WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

[Maritimer]

I think the devil's in the details on this one. I have yet to see any piece of communication that Westjet pilots will be flying Swoop aircraft at Westjet wages. Given this whole thing kicked off because Westjet wanted pilots to take 2 year leaves of absences to go fly for Swoop making next to nothing can it really be considered a victory if after all this it just ends up being Westjet pilots bidding back and forth to Swoop and flying Rouge style on B scale wages that closely resemble the company's initial wage offer for Swoop?

The airline will have a pretty easy time arguing to the arbitrator that rock bottom wages are required to compete in this market, and that it won't result in any job loses and better yet First Officers will be able to gain upgrades. As you mentioned the exact same script as rouge.

Hopefully it's a short term deal which will allow the members to fill out committees, hold elections and find areas which they most feel need to urgently be addressed.

Overall I imagine this is a huge relief to most westjetters, those who were actually prepared to strike in order to achieve an industry leading contract will be disappointed, as that no longer going to happen, as will those on the outside who didn't stand to lose anything from a strike or lockout. It's a shame that things took this long only to end up in from of an arbitrator, but at least the process has and will usher out the door any manager/executive who is unable to perform their duties under a revised union/company relationship.

This is basically all conjecture and has no merit.

Only items that haven’t already been agreed upon and won’t be final by the end of negotiations will go to an arbitrator. Rumour has it that a lot of gains have been made however there are a lot of details that have yet to emerge.

For WJ pilots this isn’t just about a $$ per hour increase. There are many things going on here, Swoop/RIGs/perdiems/YOS just to name a few.

We also cannot forget that this is a first contract for a newly unionized workforce within a company that doesn't like dealing with unions. There will be gains, there will also be a loss here and there but all in all it will be a positive outcome.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Yup me too stoopid. Good arguemint

[Mostly Harmless]

truedude
JohnnyHotRocks

I have no idea why you two are arguing about something that happened 10 years ago. Nothing you say here will change the past unless one of you has a time machine... in which case, can I borrow that for a few minutes? Maybe you two could argue this out over at the Jazz forum. Where one discusses Jazz issues.

I'm genuinely concerned about a Board of Directors who would shut the doors on their own profitable company rather than negotiate. There is no business case to be made here for the lockout and I would say it is a failure of the fiduciary duty of the BOD to take care of the shareholder's interests when running the company. While it's convenient to blame a single personality, say that of the chairman of the board, it is obvious that the BOD was NOT doing it's job and should be replaced in its entirety. This was a room full of 4 year olds having a temper tantrum with my money (shares).

[bogey]

Swoop pilot list is no longer on Westnet

[TheStig]

This is basically all conjecture and has no merit.

Only items that haven’t already been agreed upon and won’t be final by the end of negotiations will go to an arbitrator. Rumour has it that a lot of gains have been made however there are a lot of details that have yet to emerge.

For WJ pilots this isn’t just about a $$ per hour increase. There are many things going on here, Swoop/RIGs/perdiems/YOS just to name a few.

We also cannot forget that this is a first contract for a newly unionized workforce within a company that doesn't like dealing with unions. There will be gains, there will also be a loss here and there but all in all it will be a positive outcome.

I love the internet. My post is without merit and all conjecture, and you start by saying “rumour has it...” Could you point out what I’ve posted that you disagree with? Do you not believe that swoop will be flown under terms less favourable than mainline? That most at Westjet are relieved with this solution?

What is a positive outcome to you may be a total failure to someone else, for what it’s worth, I see this as best case scenario given the path both sides have been taking.

[altiplano]

Does anyone know how many Swoop pilots were on the property? What was the breakdown between contract/permanent?

Just curious: are you saying swoop pilots have been laid off? Where did you get this information from?

I haven't said anything. I was asking a question.

[Maritimer]

Stig, I accidentally quoted he wrong post. My bad

The conjecture would be the assumption that we are back at square one circa 3-4 months ago.

I use the term “rumour has it” because there has been a lot of chatter on the ALPA forum as well as personal emails from very credible sources within the MEC/LEC but of course, until it is sent out as an official communication you won’t see anyone mentioning it here.

To be honest, when I reread your post there isn’t much to disagree with other than the company having an easy time convincing the mediator that rock bottom wages are the only way this can proceed. It is much more complicated than that.

I’m sure we all expect there to be some sort of discount regarding the swoop flying (unfortunately) but it won’t be anywhere as awful as what the Corp first offered and then decided to hire OTS folks for. Again, not perfect but we had to protect a serious B-scale and union vs non-union situation within this ONE company to the best of our abilities.

[altiplano]

I'd be careful treading into two tiers of wawcon...

It may seem tempting to trade it off for gains on the mainline contract, but later it will hold you back from securing gains, stall further improvements, and turn into a problem with division as the Swoop fleet and numbers grow.

IMO you are better to maintain one contract today and move forward together for future gains.

Also with arbitration - WJ is a profitable company in a booming industry and the comparators across the continent are turning record profits with labour leading your wawcon - I wouldn't fear it. Flair and Sunwing aren't your comparators - AC, Southwest, Alaska, Spirit, etc. those are your benchmarks for an arbitrator.

[cloak]

Must say it is very sad to witness the animosity shown by some to a small group of pilots who have accepted jobs offered on the open market at industry level (Sunwing and Transat), even AFTER supposedly they have declared victory for themselves! Talk about lack of magnanimity! Play the ball, not the player.

