WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

[eyebrow737]

So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?

[eyebrow737]

You think wrong. I know a few of the captains and they were all widebody captains flying overseas for big airlines. Some are even ACPs. I also believe a number may have been captains at AC express feeders.

I said "most" you said "a few".

I only know a few

[JohnnyHotRocks]

So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?

You will not get an honest answer to this

[Rezy]

So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?

You will not get an honest answer to this

This is not at all a fair comparison and that’s why you don’t get it.
No one applied to Swoop because their company folded.
You don’t mention that the “other” airline was in a labor dispute.

The reason this is an issue is because Swoopsters took advantage of an ongoing labor dispute.

[eyebrow737]

This is not at all a fair comparison and that’s why you don’t get it.
No one applied to Swoop because their company folded.
You don’t mention that the “other” airline was in a labor dispute.
The reason this is an issue is because Swoopsters took advantage of an ongoing labor dispute.

Thought not. Anyone else got the cajones to answer the question to answer the question being honest with themselves?

[Diadem]

So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?

Honestly, if I were in that situation, I probably would try to get a DEC spot if one were available. But I'm not, and neither are you. What airline, exactly, laid you off? What set of circumstances forced you to find a new job in this environment?

[Fanblade]

So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?

In 2004, the lowest point in AC’s CCAA, WJ had many AC pilots resumes on file. I know because I was one of them. Yup it would suck to have started over again. But it does happen. I wouldn’t have been the first and certainly not the last.

I don’t remember any C3 folk trying to jump the que either and that collapse happened at the start of a bad recession.

This is simple. Get in line. If you picked the wrong line because the cashier was slow....too bad. Wait it out or go to the back of another line.

If you don’t ever go to the back of the line? You will never reach the front.

In this industry if you get in line your progress is slow. If you don’t get in line your progress is usually zero.

The better the job the slower the progression.

Refusing to get in line and then complaining about your progress?

Fools game

[eyebrow737]

So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?

Honestly, if I were in that situation, I probably would try to get a DEC spot if one were available. But I'm not, and neither are you. What airline, exactly, laid you off? What set of circumstances forced you to find a new job in this environment?

Personally I wouldn't go to swoop or westjet for any reason, but I have made my views on that clear.

Good on you for being honest.

There may be some people that have made that decision for reasons you have, maybe returning from overseas maybe because they did lose a job somewhere.

Whatever the reason, life is not black or white, evil or good. Some of the people turning into that on these forums are nothing but pawns of the system in my opinion.

Turning it into an us vs them, is the problem with the whole union solution. For some of us that have worked overseas can see that, maybe some of you who were there 10 years ago at westjet might also remember that.

[eyebrow737]

So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?

In 2004, the lowest point in AC’s CCAA, WJ had many AC pilots resumes on file. I know because I was one of them. Yup it would suck to have started over again. But it does happen. I wouldn’t have been the first and certainly not the last.

I don’t remember any C3 folk trying to jump the que either and that collapse happened at the start of a bad recession.

This is simple. Get in line. If you picked the wrong line because the cashier was slow....too bad. Wait it out or go to the back of another line.

If you don’t ever go to the back of the line? You will never reach the front.

In this industry if you get in line your progress is slow. If you don’t get in line your progress is usually zero.

The better the job the slower the progression.

Refusing to get in line and then complaining about your progress?

Fools game

Were you an FO, applying for an FO position? Not much of a sacrifice there, hell you might even have got a pay rise. 20 year captain, to turboprop FO, that's a different story.

Plenty of C3, Zoom, Canjet captains went direct entry to each one of those airlines, and moved on direct entry to others including Cargojet or overseas. The queue rules are hardly universal and mostly only apply here in North America and some Legacy airlines depending on availability (Qantas were hiring DEC as in 2008-09). I worked for over 20 years in a number of overseas going captain to captain. I won't be surprised if Sunwing or AT start hiring DEC in the near future.

