's going to be tough road. Keep the time short between agreements unless management comes across the line by a fair margin, and don't give up your right to strike as experienced by the crews at Morningstar.

S.
Arbitrators don’t move very much from status quo. What they don’t do is hand out pay cuts. They don’t create winners and losers. First contracts are usually just your current working conditions in writing plus a grievance procedure. Keep in mind the arbitrator is only dealing with a dispute between WJ and its pilots. Whatever the WAWCON was at swoop is irrelevant.

IOW the most likely outcome is status quo and inflation raises, except for areas the two sides come to an agreement on.

For WJ management this is a devastating blow to achieving cheap labor at Swoop and why Saretsky is gone. For the WJ pilots it means status quo.

IOW no one wins. Exactly what an arbitrator will try to achieve.

The only way to achieve real change/ gains is through negotiation. It will never come from an arbitrator.

The last chance at negotiation is the mediation process.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by moe »

Some big ticket items like 1:1 YOS and trip/duty rigs have already been agreed to and wont be subject to mediation/arbitration... so not necessarily status quo...
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Fanblade »

Fanblade wrote: Sun May 27, 2018 10:33 am

IOW the most likely outcome is status quo and inflation raises, except for areas the two sides come to an agreement on.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by tallyho »

Tbaylx, you have absolutely no idea of the amount of anger and resentment toward the Swoop pilots from the VAST majority of WJ pilots. The trainers, ACPs, captains and first officers you fly with will mostly be WJ pilots and at some point the CP will be an unsympathetic WJ pilot too. These people will be professional and nothing more. You will not be happy at Swoop regardless of how thick your skin is. It may be Westjets decision for you to leave, it may be the arbitrators, and if not it will be you who decides to leave. Fortunately for you there are lots of jobs available right now.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by cloak »

tallyho wrote: Sun May 27, 2018 6:58 pm Tbaylx, you have absolutely no idea of the amount of anger and resentment toward the Swoop pilots from the VAST majority of WJ pilots. The trainers, ACPs, captains and first officers you fly with will mostly be WJ pilots and at some point the CP will be an unsympathetic WJ pilot too. These people will be professional and nothing more. You will not be happy at Swoop regardless of how thick your skin is. It may be Westjets decision for you to leave, it may be the arbitrators, and if not it will be you who decides to leave. Fortunately for you there are lots of jobs available right now.
It's easy to portray someone as the villain and source of all problems, but imo this is the example of a man who is angry with the guy with tattoos on a motorcycle that his daughter brought home for dinner and is dating! Instead of improving his relationship with his daughter to a) understand her better and have more influence in her decisions and/or b) get to know the tattoo guy that maybe is not such a bad guy once you get to know him! Either way, focus positive energy on improving the system, communications and ultimately broken relationship.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by cloak »

Fanblade wrote: Sun May 27, 2018 10:33 am
Arbitrators don’t move very much from status quo. What they don’t do is hand out pay cuts. They don’t create winners and losers. First contracts are usually just your current working conditions in writing plus a grievance procedure. Keep in mind the arbitrator is only dealing with a dispute between WJ and its pilots. Whatever the WAWCON was at swoop is irrelevant.

IOW the most likely outcome is status quo and inflation raises, except for areas the two sides come to an agreement on.

For WJ management this is a devastating blow to achieving cheap labor at Swoop and why Saretsky is gone. For the WJ pilots it means status quo.

IOW no one wins. Exactly what an arbitrator will try to achieve.

The only way to achieve real change/ gains is through negotiation. It will never come from an arbitrator.

The last chance at negotiation is the mediation process.
By and large you are correct that arbitrators don't venture too far from the middle ground, but there is precedent for a pay cut, with Consolidated at YYZ where fuelers did not accept the company's modest raise and after a lengthy process went to arbitration and were awarded a pay-cut, yes pay-cut! Not very common, but could happen. The arbitrator argued that the industry had changed and they were being paid too much.

As for pay at Swoop, WestJet can successfully argue in arbitration that it needs the lower cost in order to compete with Sunwing, Transat, etc plus Rouge has already set a precedent. Air Canada pilots also fly Rouge airplanes, but not at the same pay and conditions. I'm not sure if your union has already settled this issue but just to say that it can happen.

However you are absolutely correct that the best way to achieve meaningful and lasting gain is through building strong relationships and negotiations.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by av8ts »

cloak wrote: Sun May 27, 2018 9:47 pm
tallyho wrote: Sun May 27, 2018 6:58 pm Tbaylx, you have absolutely no idea of the amount of anger and resentment toward the Swoop pilots from the VAST majority of WJ pilots. The trainers, ACPs, captains and first officers you fly with will mostly be WJ pilots and at some point the CP will be an unsympathetic WJ pilot too. These people will be professional and nothing more. You will not be happy at Swoop regardless of how thick your skin is. It may be Westjets decision for you to leave, it may be the arbitrators, and if not it will be you who decides to leave. Fortunately for you there are lots of jobs available right now.
It's easy to portray someone as the villain and source of all problems, but imo this is the example of a man who is angry with the guy with tattoos on a motorcycle that his daughter brought home for dinner and is dating! Instead of improving his relationship with his daughter to a) understand her better and have more influence in her decisions and/or b) get to know the tattoo guy that maybe is not such a bad guy once you get to know him! Either way, focus positive energy on improving the system, communications and ultimately broken relationship.
You left some parts out. You forgot to mention this guy belongs to the outlaw motorcycle gang “The Scabs”. And he not here to date your daughter, he’s here to steal your motorcycle
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by mbav8r »

I’m wondering if tbaylx has received his pink slip yet, it’s such a shame that such a standup guy has to find a new job, maybe a legal name change will at least get you off the blacklist. I would leave your short stint at swoop off your resume though.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by Jumbo744 »

mbav8r wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 8:01 am I’m wondering if tbaylx has received his pink slip yet, it’s such a shame that such a standup guy has to find a new job, maybe a legal name change will at least get you off the blacklist. I would leave your short stint at swoop off your resume though.
You keep implying that swoop pilots have lost their jobs. As much as you would like to see this happen, it has not.
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Re: Gloom & Doom Q2 outlook...are you kidding?

Post by DropTanks »

Jumbo744 wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 8:23 am
mbav8r wrote: Mon May 28, 2018 8:01 am I’m wondering if tbaylx has received his pink slip yet, it’s such a shame that such a standup guy has to find a new job, maybe a legal name change will at least get you off the blacklist. I would leave your short stint at swoop off your resume though.
You keep implying that swoop pilots have lost their jobs. As much as you would like to see this happen, it has not.
Perhaps not yet but the WJ pilots are foaming at the mouth and calling for their heads. Many calls and letters to the MEC expressing this. Remember that remaining items are still to be negotiated before going to arbitration. If the membership really wants them gone then the company will use the “Dirty Thirty” as a bargaining chip. Failing that, then yes it’ll be up to the arbitrator where they end up. However they will never end up anywhere higher than the BOTL on our list regardless of what position the arbitrator allows them to keep. Best case for them is they retain their positions and live with being hated (and I mean HATED) by all. Enjoy your day fellas. Don’t kid yourselves, every single WJ pilot knows exactly who the Pukesters are, where they came from etc...they can’t hide their scarlet letters.
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