[altiplano]

Maybe you grew up playing croquet...

You always take the player.

b28113087a271ef0f389e5e49cf95c53.gif (1018.13 KiB) Viewed 1994 times

[WF9F]

Maybe you grew up playing croquet...

You always take the player.

b28113087a271ef0f389e5e49cf95c53.gif

Exactly

[.80@410]

Maybe you grew up playing croquet...

You always take the player.

b28113087a271ef0f389e5e49cf95c53.gif

Exactly

What he said . ^^
They weren't innocent bystanders . They were snakes who thought they could further their careers by screwing a bunch of their peers. They gambled. Now hopefully they lose.

[Jean-Pierre]

I can't tell if this is master level maneuver by management. Everyone here is patting them self on the back for accepting a B-scale.

[moe]

Who said b-scale. It’s WS work for WS wages. That’s the word.

[cloak]

I can't tell if this is master level maneuver by management. Everyone here is patting them self on the back for accepting a B-scale.

Exactly! Similar thing happened during Canada 3000 and ALPA negotiations, that went from initially "industry standard" and "pay parity" with Air Canada to 25% pay cut, lay-off out of seniority and eventually bankruptcy and two days later ALPA shutting down their web site! When a group is so focused on screwing over another group, they forget what the real objectives are...they focus so much on the player as they say that next thing they know the ball is in the back of the net(to give a different sport analogy)! Unless cooler heads prevail quickly and bring things under control, this does not bode well for WestJet. Although, no one knows who really is posting ostensibly as WestJet pilots!!

[confusedalot]

Oh boy, it has been asserted that Canada 3000 had a pilot union and all of the complications were revolving around that.

Sorry to be so obvious. Canada 3000 never had a union. I worked there. It is an interesting situation to witness history being rewritten by those that have no clue. Human nature is indeed an interesting animal.

Now, in my myopic and old view of the world, seems to me that swoop is nothing more than a competitive knee jerk reaction to rouge. Somehow, by reading this thread, the astute airplane drivers have determined that swoop is a tactic to lower pilot wages and have nothing to do with real world competition.

Way back when old farts like me started to fly when they were young, there were numerous future choices as far as airline operators were concerned. And that was IF you wanted to commit yourself to that particular segment of aviation. There was sooo......much more going on, depending on your situation, sometimes it was not worth even taking an airline job. What a heretical thought process, right? As heinous and as it sounds, big red was not the be all and end all, sure it was a big company, just like the post office.

And fast forward to 2018, everyone is clamouring to be like big red. You want the mainline conditions, but forget that you just may end up with rouge conditions. That fantastic world of huge money and huge pensions for life in legacy air canada is....GONE........

Then I see the Westjet pilots. The income levels are not exactly poverty wages, to say the least. I never made that kind of money. Not even when I was an expat for 3 years. Yet, seems like they want conditions that no longer exist anymore at big red.

I am certainly not advocating that westjet will disappear because of the current troubles. I do however find that many in the industry do not appreciate the hard facts of operating a complex system in a very cutthroat business sector.

Bottom line, this old fart who is not even in the business any longer is somewhat concerned about seeing this country end up with mapleflot as the sole provider of airline services. For the most dumbest of reasons. But hey, old news, was born of eastern european parents who fled the place because of autocratic and totalitarian systems who had total control over everyone.............I guess I have a problem.

[Diadem]

I can't tell if this is master level maneuver by management. Everyone here is patting them self on the back for accepting a B-scale.

From the info that's been released, there hasn't been an agreement on wages. It doesn't sound to me like the MEC agreed to anything other than mediation and arbitration in exchange for Swoop flying being brought in-house; that is to say, the only thing that was given up to have Swoop flying done by WestJet was the possibility of a strike. In exchange for taking labour action off the table, management conceded on who will be doing the Swoop flying. WAWCON is still to be negotiated, and nothing else, as far as we can tell, has been given up by the pilots, so I really have a hard time buying that this was some coup de grace by management. On the contrary, it seems like the company made a huge concession to avoid disrupting flights.

[FenceSitter]

It looks to me like the pilots accepted the best possible scenario with a very real possibility of the airline being shut down out of spite by CB and his hand-picked board (so I've heard).
CB hates listening so.much that he was willing to direct the company to cause great losses to the shareholders just to maintain his control. I would almost wager that the hard game he played will cause his loss of position at some point in the near future. It will be covered up with age or health or something convenient along those lines but CB just blew all the good face he had...it's just a matter of time before he is shown the same door he has shown so many others.

[GRK2]

"Canada 3000 never had a union. I worked there."

Now THAT'S the biggest whopper I've seen in days! I don't believe you did work there...simply because of your statement. Whatever else you might claim is now simply BS, plain and simple.

I DID work there. Right. Until. The. End.

Now, sorry about the drift. Fingers crossed for all you WS boys n girls who are making things happen.

[atphat]

I’m not sure anyone here understands what went on. Lol. It’s not a B scale. It’s one set of working conditions. If it’s a B scale at Swoop it’ll be a B scale at Mainline. i.e if it moves to reserve or 18 days worked, it’ll be the same at both WJ and Swoop.

If the WJ pilot group was willing to accept a B scale to fly Swoop, they would have already been flying Swoop on the B scale. Something the WJPA would have gladly handed them.

There will be changes no doubt. But it won’t be an AC Mainline / Rouge relationship.

Capiche?