Just because they are your rules, does that mean really everyone in the world should abide by them? Morally, I know if you were command and offered command at westjet you would have taken it. To say otherwise is asinine

[Legacy]

True, eyebrow, when the current FOs don’t qualify for the left seat. But at this time this is the way it’s in Canada. Don’t go comparing us to overseas. Otherwise you are just cherry picking. We would be making $$ like they do overseas according to your argument. Hey I see your point. Seniority has huge flaws in our system. But we did it to ourselves. IMHO there should be a matrix pay. You get so much $$ for PIC, so much for heavy time, etc. Screw seniority when it comes to pay for starters. It has handcuffed us pilots in North America for so long. If you know you can jump ship and go to AC and take zero pay cut or visa versa it I’m all for it. Would give the execs a lot less bargaining power too knowing you can just say “see ya”. That’s just starters where seniority hurts us. But you want to change the way things are done in North America? Fill yer boots convincing everyone else. Until then, I’d suggest continuing with how it’s done in here.

[Fanblade]

The queue rules are hardly universal and mostly only apply here in North America and some Legacy airlines depending on availability (Qantas were hiring DEC as in 2008-09).

We are not talking about the universe. We are talking about the rules here in Canada. In Canada you have labor laws to deal with. Seniority ( wait your turn ) in one shape or form is enshrined in our labor agreements and law. Notice the very first thing the WJ arbitrator did was force all parties to apply for common employer and for ALPA to apply for Swoop certification. That will allow the arbitrator to glue the WJ and Swoop seniority list together.

Get it. The arbitrator is forcibly placing everyone in a que. Seniority is institutionalize in this country. It creates fair progression, eliminates back stabbing and stops employers from undue manipulation and reprisals. I have watched arbitrators enforce seniority on employees who didn’t even want it. Rouge FA’s back in 2014.

There is nothing wrong with Direct entry anything so long as the job was offered to everyone qualified on the property first. In fact my guess is it may happen yet again at AC on the Cseries so long as the economy keeps chugging along.

Nevertheless, if you want to work in Canada at one of the better aviation jobs? Get in line.

If getting in line isn’t for you, you should be looking elsewhere.

[eyebrow737]

The queue rules are hardly universal and mostly only apply here in North America and some Legacy airlines depending on availability (Qantas were hiring DEC as in 2008-09).

We are not talking about the universe. We are talking about the rules here in Canada. In Canada you have labor laws to deal with. Seniority ( wait your turn ) in one shape or form is enshrined in our labor agreements and law. Notice the very first thing the WJ arbitrator did was force all parties to apply for common employer and for ALPA to apply for Swoop certification. That will allow the arbitrator to glue the WJ and Swoop seniority list together.

Get it. Seniority is institutionalize in this country. It creates fair progression, eliminates back stabbing and stops employers from undue manipulation and reprisals. I have watched arbitrators enforce seniority on employees who didn’t even want it. Rouge FA’s back in 2014.

There is nothing wrong with Direct entry anything so long as the job was offered to everyone qualified on the property first. In fact my guess it happens at AC on the Cseries so long as the economy keeps chugging along.

If you want to work in Canada at one of the better aviation jobs? Get in line.

If getting in line isn’t what you want go elsewhere.

Fanblade, it's not true in Canada. As evidenced plenty of other companies here have direct entry. As mentioned both sunwing and AT might have DEC soon. And Cargojet has done.

My point is two fold. The system has obviously failed Canada with some of the worst paid pilots in the world...mostly because of people saying... That's the way we have done it and that's the way we do it.

Secondly is to try and tone down some of the hate here against other pilots accusing others of high crimes and misdemeanors when they in every case would do exactly the same if in a similar position.

Not agreeing or supporting the swoop pilots at all, however the people saying that the common good is Paramount, would disregard that in many circumstances.

[altiplano]

Eyebrow, those places you mention have DEC because of a skill shortage on their property. No one, or very few, right seat there long enough to qualify experience wise for those jobs... that's the case overseas too...

But that's apparently not the case at Westjet with FOs on 6 or 7 or more years waiting for their turn for that left seat, many of whom came into that job after years at the cargojets and sunwings and flightcrafts, etc...

[Fanblade]

Fanblade, it's not true in Canada. As evidenced plenty of other companies here have direct entry. As mentioned both sunwing and AT might have DEC soon. And Cargojet has done.

For about the third time in this thread. There is absolutely nothing wrong with DEC so long as it was offered in house to anyone qualified first.. It is not very commen in Canada but has happened. I suspect it will become more common as pilots become short. Nevertheless the DEC still joins the bottom of the list. They still live with the seniority system once on property. Year one pay. Last choice vacation. Last choice of schedule. Risk of forced reduction to RP if reductions happen. First one furloughed etc.

My point is two fold. The system has obviously failed Canada with some of the worst paid pilots in the world...mostly because of people saying... That's the way we have done it and that's the way we do it.

Now your just jumping to conclusions. Throwing the baby out with the bath water. The seniority system has no direct correlation with pay. If that were true US carriers would pay less as well. We are some of the worst paid pilots because of a myriad of reasons for which I don’t have the time to recite. But some of the largest factors have been well beyond our control. Air Canada is just now wiping off the last pieces of its legacy pre deregulation crown corporation cost structure and culture. From the late 80’s to early 2012 there was not a single legacy Airline in Canada ( AC and it’s previous entities) that was not brushing up against insolvency. Today’s environment is the first time since deregulation ( 30 years) that the stones we work for have blood to give.

That alone is the single biggest reason why our pay is where it is. The next largest reason is the cost of operation in Canada from taxation to airport fees. This will permanently prevent us from reaching the pay of our foreign peers. Too much cream is coming off the top in this country. But hey that is what you get for living in a quasi socialist country where income redistribution is used as a social safety/welfare net.

Secondly is to try and tone down some of the hate here against other pilots accusing others of high crimes and misdemeanors when they in every case would do exactly the same if in a similar position.

There are currently lots of jobs out there for qualified pilots. There is no “food shortage” as you put it to make people do things they wish they didn’t have to do.

I get your point though. We look differently at someone who steals out of hunger, than we do at someone who steals because they just want it. The problem with your analogy is currently no one is hungry.

Hate is also a strong word and IMO not what I read here. What I read is indignation and anger. Both understandable considering what transpired.

[Rezy]

This is not at all a fair comparison and that’s why you don’t get it.
No one applied to Swoop because their company folded.
You don’t mention that the “other” airline was in a labor dispute.
The reason this is an issue is because Swoopsters took advantage of an ongoing labor dispute.

Thought not. Anyone else got the cajones to answer the question to answer the question being honest with themselves?

Umm, yes I would take that position. How many people are upset that Encore has been hiring DEC for over a year now?? NONE. Pay attention to what’s actually going on. Your example is not a fair comparison.

[tbaylx]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

[RidersRule]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

.

[Transonic]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

Those bidding for CA positions will be doing it based on the assumption that pay and working conditions will be much better under the new CBA.

You can thank ALPA in advance for your bump in future FO earnings and conditions.

[Bede]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

No, they'll bid it because they have faith that they will be industry standard within a few month. No thanks to you...

[tbaylx]

On the same note now that the Swoop positions are being offered to Westjet pilots at Swoop terms and conditions, will no one at Westjet will bid them because it's bringing down the industry and undercutting other 737 operators with bottom feeding wages and anyone there more than a year or two is making more money than a Swoop captain anyway?

Or, will pilots bid the position regardless because for whatever reason it suits their circumstances?

Those bidding for CA positions will be doing it based on the assumption that pay and working conditions will be much better under the new CBA.

You can thank ALPA in advance for your bump in future FO earnings and conditions.

Much like swoop pilots took the job based on the assumption that it was going to grow and provide good long term pay and working conditions.